So only progressives are for a redistribution of wealth? Lol.
All I know is that there has indeed been a redistribution of wealth, from the middle class to the wealthy owners.
Care to explain how this happened?
Quote:Conservatives hate the idea of paying for other people. Though that doesn't explain why we don't outlaw insurance altogether, since that's what insurance is. But then again many of them seem to be perfectly okay with businesses doing things that they don't want governments doing. Which has never made sense to me. And is a part of why I no longer identify conservative.
This! Fear government programs, but want private companies to do the work in which they havee no accountability to voters is bizarre to me as well.
Excellent way to put it, my good Dr.
Quote:So only progressives are for a redistribution of wealth? Lol.
All I know is that there has indeed been a redistribution of wealth, from the middle class to the wealthy owners.
Care to explain how this happened?
That's a very fair question, this is how I've seen it happen. Over the last few decades we have more mega-corporations and less small businesses. Now I know the progressive/liberal argument is that regulation keeps business from taking advantage of the public, but what people always fail to acknowledge is that regulation also stifles competition. That is the biggest factor in transfer of wealth, any economic study will tell you working for yourself is the quickest way to climb the economic ladder.
The issue is the vehicles of self-employment have become smaller for people to take advantage of. Forget having a privately owned retail establishment be it selling clothes, shoes, electronics, appliances, furniture, they're all dominated by mega-corporations at the national level. Long gone are the days of skilled workers those fields are now saturated with regulation and anti-self employment legislation (you can do it illegally but it'll catch up with you). Hell to legally operate a lawn service business you'll face an extensive amount of red-tape to get through. Point is people today are almost forced to accept a role as an employee which naturally limits their earning potential and ability to climb the economic ladder.
There's other factors, uncontrolled immigration has created a high supply for skilled labor driving down the cost of employment. Taxes on the middle class are higher then ever, inflation is another cause of the transfer of wealth (again the state is mostly at fault here).
Quote:<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="boudreaumw" data-cid="489071" data-time="1431560891">
Propaganda? I think that's stretching it a bit but it's understandable to think that way when you already dislike the guy. It is however, the best case ever made for not allowing prayer in school and I didn't even have to say it myself.
Let's be honest, if a buncha white redneck kids in Kansas were singing "George Walker Bush, Mmmmm, Mmmmmm, Mmmmmm" the Left would be apoplectic.
I think an argument could be made that natural resources belong to the country by extension of the citizens and ought not belong to private industry to exploit and be the single recipient of the profits from them. Now I don't know that I would agree with that, I just think it's a bad example to use. In addition you specifically used taking land as your example of progressive policies being equal to brutal North Korea.
Your Progressive buddies DO make that argument. Their current implementation activities are limited to places like Scotland, India and the Philippines. But make no mistake, the American version is chomping at the bit for their turn.
This idea that it's a disaster is very divisive because republicans say it is and democrats say it is not. Both have different points that are both true and false. I personally know several people that have benefited in immense ways due to the ACA and I have not been impacted in a negative way at all. I also know people who's premiums went up are lost their plans that they liked that I would term garbage. I'm fairly negative on it since it did nothing to reign in the insurance companies and that's something I feel they are the real issue with the medical system in general.
Did you know that 39% of the policies selected on an Exchange have a minimum deductible of $6,000? Did you know that family expense for healthcare increased by 14% last year to almost $10,000 per family? The ACA is terrible law and an even worse industrial paradigm. All those people who became insured are spending their money on premiums and can't afford to use the insurance or get no benefit from it.
I still would like to hear the explanation for the conspiracy theory of how limiting or removing money from politics is targeting the GOP's ability to win elections in a way that does not effect all parties.
Because it won't be "removing money", it'll be "removing my opponent's revenue streams." Your "choosing to see it differently" is merely fooling yourself that your guys are different. They aren't.
</blockquote>
You are completely making last part up. Believing it to be true does not make it true. Its entirely conjecture on your part.
Quote:So only progressives are for a redistribution of wealth? Lol.
All I know is that there has indeed been a redistribution of wealth, from the middle class to the wealthy owners.
Care to explain how this happened?
Bootstrapping free market American corporations are people too my friend.
Quote:That's a very fair question, this is how I've seen it happen. Over the last few decades we have more mega-corporations and less small businesses. Now I know the progressive/liberal argument is that regulation keeps business from taking advantage of the public, but what people always fail to acknowledge is that regulation also stifles competition. That is the biggest factor in transfer of wealth, any economic study will tell you working for yourself is the quickest way to climb the economic ladder.
The issue is the vehicles of self-employment have become smaller for people to take advantage of. Forget having a privately owned retail establishment be it selling clothes, shoes, electronics, appliances, furniture, they're all dominated by mega-corporations at the national level. Long gone are the days of skilled workers those fields are now saturated with regulation and anti-self employment legislation (you can do it illegally but it'll catch up with you). Hell to legally operate a lawn service business you'll face an extensive amount of red-tape to get through. Point is people today are almost forced to accept a role as an employee which naturally limits their earning potential and ability to climb the economic ladder.
There's other factors, uncontrolled immigration has created a high supply for skilled labor driving down the cost of employment. Taxes on the middle class are higher then ever, inflation is another cause of the transfer of wealth (again the state is mostly at fault here).
All fair points. Over regulation that disproportionately effects start ups stifle competition and the entrepreneurial spirit. On the other hand lack of common sense regulation allowed the mega corps we see today that have done the same thing but in a manner that has pushed wealth to a select group. Its a multi faceted problem.
Quote:All fair points. Over regulation that disproportionately effects start ups stifle competition and the entrepreneurial spirit. On the other hand lack of common sense regulation allowed the mega corps we see today that have done the same thing but in a manner that has pushed wealth to a select group. Its a multi faceted problem.
Agreed in a society and economy this big there has to be some regulation. I just believe it's gotten to the point where regulation is now used to control competition that's the problem.
Quote:Agreed in a society and economy this big there has to be some regulation. I just believe it's gotten to the point where regulation is now used to control competition that's the problem.
I think that's very apparent
Quote:Agreed in a society and economy this big there has to be some regulation. I just believe it's gotten to the point where regulation is now used to control competition that's the problem.
Regulation that only benefits business is bad. Corporate America has become so entrenched in our society that our politicians often serve the interests of big business over the interests of people. Even if Corporations
were people, none of them have any loyalty to the United States. Their loyalty is only to the color green. Corporations aren't evil. But they're greedy. And they often do things that hurt the interests of your average person.
Take for example the pay day loan industry. They have absurdly high interest rates, and prey on those who truly need help. Some of the most disadvantaged in society. Some politicians have tried regulating them, but they always find ways around the regulation. In some of the most absurd ways. And in some places they're regulated by people who are making money from them! And according to those same people, it's not a conflict of interest. That's absurd imo.
Quote:This! Fear government programs, but want private companies to do the work in which they havee no accountability to voters is bizarre to me as well.
Excellent way to put it, my good Dr.
You don't recognize the difference between voluntary participation in a market and government coercion, that right there is the problem with your position.
Quote:Regulation that only benefits business is bad. Corporate America has become so entrenched in our society that our politicians often serve the interests of big business over the interests of people. Even if Corporations were people, none of them have any loyalty to the United States. Their loyalty is only to the color green. Corporations aren't evil. But they're greedy. And they often do things that hurt the interests of your average person.
Take for example the pay day loan industry. They have absurdly high interest rates, and prey on those who truly need help. Some of the most disadvantaged in society. Some politicians have tried regulating them, but they always find ways around the regulation. In some of the most absurd ways. And in some places they're regulated by people who are making money from them! And according to those same people, it's not a conflict of interest. That's absurd imo.
I can't help but laugh at how you bounce back and forth between corporate personhood. First they aren't people, then they don't exhibit loyalty, then they're greedy. You say they aren't people then point to how they act like people. Non-persons cannot be either loyal or greedy; those are traits of people, not institutions.
And pay day loan businesses fill a very important gap in society. They provide money to people who couldn't otherwise obtain it. The high interest rates are because those people usually aren't credit worthy and because they have a very high default rate. Are you similarly opposed to used car lots that take weekly payments and charge 40% interest? Or do you just think business should assume all the risk without mechnisms to protect their profitability?
Quote:I can't help but laugh at how you bounce back and forth between corporate personhood. First they aren't people, then they don't exhibit loyalty, then they're greedy. You say they aren't people then point to how they act like people. Non-persons cannot be either loyal or greedy; those are traits of people, not institutions.
And pay day loan businesses fill a very important gap in society. They provide money to people who couldn't otherwise obtain it. The high interest rates are because those people usually aren't credit worthy and because they have a very high default rate. Are you similarly opposed to used car lots that take weekly payments and charge 40% interest? Or do you just think business should assume all the risk without mechnisms to protect their profitability?
I can't help but laugh at how you cling to corporate personhood because 'they show greed'. You sure love listening to the party line about corporations being people. Because it fits what you want. Corporations to have all the power. Surprised you don't like Obama, since he's a crony capitalist. Non-persons sure can be greedy. Dogs for example can be greedy, and they're not people. Dogs can also be loyal. But dogs aren't people now, are they?
Pay Day Loan businesses don't just charge 40% interest. They average pay day loan interest rate is between 391 and 521 percent. Government has tried to reasonably regulate the industry, but they haven't been able to because they always find a way around it. Is it not a conflict of interest for someone who is VP of a pay day loan company to be part of the regulation process?
Quote:I can't help but laugh at how you bounce back and forth between corporate personhood. First they aren't people, then they don't exhibit loyalty, then they're greedy. You say they aren't people then point to how they act like people. Non-persons cannot be either loyal or greedy; those are traits of people, not institutions.
And pay day loan businesses fill a very important gap in society. They provide money to people who couldn't otherwise obtain it. The high interest rates are because those people usually aren't credit worthy and because they have a very high default rate. Are you similarly opposed to used car lots that take weekly payments and charge 40% interest? Or do you just think business should assume all the risk without mechnisms to protect their profitability?
He is clearly pointing to the fact that the people that run the corporations run them in a manner that is just like people yet they do not face the ramifications as people. To try and spin it as you have, is disingenuous.
I imagine he would be opposed to any businesses who's sole source of income is predatory lending practices. Something most people are probably against but then again I'm sure there are plenty of people that celebrate the genius of people to find ways to make insane amounts of money of those less fortunate.
Quote:Regulation that only benefits business is bad. Corporate America has become so entrenched in our society that our politicians often serve the interests of big business over the interests of people. Even if Corporations were people, none of them have any loyalty to the United States. Their loyalty is only to the color green. Corporations aren't evil. But they're greedy. And they often do things that hurt the interests of your average person.
Take for example the pay day loan industry. They have absurdly high interest rates, and prey on those who truly need help. Some of the most disadvantaged in society. Some politicians have tried regulating them, but they always find ways around the regulation. In some of the most absurd ways. And in some places they're regulated by people who are making money from them! And according to those same people, it's not a conflict of interest. That's absurd imo.
I used payday loans for a while when I was rebuilding my credit. The interest rate is over a year period if you take that loan out every paycheck for a year that's what you'll pay otherwise it's a fixed fee. When I borrowed 200 it was a $25 fee due in two weeks (the next paycheck) + a $5 state fee so $200 cost me $230 in two weeks.
Honestly the payday loans where very reasonable compared to going late on rent or having the water shut off ect..... Now if you defaulted that's a different story.
Quote:I used payday loans for a while when I was rebuilding my credit. The interest rate is over a year period if you take that loan out every paycheck for a year that's what you'll pay otherwise it's a fixed fee. When I borrowed 200 it was a $25 fee due in two weeks (the next paycheck) + a $5 state fee so $200 cost me $230 in two weeks.
Honestly the payday loans where very reasonable compared to going late on rent or having the water shut off ect..... Now if you defaulted that's a different story.
The issue is that your average pay day loan customer is going to have to take out another pay day loan to pay off their first loan. Because they're truly desperate in the first place. Unless they're going to be coming into a new source of income soon, they're going to not be able to pay back the money they owed because they're still paying for the things they borrowed for in the first place. And they set it up so it's easy to get pretty far into debt.
My wife and I were pretty desperate at one point. After we had our first set of kids. She lost her job, and we had all kinds of bills. We were fortunate enough not to have to take out a pay day loan because we had a friend who loaned us the money we needed (and let us pay it back when we could). It took us a while to be able to pay her back because we were in a truly desperate situation. Had we taken out a pay day loan, we'd have probably had to take out another one, and then another one, and another one until my wife finally was able to finish college. It's not like we hadn't saved or prepared. It was that unexpected things came up, and came up at the worst possible time. Some people end up in an endless cycle of pay day loans because of that.
They have their places, but they should be subject to regulations that prevent predatory lending.
Quote:The issue is that your average pay day loan customer is going to have to take out another pay day loan to pay off their first loan. Because they're truly desperate in the first place. Unless they're going to be coming into a new source of income soon, they're going to not be able to pay back the money they owed because they're still paying for the things they borrowed for in the first place. And they set it up so it's easy to get pretty far into debt.
My wife and I were pretty desperate at one point. After we had our first set of kids. She lost her job, and we had all kinds of bills. We were fortunate enough not to have to take out a pay day loan because we had a friend who loaned us the money we needed (and let us pay it back when we could). It took us a while to be able to pay her back because we were in a truly desperate situation. Had we taken out a pay day loan, we'd have probably had to take out another one, and then another one, and another one until my wife finally was able to finish college. It's not like we hadn't saved or prepared. It was that unexpected things came up, and came up at the worst possible time. Some people end up in an endless cycle of pay day loans because of that.
They have their places, but they should be subject to regulations that prevent predatory lending.
I hear you, I've been there, at one point we where stuck in the $500 every other week we owed $555. I don't blame the company though it wasn't anyone's fault we just had more bills then money. I just don't consider it predatory lending, they're upfront on the cost and how much you're paying, for the people using them (myself included for a long time) it's a decision of taking the loan or not paying something. the real solution is helping people out of poverty not punishing the people offering them services.
Predatory loans to me are more like the housing loans people where given with the 2 year ARMS and Balloon payments prior to 2008, or any of the "creative" loans before the housing crash.
Quote:I hear you, I've been there, at one point we where stuck in the $500 every other week we owed $555. I don't blame the company though it wasn't anyone's fault we just had more bills then money. I just don't consider it predatory lending, they're upfront on the cost and how much you're paying, for the people using them (myself included for a long time) it's a decision of taking the loan or not paying something. the real solution is helping people out of poverty not punishing the people offering them services.
Predatory loans to me are more like the housing loans people where given with the 2 year ARMS and Balloon payments prior to 2008, or any of the "creative" loans before the housing crash.
I also was stuck in this cycle for about 3 months until income tax came in and I got out of it for good. I was about 19 when this happened.
Quote:I hear you, I've been there, at one point we where stuck in the $500 every other week we owed $555. I don't blame the company though it wasn't anyone's fault we just had more bills then money. I just don't consider it predatory lending, they're upfront on the cost and how much you're paying, for the people using them (myself included for a long time) it's a decision of taking the loan or not paying something. the real solution is helping people out of poverty not punishing the people offering them services.
Predatory loans to me are more like the housing loans people where given with the 2 year ARMS and Balloon payments prior to 2008, or any of the "creative" loans before the housing crash.
They trap low income borrowers in a cycle of debt. I'd consider that predatory. Again, they have their uses. If you can pay it off like you did, then it's not nearly as bad. But when you can't, and you have to roll over your debt -- that's when it gets really bad. And that's who they're really marketing to. People on government assistance including people in the military. Voters have wanted to put a cap on interest rates charged by pay day loan companies, but they've had lobbyists fighting it at every turn. Their idea is to get people into a cycle of debt, so they keep coming back for more.
Quote:I also was stuck in this cycle for about 3 months until income tax came in and I got out of it for good. I was about 19 when this happened.
yeah it's not fun and can be pretty scary but sometimes the options are all bad and you just have to do the best you can.
Quote:They trap low income borrowers in a cycle of debt. I'd consider that predatory. Again, they have their uses. If you can pay it off like you did, then it's not nearly as bad. But when you can't, and you have to roll over your debt -- that's when it gets really bad. And that's who they're really marketing to. People on government assistance including people in the military. Voters have wanted to put a cap on interest rates charged by pay day loan companies, but they've had lobbyists fighting it at every turn. Their idea is to get people into a cycle of debt, so they keep coming back for more.
What do you mean roll over? When I used them you HAD to pay it back the next paycheck or it was a collection issue after that. Then you had to wait 24 hours until you could take another one out.