Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:I guess you have to ask yourself this question is last years roster or the year before that more talented than that which Jack Del Rio had most of his time as a Jaguar HC?  I know many of posters created threads or posts bashing JDR but if he took the same talent against Gus would he not win the game?


Dont get me wrong I fully support GM Dave Caldwell and HC Gus Bradley as a deeply devoted Jaguars fan but I understand that they are green and learning their positions.  I do feel as if mistakes were made, but I think they learned from those mistakes.  I was confident that this team had a chance of getting eight or more wins this season (prior to Fowler's injury and while he is only one guy it set an omen if you will against many fans hopes for this season).

 

I think GM Dave Caldwell's position is safer than that of Gus Bradley whom many feel that Dave was able to bring in over the course of two years (mainly of good drafting) a better talented team than before so the pressure is truly on Gus to take this talent coach it up and turn it into wins.


We all really want Gus to be successful but this task lies with him and the men that suit up to play for him.

The answer to the opening question is "No, last year's roster was NOT more talented than the one JDR had for most of his career."

 

JDR coached here from 2003-2011.

 

Let's do a position by position comparison

 

QB:  JDR had BL, DG most of his career here.  Bradley had Gabbert, Henne, and a rookie BB.-Edge: JDR

RB:  JDR had FT still in his prime last 5 years and MJDs entire prime career.  Bradley had MJD's last year here, Gerhart, and DRob.  Edge:  JDR

WR:  JDR had Jimmy Smith towards the end, MJ, RW, Wilford:  Bradley had Blackmon for maybe a grand total of half a season, the current young guys.  Edge: JDR.

TE:  JDR had Brady, Wrighster, and ML during his prime and best ever season.  Gus?  ML the past two years, Clay Harbor, and not much else.  Edge:  JDR.

 

OL:  JDR had Vince Manuwai, Chris Naoele, and Brad Meester in their primes.  Also had Mo Williams at RT.  Gus had Brad Meester at the very end, Luke Bowanko, a rookie Linder, Luke Joeckel, and an assortment of disasters at RT.  Edge:  JDR

 

DL:  JDR had Stroud and Henderson at their peaks, Terrance Knighton, Reggie Hayward, Rob Meier, Bobby McCray when he had a ten sack season.  Gus had Miller, Marks, Ryan Davis, Chris Smith, Chris Clemons, Red Bryant one year.  Edge:  JDR

 

LB:  JDR had Mike Peterson, Rookie and in his prime Daryl Smith, and several others.  Gus had Poz, Telvin Smith one year to date, Geno Hayes.  This is the closest matchup thus far, but I'd still give the edge to JDR.

 

DB:  JDR had Rashean Mathis in his prime, DD, Deon Grant, Brian Williams among others at RCB.  Gus had Dwayne Gratz, Cyp, Colvin for half a year, McCray.  Edge;  JDR and it isn't even close.

The idea that Del Rio would beat Gus with the same talent is patently absurd. Players quit on JDR because he was two-faced and a meathead. Players who should have quit played hard for Gus last year. There is no debate here about who is the better coach.

Quote:The idea that Del Rio would beat Gus with the same talent is patently absurd. Players quit on JDR because he was two-faced and a meathead. Players who should have quit played hard for Gus last year. There is no debate here about who is the better coach.

Exactly.  Del Rio lost the team.  He did so with his manic style of coaching where one minute he was a player's coach, and the next he was the authoritarian.  Neither side served him well, and he could never decide which he was going to be from one day to the next.

 

This is a guy who demanded leadership, and when the veterans stepped up and did what he asked, he punished them for doing so.  The guy had a world class ego.  Hopefully he's figured out how to keep that in check or his stint in Oakland will be as up and down as it was here.

 

Bradley actually showed us something last year by getting players to continue playing hard for him despite the struggles.  While his style is very different, it was reminiscent of what Coughlin was able to do with less talented teams later in his tenure here in Jax.  The one trademark of Bradley's teams has been the fact that they don't quit.  As the talent level improves, that tenacity will reap dividends. 

I would like to wait until Borltes 3rd season before saying jobs are on the line.

Quote:I would like to wait until Borltes 3rd season before saying jobs are on the line.

What good would that be for message board fodder?  Heads must roll, and we must start predicting it almost as soon as we hire, draft, or sign someone. 

Quote:What good would that be for message board fodder?  Heads must roll, and we must start predicting it almost as soon as we hire, draft, or sign someone. 

 

That's a good point. If a rookie does not show flashes of Hall of Fame potential then he should be replaced ASAP. If a head coach does not at least win 80% of their games a replacmeent must be had!

3 'jobs on the line'. Oh boy.

Quote:That's a good point. If a rookie does not show flashes of Hall of Fame potential then he should be replaced ASAP. If a head coach does not at least win 80% of their games a replacmeent must be had!

 

Well, it depends on the rookie, and when he is permitted to flash.  If he flashes in rookie mini-camp, he'd better be undrafted because we don't want to have our draftees showing anything in those meaningless practices.

Quote:I would like to wait until Borltes 3rd season before saying jobs are on the line.

An nfl coach can't win 11 or 12 games his first 3 seasons and expect to be back for a 4th. What kind of reality do people think this is?

You can only harp on the talent thing for so long. This team is mostly comprised of dave's hand picked players now. In theory, a franchise qb and left tackle should make a world of difference on any offense. Dave got one of each in the first round, so now it's time to put up or shut up. It's time for some of these young guys to improve. Gus claims to be a "teacher" after all.


It didn't take 3 years to figure out Tom brady, manning, luck, Matt Ryan, joe flacco, Ben roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson were competent quarterbacks. We should be seeing a minimum of 20 td passes this year. That's a reasonable expectation in today's nfl

So either we have ice cream socials or have a megalomaniac with player favorites running the show.

 

Say what you want about JDR but his teams came out well coached and adjusted as the game went on.  Gus doesn't prepare his team in that way.

Quote:So either we have ice cream socials or have a megalomaniac with player favorites running the show.

 

Say what you want about JDR but his teams came out well coached and adjusted as the game went on.  Gus doesn't prepare his team in that way.

It's funny because we have very different recollections.  It seems to me that lack of adjustment has been a common complaint for just about every coaching staff this team has ever employed, including Del Rio. 

Quote:You can only harp on the talent thing for so long. This team is mostly comprised of dave's hand picked players now. In theory, a franchise qb and left tackle should make a world of difference on any offense. Dave got one of each in the first round, so now it's time to put up or shut up. It's time for some of these young guys to improve. Gus claims to be a "teacher" after all.


It didn't take 3 years to figure out Tom brady, manning, luck, Matt Ryan, joe flacco, Ben roethlisberger, and Russell Wilson were competent quarterbacks. We should be seeing a minimum of 20 td passes this year. That's a reasonable expectation in today's nfl

Is anyone saying differently? 

 

The fact is, this team was completely void of talent 2 years ago after Caldwell blew things up.  People complained.  They've continued to complain because they don't like the approach Caldwell has taken in doing the vast majority of building through the draft.  That takes time to develop a roster when you come from where this team was using that approach. 

 

You might want to look at the rookie season of a guy like Peyton Manning.  He wasn't exactly setting the world on fire with his stats.  Guys like Wilson were gifted with an outstanding supporting cast.  Even a guy like Brady didn't walk into a team that was completely blown up and on the rebuild.

 

The process the Jags have followed under Caldwell is unique enough that other teams are watching the process to see if it ends up working.  Nobody has ever put the burden of turning things around on the shoulders of so many rookies and 2nd year players, but that's where we're at.  Year 3 is a critical one for Caldwell because it will show what direction this team is headed in.  It won't put his job in jeopardy if the team struggles, but it will certainly be discouraging.  The expectation is that year 3 is the year where the turnaround has to begin.  We'll see soon enough.

I think Caldwell, Bortles, and Gus are safe for one more year.  If we don't manage to win at least 5 games this year, I think Gus's seat will be hot, and he could be fired.  But the signs say that he's pretty safe right now.  The defense is being built around his philosophy.  He fired his offensive coordinator last year, which means that if we were to fire Gus this year we'd have yet another change at OC next year unless a new coach decided to keep Greg Olson.  That means Bortles would go from Fisch to Olson to new guy in back to back to back years.  


The writing on the wall suggests safety for another year for most, barring the team showing no progress.   As far as it goes, I don't think Gus's seat will warm up until we lose (if we do) ten games next year.  

Quote:Is anyone saying differently? 

 

The fact is, this team was completely void of talent 2 years ago after Caldwell blew things up.  People complained.  They've continued to complain because they don't like the approach Caldwell has taken in doing the vast majority of building through the draft.  That takes time to develop a roster when you come from where this team was using that approach. 

 

You might want to look at the rookie season of a guy like Peyton Manning.  He wasn't exactly setting the world on fire with his stats.  Guys like Wilson were gifted with an outstanding supporting cast.  Even a guy like Brady didn't walk into a team that was completely blown up and on the rebuild.

 

The process the Jags have followed under Caldwell is unique enough that other teams are watching the process to see if it ends up working.  Nobody has ever put the burden of turning things around on the shoulders of so many rookies and 2nd year players, but that's where we're at.  Year 3 is a critical one for Caldwell because it will show what direction this team is headed in.  It won't put his job in jeopardy if the team struggles, but it will certainly be discouraging.  The expectation is that year 3 is the year where the turnaround has to begin.  We'll see soon enough.

Never said manning was great his first year.... But by year 2 you knew he was competent.

IF bortles doesn't improve, I hope Caldwell doesn't pass on a quarterback in 2016. I can't stand the logic of passing on talent at the most important position just because you invested a pick in a guy 2 years ago. Too often we have seen that blow up in teams' faces.

Quote:Never said manning was great his first year.... But by year 2 you knew he was competent.

By year 2 for him (1999) he had and experienced and in their primes LT Tarik Glenn, WR Marvin Harrison, RB Edgerrin James, TEs Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard.  Did Bortles have anything closely resembling that array of surrounding talent for him last year?

 

clarification:  Edgerrin James was a rookie that year.  In Manning's rookie year, he had Marshall Faulk.

Quote:By year 2 for him (1999) he had and experienced and in their primes LT Tarik Glenn, WR Marvin Harrison, RB Edgerrin James, TEs Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard.  Did Bortles have anything closely resembling that array of surrounding talent for him last year?

 

The more and more you inspect the current Jacksonville roster situation, the more convinced I am that almost no other team has seen this type of build before. Even the expansion teams were thrown a bone to help them up a bit (and no, I don't think Jacksonville deserved that kind of treatment nor do I hold it against the expansion teams when they were starting).

 

Granted, there are teams out there who have cleaned the cabinets and started over, but most every one that I can think of had at least one or two installed "star" players that they could lean on. Gus and Dave really had nothing to start with when they got here.

Quote:Never said manning was great his first year.... But by year 2 you knew he was competent.

Again, look at the supporting cast.

Quote:By year 2 for him (1999) he had and experienced and in their primes LT Tarik Glenn, WR Marvin Harrison, RB Edgerrin James, TEs Ken Dilger and Marcus Pollard. Did Bortles have anything closely resembling that array of surrounding talent for him last year?


clarification: Edgerrin James was a rookie that year. In Manning's rookie year, he had Marshall Faulk.

Not to diminish those ofher guys, but pollard was meh, and harrison wasnt anything special prior to manning's arrival. We know good qbs make players look better. That should be no difft with blake.