It's okay, didn't you read? Pff said lloyd played good. 

There's no need for PFF to confirm or deny that he played good. Just use your eyes and understand what you're seeing. He's a good player.

Even if he did, and I'm not conceding that, what about the other high picks he's spent on linebacker that have lead us to pushing money out to keep Oluokun?

Just because pff (and you) say Lloyd played well doesn't mean the drafting has been satisfactory, or even that Lloyd was worth the picks that were used to take him.

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There's no need for PFF to confirm or deny that he played good. Just use your eyes and understand what you're seeing. He's a good player.

Even if he did, and I'm not conceding that, what about the other high picks he's spent on linebacker that have lead us to pushing money out to keep Oluokun?

Just because pff (and you) say Lloyd played well doesn't mean the drafting has been satisfactory, or even that Lloyd was worth the picks that were used to take him.

The Jags brass drafted a backup ILB too high in Muma.
A sin, but not too egregious. He has started four games and played significant snaps in 5 or 6 more. 
I didn't like the pick - but I sort of get it. LBs get hurt. You want a solid backup. 

Picking Ventrel Miller in the 4th last year was absolutely asinine IMO. 
I hate that move. 
But... it's a fourth round pick at the end of the day. so ... *shrug*

Lloyd has become a very good ILB. I don't understand the hate. 
Good pick, good player.

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Even if he did, and I'm not conceding that, what about the other high picks he's spent on linebacker that have lead us to pushing money out to keep Oluokun?

Just because pff (and you) say Lloyd played well doesn't mean the drafting has been satisfactory, or even that Lloyd was worth the picks that were used to take him.

The Jags brass drafted a backup ILB too high in Muma.
A sin, but not too egregious. He has started four games and played significant snaps in 5 or 6 more. 
I didn't like the pick - but I sort of get it. LBs get hurt. You want a solid backup. 

Picking Ventral Miller in the 4th last year was absolutely asinine IMO. 
I hate that move. 
But... it's a fourth round pick at the end of the day. so ... *shrug*

Lloyd has become a very good ILB. I don't understand the hate. 
Good pick, good player.

Muma was said to be a pure BPA pick. Miller? well I don't have any idea.  My theory on both picks is a situation that can be run into even doing mock drafts. Tell me it hasn't happen to you doing mock drafts?

It is your pick. You scan your list of players and all that are graded in this area are already off YOUR board. You try to trade back, but the fish just are not biting. So basically it is "a big rock, you and a hard place.  After saying "ah poop" you are faced with making a less than optimal decision.

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

Stop the Devin Lloyd hate. Man took a major step last year and actually graded out higher than Foye at PFF.

And Muma? and Miller?

I think Muma is an overall better middle linebacker than Lloyd...so that can be taken 1 of 2 ways.    If either Lloyd or Foye sustain and injury I don't expect a drop off at the MLB spot.

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Black Jaguar: Yeah, it's a thing.

It was always the Jags!!!!

The bulk of the strategy with muma, was foye was meant to get cut this season but he turned out to be a better player than we expected, and I think miller was probably insurance incase Lloyd didn’t improve , not defending either pick but I can see when planning a roster for the future it probably made some sense and can see how they came to the decisions

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Muma reminds me of a Tom McMannus, and I think he should play goal line defense just like Tommy.

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Incredible admission of horrible drafting. Baalke wasted a ton of valuable draft capital on linebacker and still has to keep tons of money tied up in it because he's managed to find nothing with those picks.

It's sickening that Khan can't evaluate the jobs people under him are doing better.

I still don't think that's the case.

Lloyd is playing well. Muma hasn't HAD to see the field. I like having some depth in case the unfortunate happens. Quarterman was reserve/ST guy, and now he's gone. That might be Miller, that might be Muma. That might be the guy we darft this year (blasphemy, I know.) You can't exist with only 2 LB on the payroll. When you have guys like Oluokun and Lloyd in front of you, it's going to be hard to steal playing time from them. To me, this is much ado about nothing.

Oluokun is one of the best LB in the game, if you can keep him on the cheap, why wouldn't you?

I mean, I guess we could just pursue veterans in FA every year. That won't bode well for long-term success, though.

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Led the NFL in solo tackles for the last 3 seasons. No other player in Jaguars history has done that, except Olu.

He bout to make the Pro Bowl this season with that improved Dline.

If he can't make the pro bowl on what he's done any of the last three years he just isn't going to win that stupid, biased, popularity contest.

....still don't understand why anyone holds the probe in any regard at this point. It is so very, very meaningless as an evaluation of success.

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The bulk of the strategy with muma, was foye was meant to get cut this season but he turned out to be a better player than we expected, and I think miller was probably insurance incase Lloyd didn’t improve , not defending either pick but I can see when planning a roster for the future it probably made some sense and can see how they came to the decisions

got a source on that?

IMO Muma was 1000% pure value pick. He was slotted to go in the second at the latest, and I don't think anyone in the room expected him to be available when our pick came up.

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The bulk of the strategy with muma, was foye was meant to get cut this season but he turned out to be a better player than we expected, and I think miller was probably insurance incase Lloyd didn’t improve , not defending either pick but I can see when planning a roster for the future it probably made some sense and can see how they came to the decisions

got a source on that?

IMO Muma was 1000% pure value pick. He was slotted to go in the second at the latest, and I don't think anyone in the room expected him to be available when our pick came up.

I'd say that's in the "likely" category, the original contract was structured to replace him this year. That's he's been so great in the middle is a testament to the restructure and extension. This talk also really ignores that Caldwell's scheme called for 4 linebackers an having Foye/Lloyd/Muma was taking care of the middle with a guy like Shaq or Miller there as Teams and deep depth. Had Miller not been on IR then Shaq isn't here last year. There's nothing inherently bad except that Miller was overdrafted for a backup/teams player.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

The issue isn’t taking Muma. The issue is taking him at pick 70 after already paying a lot of money to Foye and then trading up for Lloyd.

Muma has yet to return anything of value for that high investment. Maybe someone gets hurt (yay! That’s what we have to hope for!) and Muma steps up. But if everyone is healthy, your top 70 pick never sees the field for 3 years.

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The issue isn’t taking Muma. The issue is taking him at pick 70 after already paying a lot of money to Foye and then trading up for Lloyd.

Muma has yet to return anything of value for that high investment. Maybe someone gets hurt (yay! That’s what we have to hope for!) and Muma steps up. But if everyone is healthy, your top 70 pick never sees the field for 3 years.

That's what I said a few posts ago.

Drafted a backup too high.

I have also stated (like others) that they were apparently thinking long term and likely viewing Oluokun as a high-end stop gap - and Muma/Lloyd would allow them to get cheaper there after two years when Foye's deal was up. 

That didn't work out as planned because they have decided Oluokun/Lloyd are their best options and they are spending to keep it that way. 

My biggest gripe with this strategy is that they needed starters at 5 other positions yet spent that pick on a backup ILB that may become a starter in year 3 (and now is still not a starter in year 3) 

As much as that bugged me, I kinda got over it, and then they selected Miller last year and I just threw my hands in the air.

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Foye is awesome


https://twitter.com/1010XL/status/1775990268228948355

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Foye is awesome


https://twitter.com/1010XL/status/1775990268228948355

Definitely one of the best free agent signings this team has had. As a whole, that 2022 group was excellent with Foye, Engram, Kirk and Zay all being stand-outs. Key and Williams were also good additions contributing much to the 2022 playoff run despite no longer being here. The biggest disappointments were Foley Fatukasi and Scherff who did not meet their expectations partially due to not being 100% healthy much of the time. Scherff's re-negotiated deal was very surprising, but the $5 million savings in cap space savings obviously motivated Baalke to keep him around for most likely one final season. Still a very good free agent class overall.

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Foye is awesome


https://twitter.com/1010XL/status/1775990268228948355

Definitely one of the best free agent signings this team has had. As a whole, that 2022 group was excellent with Foye, Engram, Kirk and Zay all being stand-outs. Key and Williams were also good additions contributing much to the 2022 playoff run despite no longer being here. The biggest disappointments were Foley Fatukasi and Scherff who did not meet their expectations partially due to not being 100% healthy much of the time. Scherff's re-negotiated deal was very surprising, but the $5 million savings in cap space savings obviously motivated Baalke to keep him around for most likely one final season. Still a very good free agent class overall.

If Scherff can stay mostly healthy this year, replacing Fortner with Morse and a 2nd year Harrioson on the opposite side we could possibly see Scherffs best year in Jax.  Just need Scherff to have a good and healthy off season and keep his body in good shape.

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Definitely one of the best free agent signings this team has had. As a whole, that 2022 group was excellent with Foye, Engram, Kirk and Zay all being stand-outs. Key and Williams were also good additions contributing much to the 2022 playoff run despite no longer being here. The biggest disappointments were Foley Fatukasi and Scherff who did not meet their expectations partially due to not being 100% healthy much of the time. Scherff's re-negotiated deal was very surprising, but the $5 million savings in cap space savings obviously motivated Baalke to keep him around for most likely one final season. Still a very good free agent class overall.

If Scherff can stay mostly healthy this year, replacing Fortner with Morse and a 2nd year Harrioson on the opposite side we could possibly see Scherffs best year in Jax.  Just need Scherff to have a good and healthy off season and keep his body in good shape.

That's what Baalke and Pederson are banking on. They still will need to draft at least one interior lineman to be his replacement- preferably in the 3rd or 4th round after addressing cornerback, interior D Line and receiver.

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The issue isn’t taking Muma. The issue is taking him at pick 70 after already paying a lot of money to Foye and then trading up for Lloyd.

Muma has yet to return anything of value for that high investment. Maybe someone gets hurt (yay! That’s what we have to hope for!) and Muma steps up. But if everyone is healthy, your top 70 pick never sees the field for 3 years.

Absolutely.  This is my position exactly.  I remember saying it two years ago and a user on here mocked me for it.  I have my own "news flash":  Some users on this board take a lot of bad positions.  Details at 11pm.

I don't understand why so many on here don't seem to understand the concept of properly allocating your resources.  Teams aren't going to be 53 players strong.  Players are taken early in the draft because they are believed to be the most talented.  You want your talented players on the field.  Every snap that a player is sitting the bench is a snap where he is not helping the team win.  If Player A takes half the snaps of Player B, he has to make TWICE the impact on those plays to just break even.  Twice?  That's a big ask and borders on being unrealistic in most cases.

A good GM finds starters with the early picks.  Preferably on day 1 of their rookie season, but if not, at least as soon as possible and no later than year 2.  If you can't find a starter in the mid rounds and maybe you can't if you have a strong roster, then use the mid round picks on your top depth guys, role players, and possible future starters.  Since late round picks are anticipated to be the least talented, you look for them to fill in your "just in case" depth players.  If you can't be strong everywhere, you want to minimize the impact of your weaknesses by having the least talented players getting on the field the least.  

I feel like I'm just stating common sense, but Baalke doesn't seem to get it.  Muma, Strange and Bigsby were all early picks that had little chance of being good picks for the Jaguars given where they were drafted.

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The issue isn’t taking Muma. The issue is taking him at pick 70 after already paying a lot of money to Foye and then trading up for Lloyd.

Muma has yet to return anything of value for that high investment. Maybe someone gets hurt (yay! That’s what we have to hope for!) and Muma steps up. But if everyone is healthy, your top 70 pick never sees the field for 3 years.

That's what I said a few posts ago.

Drafted a backup too high.

I have also stated (like others) that they were apparently thinking long term and likely viewing Oluokun as a high-end stop gap - and Muma/Lloyd would allow them to get cheaper there after two years when Foye's deal was up. 

That didn't work out as planned because they have decided Oluokun/Lloyd are their best options and they are spending to keep it that way. 

My biggest gripe with this strategy is that they needed starters at 5 other positions yet spent that pick on a backup ILB that may become a starter in year 3 (and now is still not a starter in year 3) 

As much as that bugged me, I kinda got over it, and then they selected Miller last year and I just threw my hands in the air.

I didn't like either pick at the time, but I see the Muma draft pick as being far more egregious than Miller.  Muma was taken at #70 overall while Miller was at #121 overall.  I have much higher expectations for #70.  A team coming off a 3-14 record should not be taking a backup at #70 overall.

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That's what I said a few posts ago.

Drafted a backup too high.

I have also stated (like others) that they were apparently thinking long term and likely viewing Oluokun as a high-end stop gap - and Muma/Lloyd would allow them to get cheaper there after two years when Foye's deal was up. 

That didn't work out as planned because they have decided Oluokun/Lloyd are their best options and they are spending to keep it that way. 

My biggest gripe with this strategy is that they needed starters at 5 other positions yet spent that pick on a backup ILB that may become a starter in year 3 (and now is still not a starter in year 3) 

As much as that bugged me, I kinda got over it, and then they selected Miller last year and I just threw my hands in the air.

I didn't like either pick at the time, but I see the Muma draft pick as being far more egregious than Miller.  Muma was taken at #70 overall while Miller was at #121 overall.  I have much higher expectations for #70.  A team coming off a 3-14 record should not be taking a backup at #70 overall.

Exactly

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That's what I said a few posts ago.

Drafted a backup too high.

I have also stated (like others) that they were apparently thinking long term and likely viewing Oluokun as a high-end stop gap - and Muma/Lloyd would allow them to get cheaper there after two years when Foye's deal was up. 

That didn't work out as planned because they have decided Oluokun/Lloyd are their best options and they are spending to keep it that way. 

My biggest gripe with this strategy is that they needed starters at 5 other positions yet spent that pick on a backup ILB that may become a starter in year 3 (and now is still not a starter in year 3) 

As much as that bugged me, I kinda got over it, and then they selected Miller last year and I just threw my hands in the air.

I didn't like either pick at the time, but I see the Muma draft pick as being far more egregious than Miller.  Muma was taken at #70 overall while Miller was at #121 overall.  I have much higher expectations for #70.  A team coming off a 3-14 record should not be taking a backup at #70 overall.

Agreed, also ateam that had it's O-line and D-lines butt beat every game last year should not be picking skill players early.

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A new broom always sweeps clean.

That's what I said a few posts ago.

Drafted a backup too high.

I have also stated (like others) that they were apparently thinking long term and likely viewing Oluokun as a high-end stop gap - and Muma/Lloyd would allow them to get cheaper there after two years when Foye's deal was up. 

That didn't work out as planned because they have decided Oluokun/Lloyd are their best options and they are spending to keep it that way. 

My biggest gripe with this strategy is that they needed starters at 5 other positions yet spent that pick on a backup ILB that may become a starter in year 3 (and now is still not a starter in year 3) 

As much as that bugged me, I kinda got over it, and then they selected Miller last year and I just threw my hands in the air.

I didn't like either pick at the time, but I see the Muma draft pick as being far more egregious than Miller.  Muma was taken at #70 overall while Miller was at #121 overall.  I have much higher expectations for #70.  A team coming off a 3-14 record should not be taking a backup at #70 overall.

Again - the logic was that he'd be a starter in year three of his rookie deal - and if you "expect starter" at #70 you should do some homework on how many #70 picks don't even finish their rookie deal before being out of the league. 
#70 is very far from "can't miss starter" territory in any draft. 

That said - I agree that it was a luxury pick they could not afford to spend that way. Wish they'd selected a greater need/ chance at immediate impact.

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