It was wasn't towards the end of the season when they realized he sucked.  Closer to the beginning than the end.  Sure he can improve, hopefully he does but it's far from a given.

Oh, I didn't realize you had no idea what you were talking about.

The two games I cited late in season are the only two games he had reduced snap counts. 

I figured you had bothered to look at his snap counts. Guess not. 

Oddly - if he'd stayed healthy he'd have more snaps than Farrell last year.

Naw, just remembered he was playing a good bit of snaps early on and he continued to make errors and wasn't making an impact, he was hurting the team more than he was helping.  For a few games after the errors you didn't see him on the field as much and seen Farrell much more.

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Oh, I didn't realize you had no idea what you were talking about.

The two games I cited late in season are the only two games he had reduced snap counts. 

I figured you had bothered to look at his snap counts. Guess not. 

Oddly - if he'd stayed healthy he'd have more snaps than Farrell last year.

Naw, just remembered he was playing a good bit of snaps early on and he continued to make errors and wasn't making an impact, he was hurting the team more than he was helping.  For a few games after the errors you didn't see him on the field as much and seen Farrell much more.

Right - except that never actually happened.

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Naw, just remembered he was playing a good bit of snaps early on and he continued to make errors and wasn't making an impact, he was hurting the team more than he was helping.  For a few games after the errors you didn't see him on the field as much and seen Farrell much more.

Right - except that never actually happened.

His world is full of such incidents.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato

I don't get the desire to exclude Zay Jones

He was hurt last year and was really good prior to that. Still very valuable in my estimation.
I think any 4 or 5 receiver set includes him this season. And it should.
Especially if we are playing a zone heavy defense.
He wins against zone coverage consistently.

The categories of LB and DE could be haggled but that stuff will get sorted easily in camp.

I hope Jarrian leaps into the nickel role by September and that the rookie kicker wins out over Patterson.

Agreed.  If Zay is healthy he's an easy keeper.   Not even sure I keep Washington on the roster.   He's not returning kicks...so what's his value?

Kirk, Jones, Davis, BTJ...are your top 4 receivers.  Duvernay is the punt/kick returner.  Tim Jones gets the nod over Washington because of special teams play.  I'm not keeping Washington as the 6th receiver simply because of his receiving skills.

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Black Jaguar: Yeah, it's a thing.

It was always the Jags!!!!

We need to keep Zay. He's still a solid WR and a legit RZ threat. We can afford to keep him and I wouldn't have Washington ahead of him. Plus you look how the injuries at WR and the drop off talent wise hurt us last year and you can't have enough quality depth.

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Centre cupboard looking thin

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I think Steven Jones beats out Blake Hance

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Zay is our 4th best WR so he is a lock if healthy but I could see Ruby or Cephus beating out Washington

I'm all in on this.  IMO, way more upside.

Blake is a steady freddy, but Jones could be coached up to be a starter.

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Black Jaguar: Yeah, it's a thing.

It was always the Jags!!!!

Naw, just remembered he was playing a good bit of snaps early on and he continued to make errors and wasn't making an impact, he was hurting the team more than he was helping.  For a few games after the errors you didn't see him on the field as much and seen Farrell much more.

Right - except that never actually happened.

Hahahaha

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Really good is an exaggeration

No it isn't 
2022: 

you had your 3rd receiver giving you 823 yds, 5 TDs , 10 yards per catch, 44 first downs, 282 yards of YAC

Not to mention 8 catches and a TD in the comeback to beat LAC in the playoffs

He was clutch in some big moments in 2022. I'll call that really good for WR3 in that offense that had a very short average depth of target.

I don’t think Zay was the #3 in 2022. I think he was the #2.

Either way. I don’t think he’s “really good”. I think he’s solid and I don’t want to cut him. Mainly because Trevor likes him and honestly, Trevor is all that matters.

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Offense:
QB – Lawrence, Jones
RB – ETN, Bigsby, D’Earnest, Keilan Robinson
WR – BTJ, Kirk, Davis, Zay, Washington, Duvernay
TE – Engram, Strange, Farrell
Tackles – Robinson, Harrison, Little, Foster
Guards – Cleveland, Scherff, Hodges, Hance
Center – Morse, Fortner

Defense:
Tackles – Armstead, RRH, Hamilton, Maason, Jordan
Ends – Travon, Allen, Lacy, Myles
Backers – Foye, Lloyd, Muma, Miller, Abdullah, Gipson
Corners – Tyson, Darby, Jarrian, Brown, Savage, Prince
Safeties – Cisco, Antonio, Dewey, Thomas

Teams
K – White
P – Cook
LS - Ross

Agree with mostly all of this. I also expect Hance to be on the roster, but Jones is a possibility to beat him out. If they really like what they see in the pre-season they may be afraid to place him on the practice squad for fear of losing him to another team. 

I believe Little will win the kicking job. He has a strong leg and was very accurate in college.

Zay Jones would also be on my 53 man roster. Trevor has a lot of confidence in him and he is very reliable, when healthy. Parker Washington would also make the team as a back-up to Kirk in the slot and occasional punt returner. They'll likely have 2 or 3 receivers on the practice squad. Ruby is an interesting prospect who might eventually make the 53 man roster after further development on the practice squad. Cooks did show some promise as a rookie and his size is a big plus. If he shines in the pre-season, it will be a close competition with Washington.

There is also the possibility they add another pass rusher like Bud Dupree since it's unlikely that Myles Cole will contribute much as a rookie.

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Right - except that never actually happened.

Hahahaha

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No it isn't 
2022: 

you had your 3rd receiver giving you 823 yds, 5 TDs , 10 yards per catch, 44 first downs, 282 yards of YAC

Not to mention 8 catches and a TD in the comeback to beat LAC in the playoffs

He was clutch in some big moments in 2022. I'll call that really good for WR3 in that offense that had a very short average depth of target.

I don’t think Zay was the #3 in 2022. I think he was the #2.

Either way. I don’t think he’s “really good”. I think he’s solid and I don’t want to cut him. Mainly because Trevor likes him and honestly, Trevor is all that matters.

Marvin Jones had 81 targets - Zay had 82

Doesn't really matter how we rank them on a depth chart. We don't have to agree on adjectives and depth chart stuff. No biggie. 

Marvin was the Z and playing his natural position. 
Zay was the X which is NOT his natural position but we didn't have a traditional X not the roster. He filled it pretty well. 

They both took a backseat to Kirk who was the unconventional de facto number one playing Y with 133 targets. 

A healthy Zay is our 4th best receiver right now at the worst.

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Right - except that never actually happened.

Hahahaha

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No it isn't 
2022: 

you had your 3rd receiver giving you 823 yds, 5 TDs , 10 yards per catch, 44 first downs, 282 yards of YAC

Not to mention 8 catches and a TD in the comeback to beat LAC in the playoffs

He was clutch in some big moments in 2022. I'll call that really good for WR3 in that offense that had a very short average depth of target.

I don’t think Zay was the #3 in 2022. I think he was the #2.

Either way. I don’t think he’s “really good”. I think he’s solid and I don’t want to cut him. Mainly because Trevor likes him and honestly, Trevor is all that matters.

Hehehe

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Hahahaha

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I don’t think Zay was the #3 in 2022. I think he was the #2.

Either way. I don’t think he’s “really good”. I think he’s solid and I don’t want to cut him. Mainly because Trevor likes him and honestly, Trevor is all that matters.

Marvin Jones had 81 targets - Zay had 82

Doesn't really matter how we rank them on a depth chart. We don't have to agree on adjectives and depth chart stuff. No biggie. 

Marvin was the Z and playing his natural position. 
Zay was the X which is NOT his natural position but we didn't have a traditional X not the roster. He filled it pretty well. 

They both took a backseat to Kirk who was the unconventional de facto number one playing Y with 133 targets. 

A healthy Zay is our 4th best receiver right now at the worst.

Don’t disagree there at all.

I only disagree with the “really good” part. I think Kirk is really good but Zay is just merely good.

Semantics. GO BRIAN THOMAS JR!

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Offense:
QB – Lawrence, Jones
RB – ETN, Bigsby, D’Earnest, Keilan Robinson
WR – BTJ, Kirk, Davis, Zay, Washington, Duvernay
TE – Engram, Strange, Farrell
Tackles – Robinson, Harrison, Little, Foster
Guards – Cleveland, Scherff, Hodges, Hance
Center – Morse, Fortner

Defense:
Tackles – Armstead, RRH, Hamilton, Maason, Jordan
Ends – Travon, Allen, Lacy, Myles
Backers – Foye, Lloyd, Muma, Miller, Abdullah, Gipson
Corners – Tyson, Darby, Jarrian, Brown, Savage, Prince
Safeties – Cisco, Antonio, Dewey, Thomas

Teams
K – White
P – Cook
LS - Ross

Agree with mostly all of this. I also expect Hance to be on the roster, but Jones is a possibility to beat him out. If they really like what they see in the pre-season they may be afraid to place him on the practice squad for fear of losing him to another team. 

I believe Little will win the kicking job. He has a strong leg and was very accurate in college.

Zay Jones would also be on my 53 man roster. Trevor has a lot of confidence in him and he is very reliable, when healthy. Parker Washington would also make the team as a back-up to Kirk in the slot and occasional punt returner. They'll likely have 2 or 3 receivers on the practice squad. Ruby is an interesting prospect who might eventually make the 53 man roster after further development on the practice squad. Cooks did show some promise as a rookie and his size is a big plus. If he shines in the pre-season, it will be a close competition with Washington.

There is also the possibility they add another pass rusher like Bud Dupree since it's unlikely that Myles Cole will contribute much as a rookie.

I’m not sure Hance beats out Shatley, especially since Shatley gives positional versatility.


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Fix the O-Line!

I wonder if anybody gets traded this summer to get ahead of next year's off season with draft picks. In particular, the following:

Cam Robinson
Walker Little
Chad Muma

Curious how Muma fits on this defense as a 3rd stringer. Just seems like we wasted a 3rd round pick and might as well ship him off for a future 4th or 5th.

The Little and Robinson situation bothers me. Little as a former 2nd RD selection and Robinson in general with his cap hit and lack of durability.

With a new swing tackle on the roster to develop it feels like Little should either start at LT or get moved into a potential OG slot for either side for depth.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

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"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I wonder if anybody gets traded this summer to get ahead of next year's off season with draft picks. In particular, the following:

Cam Robinson
Walker Little
Chad Muma

Curious how Muma fits on this defense as a 3rd stringer. Just seems like we wasted a 3rd round pick and might as well ship him off for a future 4th or 5th.

The Little and Robinson situation bothers me. Little as a former 2nd RD selection and Robinson in general with his cap hit and lack of durability.

With a new swing tackle on the roster to develop it feels like Little should either start at LT or get moved into a potential OG slot for either side for depth.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Im not trading anyone on the oline for peanuts. I think Little is our number 1 depth piece at T or G.  If we have a G and T go down I think Little comes in for G and Foster come in for T.  If a T gets injured I think they will replace him with Little. We have good depth for this year at tackle and guard.

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I wonder if anybody gets traded this summer to get ahead of next year's off season with draft picks. In particular, the following:

Cam Robinson
Walker Little
Chad Muma

Curious how Muma fits on this defense as a 3rd stringer. Just seems like we wasted a 3rd round pick and might as well ship him off for a future 4th or 5th.

The Little and Robinson situation bothers me. Little as a former 2nd RD selection and Robinson in general with his cap hit and lack of durability.

With a new swing tackle on the roster to develop it feels like Little should either start at LT or get moved into a potential OG slot for either side for depth.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

My gut is saying little is going to train primarily at OG this off-season.

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I wonder if anybody gets traded this summer to get ahead of next year's off season with draft picks. In particular, the following:

Cam Robinson
Walker Little
Chad Muma

Curious how Muma fits on this defense as a 3rd stringer. Just seems like we wasted a 3rd round pick and might as well ship him off for a future 4th or 5th.

The Little and Robinson situation bothers me. Little as a former 2nd RD selection and Robinson in general with his cap hit and lack of durability.

With a new swing tackle on the roster to develop it feels like Little should either start at LT or get moved into a potential OG slot for either side for depth.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

Im not trading anyone on the oline for peanuts. I think Little is our number 1 depth piece at T or G.  If we have a G and T go down I think Little comes in for G and Foster come in for T.  If a T gets injured I think they will replace him with Little. We have good depth for this year at tackle and guard.

I get that, but, you're losing one of those guys, maybe both, after this season is over to free agency.

Could be a potential way of getting ahead of it and having a pick in 2025's class in advance.

I think Little gets moved to Guard this summer with Foster now onboard as the swing tackle though.

To make the depth more balanced across the board.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

---

I wonder if anybody gets traded this summer to get ahead of next year's off season with draft picks. In particular, the following:

Cam Robinson
Walker Little
Chad Muma

Curious how Muma fits on this defense as a 3rd stringer. Just seems like we wasted a 3rd round pick and might as well ship him off for a future 4th or 5th.

The Little and Robinson situation bothers me. Little as a former 2nd RD selection and Robinson in general with his cap hit and lack of durability.

With a new swing tackle on the roster to develop it feels like Little should either start at LT or get moved into a potential OG slot for either side for depth.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

My gut is saying little is going to train primarily at OG this off-season.

Yeah, same. No reason to have two swing tackles on the roster. Little has some work in already there at LG.

Just frustrating a 2nd RD pick entering year four has yet to claim a starting job on this offensive line.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

---

"What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie? I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky. The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing; Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king."

I don't get the desire to exclude Zay Jones

He was hurt last year and was really good prior to that. Still very valuable in my estimation.
I think any 4 or 5 receiver set includes him this season. And it should.
Especially if we are playing a zone heavy defense.
He wins against zone coverage consistently.

The categories of LB and DE could be haggled but that stuff will get sorted easily in camp.

I hope Jarrian leaps into the nickel role by September and that the rookie kicker wins out over Patterson.

Yep. Zay also does well in the red zone.

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Im not trading anyone on the oline for peanuts. I think Little is our number 1 depth piece at T or G.  If we have a G and T go down I think Little comes in for G and Foster come in for T.  If a T gets injured I think they will replace him with Little. We have good depth for this year at tackle and guard.

I get that, but, you're losing one of those guys, maybe both, after this season is over to free agency.

Could be a potential way of getting ahead of it and having a pick in 2025's class in advance.

I think Little gets moved to Guard this summer with Foster now onboard as the swing tackle though.

To make the depth more balanced across the board.

Sent from my SM-S906U using Tapatalk

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My gut is saying little is going to train primarily at OG this off-season.

Yeah, same. No reason to have two swing tackles on the roster. Little has some work in already there at LG.

Just frustrating a 2nd RD pick entering year four has yet to claim a starting job on this offensive line.

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Agreed but he has also been jerked around a lot.  Left tackle, right tackle, guard.

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Agree with mostly all of this. I also expect Hance to be on the roster, but Jones is a possibility to beat him out. If they really like what they see in the pre-season they may be afraid to place him on the practice squad for fear of losing him to another team. 

I believe Little will win the kicking job. He has a strong leg and was very accurate in college.

Zay Jones would also be on my 53 man roster. Trevor has a lot of confidence in him and he is very reliable, when healthy. Parker Washington would also make the team as a back-up to Kirk in the slot and occasional punt returner. They'll likely have 2 or 3 receivers on the practice squad. Ruby is an interesting prospect who might eventually make the 53 man roster after further development on the practice squad. Cooks did show some promise as a rookie and his size is a big plus. If he shines in the pre-season, it will be a close competition with Washington.

There is also the possibility they add another pass rusher like Bud Dupree since it's unlikely that Myles Cole will contribute much as a rookie.

I’m not sure Hance beats out Shatley, especially since Shatley gives positional versatility.


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He's not versatile, he's just awful at three different positions.

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“An empty vessel makes the loudest sound, so they that have the least wit are the greatest babblers.”. - Plato