One thing I have learned from being in business is that to build a great company, you need to be able to hire and fire people at will. To the extent that unions protect workers from being fired, they hinder the development of great businesses. If you want to have a great economy with lots of jobs and opportunity, the labor force has to be as flexible and liquid as possible. I was always involved in small business, and we hired and fired people willy-nilly, until we had a great core of people, the same way a football team is built. And then we were very successful, created an innovative product, created a lot of jobs and had lots of happy customers.
My wife, on the other hand, worked for the school board and then the city, and she found it impossible to strengthen her work force because no one could be replaced unless they committed a murder. Now I have nothing against city workers, by and large they are doing their best, but they lack any meaningful incentive or reward for doing a great job, because the unions protect the underperforming workers, and salaries are set by union contract and not by individual negotiation. What's the point of being great if you get no reward for it? Your co-worker sucks but he gets the same salary you do because of the union.
Quote:You mean hippos running at you or hippos plugged into a socket overnight?
More like People of Wal-Mart with their EBT cards.
Quote:This debate goes on at my company all the time...The majority of my company is Union and the rest is company...Why it's that way I have no idea, but it's been that way for nearly 60 years...The debate over what the Union really does for it's people, generally unknown to the workers as I have found by talking and listening to people complain...I hear "All the Union does is take my money and tell me who they want me to vote for." I was one who thought that same thought until a non Union employee became friends...For instance, due to the negotiations and as written into our contract, a Unionized employee pays only 10% of our insurance premium. Our policy has a $2500 deductible which is payed for by the company...My health insurance for me plus my wife and stepson is $34 a week ( family plan for 3+ people). 2 people cost $16 and some change, one person is $13...The company people pay $54 a week for the family plan with a $500 deductible non paid by the company...
Some of the other negotiated things we have is Union employees can only be forced to work overtime 10 times per year, but only on Tuesday's and Thursday's, and only a half hour...Company employees have no limit on forced overtime...We all know that they aren't supposed to be able to force you to work overtime and we all know they do...
Union employees can only be forced to work on Sunday's for time and a half, 4 times per year, any other Sunday's must be payed at double time...If they do not post that we are required to work on Sunday PRIOR to Noon on Thursday, they must pay us at Double time...So no matter what, if we work on a Sunday, we will never be paid less than time and a half for Sunday, even if we don't get forty hours for the week.. Company employees get paid only time and a half if working Sunday puts them over 40 hours...
Union employees get dental and vision insurance for $5 a week,regardless of the number of dependents you have, company employees have no dental and vision insurance..
There are other advantages to being in the Union, like the Union has their own Credit Union we can join, that company people can't, and other negotiated things, but I won't try and remember them all...
Now is a Union good or bad? Greedy and corrupted? No entity does anything other than for their own benefit...My Union is founded by and ran by minorities, and the money they raise is used to support politicians who are either minorities or support legislation for minority programs...
There are only a couple of unions that have any REAL power anymore...United Auto Workers, and possibly the Airlines, other than that Unions are not nearly the same as the Jimmy Hoffa days
Nobody can be "forced" to work overtime or on the weekends. However, most jobs will specify that overtime and/or work on the weekends may be required. You always have the alternative to find employment elsewhere.
Your example of what your union spends it's money on is an example of why there is so much corruption in politics. To support a politician solely because they are a minority is a very wrong reason. That is one of the reasons why we have the inept and unqualified person in the White House today.
Also, legislation should not apply to certain groups of people, minority or otherwise. Laws should be written that apply to ALL citizens.
As much as unions have become corrupted and perverted their intended role, get rid of them and watch how fast exploitation of workers becomes a problem once again.
I have free med,dental and vision based on banked hours . a pension. and an annuity I can borrow against at 3 percent interest.
Quote:I don't know about all unions, but what we pay (once a week) is equal to our hourly wage...If one makes $22.37 per hour, that is his union dues per week...If one makes $13.45 per hour, he pays $13.45 a week Union dues...Union dues is also tax deductible. Some unions have other funds such as strike funds that union employees pay for, but it's a very small percentage...For me, the Union is a good deal...If I had to pay what the company employees pay for health insurance rather than the Union negotiated payment, I would have to cut something somewhere else
This a prime example of putting lipstick on a pig.
Quote:Nobody can be "forced" to work overtime or on the weekends. However, most jobs will specify that overtime and/or work on the weekends may be required. You always have the alternative to find employment elsewhere.
Your example of what your union spends it's money on is an example of why there is so much corruption in politics. To support a politician solely because they are a minority is a very wrong reason. That is one of the reasons why we have the inept and unqualified person in the White House today.
Also, legislation should not apply to certain groups of people, minority or otherwise. Laws should be written that apply to ALL citizens.
as I said we all know they "can't" force you to work overtime and we all know they do...there is a warning system in place for absenteeism...first unexcused absence no penalty, 2nd unexcused (within 30 days of first unexcused absence)absence you get a 90 day probation period in which you can not be late, leave early or miss a scheduled work day, any excused absence will result in a reset of your 90 day probation period...A work day scheduled on the weekend or overtime is a scheduled day so you can not miss it either...If you miss a day, your next penalty is a 180 day period with the same terms as before...If you miss a day you are terminated...if you get an unexcused absence, and go without missing a another day for 30 days, the unexcused absence goes off your record...
If the world was a perfect place there would be no corruption, and for as long as minorities claim and feel to be to be oppressed, there will always be people such as Al Sharpton crusading on a one sided race war...Political corruption will always be around no matter of race...
Quote:This a prime example of putting lipstick on a pig.
Union employees pay less for health insurance than non union employees is putting lipstick on a pig? This is what makes the Unions and collective bargaining agreements worthwhile to employees...I'm quite happy to pay less for medical insurance and all the other things that come along with the contract
Quote:I have free med,dental and vision based on banked hours . a pension. and an annuity I can borrow against at 3 percent interest.
free insurance is rare these days, pensions are getting pretty scarce in favor of 401(k) programs and anyone with a 401(k) or similar program can borrow against it at a low percentage...you can generally borrow half of the value of the account and you must contribute your regular payroll deduction for the plan, plus repayment of the loan as payroll deduction
Quote:As much as unions have become corrupted and perverted their intended role, get rid of them and watch how fast exploitation of workers becomes a problem once again.
I agree...Minimum wage and most current labor laws came about through exploitation of workers through the years...Minimum wage came about when the railroads were paying less money to guys building the railroad, than people who did laundry and worked in town doing other things, plus women were paid less than men for everything... Railroad workers started becoming scarce as they took to finding jobs that paid more in town...The government finally acted and set a minimum wage...This still did not set well with railroad workers as then they were getting paid the same wage as people washing their clothes and they were busting their butts 12-16 hours a day 7 days a week...The lack of workers forced the railroads to start paying premium wages in order to attract workers...
Unions came about when employers were able to fire a guy just because they didn't like the shoes he wore...Unions fought for fairness for all employees before branching out into trades...Unions fought for fairness and safety in the workplace...Today's workforce would not be as it is today without unions...
Without Unions and organized labor organizations, employers can do whatever they want...they can fire you with no warning, they can reduce your pay at will, they are notoriously slow to give decent raises, (one company here just gave a 10 cent raise to it's employees and said if you don't want it punch out and go home)...Companies can make you pay most, if not all of your health care or not even offer them, the same for retirement...If there were no unions for companies to compete for workers with, there would be trouble in the workforce
Quote:Unions are not needed any more I don't think. Typically ultra corrupt and have brainwashed members into thinking they are actually working for them.
Quote:Well, it was bound to happen... first thing I have read from you that I disagree.
Quote:Well, it was bound to happen... first thing I have read from you that I disagree.
Agreed to agree with your disagreement.
For one, Unions are in such decline, that to blame them for the economic woes is naive and excuse to " pass the buck" Studies have shown that business failures are 69% mis management. Unions thrive in other countries like Germany, who build better products, have better productivity and workers are treated well.
Funny how zillion dollar compensation CEO packages are somewhat overlooked, but someone with a decent wage and pension gets lambasted.
Quote:Good for you. Care to elaborate on the situation? How much of that $40,000 went towards union dues and how much went towards taxes? Let me guess, "nothing right now". Wait until you do taxes for next year...
Lol....wait till taxes? Talk about sour grapes. I suppose if someone hits the lottery your response is...yeah...wait till you do your taxes. The Union dues? They'd remain the same...typically 2 hours of your hourly pay. Make $20 an hour? Pay $40 a month in dues. Theres no commision fees. That pays for arbitrations in unjust terminations, etc, etc. dues cannot be used for political purposes. That PAC money is separate and voluntary.
Some negotiate on their feet. Some on their knees.
Problems with Unions not withstanding, they are the only voice the working man has.
~ Bruce Springsteen. ( a good " boss" )
Quote:free insurance is rare these days, pensions are getting pretty scarce in favor of 401(k) programs and anyone with a 401(k) or similar program can borrow against it at a low percentage...you can generally borrow half of the value of the account and you must contribute your regular payroll deduction for the plan, plus repayment of the loan as payroll deduction
There is no such thing as "free" insurance. Your company may pay your premiums for you, but at the same time they also pay you a lower wage.
Quote:I agree...Minimum wage and most current labor laws came about through exploitation of workers through the years...Minimum wage came about when the railroads were paying less money to guys building the railroad, than people who did laundry and worked in town doing other things, plus women were paid less than men for everything... Railroad workers started becoming scarce as they took to finding jobs that paid more in town...The government finally acted and set a minimum wage...This still did not set well with railroad workers as then they were getting paid the same wage as people washing their clothes and they were busting their butts 12-16 hours a day 7 days a week...The lack of workers forced the railroads to start paying premium wages in order to attract workers...
Unions came about when employers were able to fire a guy just because they didn't like the shoes he wore...Unions fought for fairness for all employees before branching out into trades...Unions fought for fairness and safety in the workplace...Today's workforce would not be as it is today without unions...
Without Unions and organized labor organizations, employers can do whatever they want...they can fire you with no warning, they can reduce your pay at will, they are notoriously slow to give decent raises, (one company here just gave a 10 cent raise to it's employees and said if you don't want it punch out and go home)...Companies can make you pay most, if not all of your health care or not even offer them, the same for retirement...If there were no unions for companies to compete for workers with, there would be trouble in the workforce
There was a time when perhaps there was a need for unions. However, in today's economy the need is gone and they only "serve" to make money. It's funny how I happened to come across
this article today regarding unions in government, and how it's nearly impossible to fire someone, even if they truly deserve it.
Case in point, at a VA facility for mental patients, a patient was able to walk out of a door that was left unlocked. A worker had actually reported seeing the patient at least 3 different times after security cameras clearly showed that wasn't the case. In a nutshell, the worker was fired, but the union fought and got the firing changed to a 14 day suspension, then got it knocked down to a 1 day suspension, and eventually got the worker re-instated with back pay. What is really sickening is what the arbitrator had to say about it. From the article.
Quote:
AFGE argued that suspension was inappropriate because Olubo “had just returned from...vacation and mistakenly thought he saw another patient who looked like [the missing] patient.”
Olubo’s negligence was ruled just a “shortcoming,” and the arbitrator even lectured the VA in Kansas City “that it should have used the disciplinary process ‘to inspire [Olubo] to be a better worker in the future,’” Pizzella wrote. Arbitrator Robbins also ordered the VA in Kansas City to not place any evidence of a verbal reprimand “into [Olubo’s] work record or utilize it in any future disciplinary action.”
Give me a break.
Regarding the part in bold from your remarks, it should be your responsibility to pay for your healthcare and retirement. Healthcare and retirement benefits were first offered as an additional incentive to attract employees.
Quote:Agreed to agree with your disagreement.
For one, Unions are in such decline, that to blame them for the economic woes is naive and excuse to " pass the buck" Studies have shown that business failures are 69% mis management. Unions thrive in other countries like Germany, who build better products, have better productivity and workers are treated well.
Funny how zillion dollar compensation CEO packages are somewhat overlooked, but someone with a decent wage and pension gets lambasted.
Excellent points. During my studies I read quite a few articles on the downfall of Detroit. The lie that I've heard was that unions were at fault for the auto industry decline. But academic studies show management had a much more significant impact. Unions weren't the ones creating the dreck designs. Management decided the product, the workers just put the junk together, they had no say in the engineering and other facets to the production.
Quote:Excellent points. During my studies I read quite a few articles on the downfall of Detroit. The lie that I've heard was that unions were at fault for the auto industry decline. But academic studies show management had a much more significant impact. Unions weren't the ones creating the dreck designs. Management decided the product, the workers just put the junk together, they had no say in the engineering and other facets to the production.
Exactly. As I mentioned, Germany. Their auto industry is successful and completely unionized. And again, the Detroit workers get blamed for the demise off the industry while no one bats an eyelash at the CEO, COO, et al compensation.
A Chevy Avalanche made in the USof A is the same price as one made in Mexico. One worker makes a good living standard wage and can afford the vehicle, while the underpaid southern working partner cannot. Yet the savings of that cheaper labor isn't passed on to the consumer. Funny. The truck made with unionized workers costing the same as the foreign non union workers.
Quote:Excellent points. During my studies I read quite a few articles on the downfall of Detroit. The lie that I've heard was that unions were at fault for the auto industry decline. But academic studies show management had a much more significant impact. Unions weren't the ones creating the dreck designs. Management decided the product, the workers just put the junk together, they had no say in the engineering and other facets to the production.
The failure of Detroit is a result of a number of things, and unions certainly had their share of the blame. Were unions THE sole blame for the failure of the auto industry in Detroit? No, but to say that they didn't have a hand in it is simply false.
Quote:There was a time when perhaps there was a need for unions. However, in today's economy the need is gone and they only "serve" to make money. It's funny how I happened to come across
this article
today regarding unions in government, and how it's nearly impossible to fire someone, even if they truly deserve it.
Case in point, at a VA facility for mental patients, a patient was able to walk out of a door that was left unlocked. A worker had actually reported seeing the patient at least 3 different times after security cameras clearly showed that wasn't the case. In a nutshell, the worker was fired, but the union fought and got the firing changed to a 14 day suspension, then got it knocked down to a 1 day suspension, and eventually got the worker re-instated with back pay. What is really sickening is what the arbitrator had to say about it. From the article.
Give me a break.
Regarding the part in bold from your remarks, it should be your responsibility to pay for your healthcare and retirement. Healthcare and retirement benefits were first offered as an additional incentive to attract employees.
I guess some companies NEEDS are not the same as others...I would make the claim that while one company feels no need for Unions, another company feels the need for Unions...If there was no need , no one would use Unions, so I would say that would be a decision made by the CEO and Board Of Directors as to the "need" for a Union, not to mention the thousands of people who elect to work for a Unionized company over a non Union company