Quote: I agree with you that talent wasn't the issue with those Oilers teams. You did a good job of illustrating their talent with some of the players you mentioned from those Oilers teams. The Oilers didn't seem to have the necessary amount of discipline and focus that's needed to get over the top. This certainly wasn't a reflection of Warren Moon though.
Agreed. It was almost like a carry over from the Glanville era.
I still think 1992 might have been their year to reach the Super Bowl had they gotten a break in the second half of that Bills game.
Some blame the run-n-shoot offense for being unable to run out the clock.
I don't know if I buy that for three reasons.
1 I think that offense was key to their success. Their 2nd, 3rd and 4th WRs were invariably better than the DBs covering them, and it kept the ball in Moon's hands. In that game, they had a couple of turnovers. Oddly enough, absent TEs and FBs, that Oilers team definitely had the talent to be a power running team if they chose to be.
2. Even without the TEs and FBs, they still had a 1200 yard rusher in Lorenzo White. It wasn't an inability to run out the clock that did them in. Turnovers and an inability to stop the overwhelming momentum lost that game for the Oilers.
3. In the second half of that game, Buffalo managed to exploit one guy on the defense the entire second half-nickel back Steve Jackson (?). It was one of the most embarrassing displays of defensive football by one DB I've ever seen in an NFL game, ranking up there with Charles Dimry and several others.
These lists are fun to debate. If I started a team and could select any quarterback from history, these would be my top 5:
1. Joe Montana
2. Johnny Unitas
3. Tom Brady
4. John Elway
5. Peyton Manning
6. Dan Marino
The top 3 could be switched around in any order. Montana, Unitas and Brady were the greatest because they combined rare talent with amazing leadership. Elway and Manning are a notch below. Elway may have been the most talented, but couldn't win the big one until Terrell Davis was signed. Manning may end up with possessing every possible al-time record for quarterbacks, but he has not played great in the biggest games. Marino was amazing, but never won a championship so can't be considered top 5.
Quote:Here's mine...
1. Montana
2. Elway
3. Marino
4. Young
5. Aikman
6. Manning
7. Farvre
8. Brady*
9. Staubach
10. Fouts
I agree Brady is tainted. However, Manning has to be below Brady.
Quote:I agree Brady is tainted. However, Manning has to be below Brady.
Yeah it's a 4-2 Super Bowl record for Brady compared to a 1-2 record for P. Manning (heck, even Eli is 2-0 in SBs)
Did Brady and the Pats really "cheat" in all 4 of those SB victories or were they just the better team that year?
Quote:I agree Brady is tainted. However, Manning has to be below Brady.
Why does Payton have to be below Brady? I think we've all succumbed to espn type analysis where rings are the defining criteria. But, do you really think Brady would be able to out gun any of the top qbs?
There is a reason Brady fell to the sixth round. Nfl arm, but not a cannon. Small physique but had height. Small hands, but is intelligent.
Brady is a mediocre qb that had the luck to hit the nfl in just the right point. I still think he's a gamer. And that puts him in the conversation.
Anyone that is willing to push over the line is a gamer. But, I'm sorry, manning had to deal with skit a lot more stuff to be successful. Brady, to me was a short cut qb that fell into the right system and climate at the right time.
He's top ten, but he's a mellenial top ten. Brady could never truly carry a team.
If he was in the nfc he probably would have missed the play offs on several occasions. The afc east has been a joke longer than my dog has been alive. And he's turning 8 on July.
Quote:Agreed. It was almost like a carry over from the Glanville era.
I still think 1992 might have been their year to reach the Super Bowl had they gotten a break in the second half of that Bills game.
Some blame the run-n-shoot offense for being unable to run out the clock.
I don't know if I buy that for three reasons.
1 I think that offense was key to their success. Their 2nd, 3rd and 4th WRs were invariably better than the DBs covering them, and it kept the ball in Moon's hands. In that game, they had a couple of turnovers. Oddly enough, absent TEs and FBs, that Oilers team definitely had the talent to be a power running team if they chose to be.
2. Even without the TEs and FBs, they still had a 1200 yard rusher in Lorenzo White. It wasn't an inability to run out the clock that did them in. Turnovers and an inability to stop the overwhelming momentum lost that game for the Oilers.
3. In the second half of that game, Buffalo managed to exploit one guy on the defense the entire second half-nickel back Steve Jackson (?). It was one of the most embarrassing displays of defensive football by one DB I've ever seen in an NFL game, ranking up there with Charles Dimry and several others.
Interestingly, this is one of the NFL games that there's plenty of video of on the Internet. The late Charlie Jones and the late Todd Christensen were the TV announcers for the NBC coverage of the game. Both are greatly missed. Other than the turnovers, which I recall being a huge part of the Bills comeback, I can't recall the details of the epic comeback by Frank Reich and the Bills. The information and recall you provided should prove very helpful when viewing video of the game.
One other thing that jumps out about this game is it was blacked out in Buffalo and throughout Western NY because the game didn't sell out.
In general, there are so many resources available to us to view past players that weren't available in our youth. For fans like us and practically everyone participating in this thread, it's like finding hidden treasure that's even more valuable than monetary hidden treasure!
The following is my list of top 10 QBs of all-time in no particular order. There are many great QBs that I didn't include that one can make a strong case for as evidenced by this thread:
1. Sammy Baugh
2. Otto Graham
3. Johnny Unitas
4. Dan Fouts
5. John Elway
6. Dan Marino
7. Joe Montana
8. Roger Staubach
9. Tom Brady
10. Aaron Rodgers
Quote: Interestingly, this is one of the NFL games that there's plenty of video of on the Internet. The late Charlie Jones and the late Todd Christensen were the TV announcers for the NBC coverage of the game. Both are greatly missed. Other than the turnovers, which I recall being a huge part of the Bills comeback, I can't recall the details of the epic comeback by Frank Reich and the Bills. The information and recall you provided should prove very helpful when viewing video of the game.
One other thing that jumps out about this game is it was blacked out in Buffalo and throughout Western NY because the game didn't sell out.
In general, there are so many resources available to us to view past players that weren't available in our youth. For fans like us and practically everyone participating in this thread, it's like finding hidden treasure that's even more valuable than monetary hidden treasure!
Let's not get to crazy about which hidden treasures most of us would rather find there D6.
Quote:Let's not get to crazy about which hidden treasures most of us would rather find there D6.
How about around half the people participating in this thread? :thumbsup:
Quote: Interestingly, this is one of the NFL games that there's plenty of video of on the Internet. The late Charlie Jones and the late Todd Christensen were the TV announcers for the NBC coverage of the game. Both are greatly missed. Other than the turnovers, which I recall being a huge part of the Bills comeback, I can't recall the details of the epic comeback by Frank Reich and the Bills. The information and recall you provided should prove very helpful when viewing video of the game.
One other thing that jumps out about this game is it was blacked out in Buffalo and throughout Western NY because the game didn't sell out.
In general, there are so many resources available to us to view past players that weren't available in our youth. For fans like us and practically everyone participating in this thread, it's like finding hidden treasure that's even more valuable than monetary hidden treasure!
In fact, NFL network rebroadcasts several games in its entirety, including this one.
I just saw it about a month or so ago.
NFL Network is pretty good in broadcasting historic games.
They aren't perfect because they don't seem to show all of the Super Bowls.
I have recorded SB III, VII, XIII, XX, XXI, XXII, XXIII, XXV from there. I know they have broadcast SB XIV before (Pittsburgh 31, L.A. Rams 19), but I keep missing it.
There are plenty of other Super Bowls I'd like to add to the collection.
I would like to see the old super bowls, particularly I & II, IV, V, VI, X, XI, and XII.
Quote:In fact, NFL network rebroadcasts several games in its entirety, including this one.
I just saw it about a month or so ago.
NFL Network is pretty good in broadcasting historic games.
They aren't perfect because they don't seem to show all of the Super Bowls.
I have recorded SB III, VII, XIII, XX, XXI, XXII, XXIII, XXV from there. I know they have broadcast SB XIV before (Pittsburgh 31, L.A. Rams 19), but I keep missing it.
There are plenty of other Super Bowls I'd like to add to the collection.
I would like to see the old super bowls, particularly I & II, IV, V, VI, X, XI, and XII.
Because of the COC rules on the Forum, I'm going to send you a PM that should help you find some of the Super Bowls you are looking for.
Quote:Because of the COC rules on the Forum, I'm going to send you a PM that should help you find some of the Super Bowls you are looking for.
I didn't have a lot of interest in SB IV until just recently.
NFL Network ran a special that ranked the top ten defenses all time.
It surprised me to find the KC Chiefs Super Bowl era teams ranked 3rd on that list.
I only know of that team what I've read and seen in old NFL Films footage, since they won SB IV the year I was born.
I would love to see that defense in a full game-actually over the course of a full season...but a game would have to do. Thing is, you never hear this defense mentioned amongst the all time great defenses the way you do the Steel Curtain and '85 Bears, but when you look at the talent on that team, it makes sense they would be.
Emmitt Thomas, Willie Lanier, Buck Buchanon, Curley Culp...Hank Stram being the first coach to utilize a NT...that would be something to see. That SB IV winning team gave up 20 points the entire postseason that year.
I would also like to see Len Dawson. He is a HOF QB, but I'd like to see him throw in what was then live game action. I want to see the zip on his throws and the pocket presence. The old slow motion NFL films highlights with John Facenda narrating were great, but still did not give you a chance to see those things. It would be interesting to see his passing ability as measured against the post 1978 era QBs.
Quote:I didn't have a lot of interest in SB IV until just recently.
NFL Network ran a special that ranked the top ten defenses all time.
It surprised me to find the KC Chiefs Super Bowl era teams ranked 3rd on that list.
I only know of that team what I've read and seen in old NFL Films footage, since they won SB IV the year I was born.
I would love to see that defense in a full game-actually over the course of a full season...but a game would have to do.
Emmitt Thomas, Willie Lanier, Buck Buchanon, Curley Culp...Hank Stram being the first coach to utilize a NT...that would be something to see. That SB IV winning team gave up 20 points the entire postseason that year.
Super Bowl IV was the first Super Bowl that I watched live. Though I was only 7 years old at the time, it was apparent even at that age that the Chiefs pulled off a huge upset against the Vikings. That game played a major role in my interest growing in the NFL.
The Chiefs had very good teams back in that era. The Dolphins double OT win in Kansas City in 1971 was one of the best NFL games I've ever seen. It's a day HOF K Jan Stenerud probably wishes he could change.
Hank Stram was one of the most innovative NFL Head Coach's of all-time. On both sides of the ball.
I gave thought to putting Len Dawson in the top 10 QBs of all-time. His longevity by itself was very impressive.
Regarding Emmitt Thomas, it was very disappointing that he never reached an NFL Head Coach opportunity. I was hoping the Lions would hire him in 1997, after seeing the excellent work Thomas did as Ray Rhodes' Defensive Coordinator in Philadelphia. Thomas had an extensive coaching background on both sides of the ball on the NFL level. This in addition to his HOF playing career.
Quote: Interestingly, this is one of the NFL games that there's plenty of video of on the Internet. The late Charlie Jones and the late Todd Christensen were the TV announcers for the NBC coverage of the game. Both are greatly missed. Other than the turnovers, which I recall being a huge part of the Bills comeback, I can't recall the details of the epic comeback by Frank Reich and the Bills. The information and recall you provided should prove very helpful when viewing video of the game.
One other thing that jumps out about this game is it was blacked out in Buffalo and throughout Western NY because the game didn't sell out.
In general, there are so many resources available to us to view past players that weren't available in our youth. For fans like us and practically everyone participating in this thread, it's like finding hidden treasure that's even more valuable than monetary hidden treasure!
Side note, I grew up in Erie and it seemed like every week there was danger of the Buffalo game being blacked out. That was when they were winning. It's hard to sell tickets when it is 3 degrees out.
Quote:Side note, I grew up in Erie and it seemed like every week there was danger of the Buffalo game being blacked out. That was when they were winning. It's hard to sell tickets when it is 3 degrees out.
The weather and the large stadium combined certainly make selling tickets a challenge for the Bills.
What compounded the situation for the 1992 playoff game is the relatively small amount of time to sell a very large number of tickets. This was even a problem for the Packers in the 2013 season with a much smaller amount of tickets needed to sell at Lambeau Field for their first round playoff game. That weekend, only 1 of the 4 playoff games didn't have ticket selling issues. I believe it was the Colts home playoff game against the Chiefs.
Just thought about Jim Kelley, from the buffalo bills. Prolific offense, 4 super bowl appearances. Shouldn't he be in the top 10?
Not sure Brady is #1 with everything surrounding him and his team, but I wouldn't put him below #2 with Montana at #1
Quote:Just thought about Jim Kelley, from the buffalo bills. Prolific offense, 4 super bowl appearances. Shouldn't he be in the top 10?
At the very least, Jim Kelly warrants serious consideration in the top 10. I probably would put Kelly somewhere between 11 and 20. But Kelly's command of the K-Gun Offense and 4 straight Super Bowl appearances help his cause of being in the top 10. Either way, it's a close call. It's very subjective.
Dan Fouts never made it to a Super Bowl. Yet, in watching both Fouts and Kelly, my gut feeling is Fouts would have been my choice of the two. It's close though. Fouts would also be my choice of any QB in the Super Bowl era who didn't make it to a Super Bowl. Watching Fouts in action with his quick release, pin point passes, and command of the Chargers Offense was quite a treat unless he was playing against my favorite team.
Quote:Just thought about Jim Kelley, from the buffalo bills. Prolific offense, 4 super bowl appearances. Shouldn't he be in the top 10?
And it was 4
straight Super Bowl appearances too, which was pretty impressive, because it hadn't been done before or since. I guess Seattle does have a chance to go to 4 straight, but the odds are against them.
Now if only Jim Kelly and the Bills could have won one of those Super Bowls. There best shot was that first one.
The Bills were probably the biggest reason why Dan Marino only made it to one Super Bowl during his career.
Quote:And it was 4 straight Super Bowl appearances too, which was pretty impressive, because it hadn't been done before or since. I guess Seattle does have a chance to go to 4 straight, but the odds are against them.
Now if only Jim Kelly and the Bills could have won one of those Super Bowls. There best shot was that first one.
The Bills were probably the biggest reason why Dan Marino only made it to one Super Bowl during his career.
To Jim Kelly's credit, he led the Bills to the point that a 47 yard FG would have won them the Super Bowl against the Giants. That's a kick you have to make with so much at stake.
In fairness to Kelly, the Bills were overmatched talent wise in their last 3 Super Bowl appearances. The 1991 season Redskins were one of the most underrated Super Bowl winning teams. The Cowboys were loaded with talent, including depth, the following 2 years.