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He good.

Quote:He good.

 

That - and he's been in about 500 playoff games.

passed MJ.  Of course Jordan had the record in 13 seasons not 14.  Also missed a season in the prime of his career to play baseball.  MJ also played in college.  


Sorry if I derailed this and turned it into an MJ vs Lebron debate and who is better but if I did...


To those who say all Mj did was score points and Lebron is a better team player don't forget 3 times MJ was the NBA steals leader and 9 years of his career he was an all NBA defender  all while leading the league in scoring for 10 seasons.

 

It took more game for Lebron to pass him but Lebron took 119 less shots.... so the point is moot.


Lebron talent wise is better than Jordan. Jordan was swept in the 1st round of the playoffs when he was 22 but when Lebron was 22, he went to the NBA finals with a no body roster.


If I was starting a team from scratch with every NBA player ever, I'd choose Lebron.

Quote:It took more game for Lebron to pass him but Lebron took 119 less shots.... so the point is moot.


Lebron talent wise is better than Jordan. Jordan was swept in the 1st round of the playoffs when he was 22 but when Lebron was 22, he went to the NBA finals with a no body roster.


If I was starting a team from scratch with every NBA player ever, I'd choose Lebron.

lets see how much of this I can pick apart.  

119 less shots.  Well Lebron typically plays closer to the rim than Jordan did over the course of his career where the FG% is higher

Talent wise Lebron is comparable to Magic Johnson more than Jordan.  They are both more talented than each other at their respective positions, although each played multiple positions.  Physically ya Lebron is better but talent wise they have different games so that is hard to compare.


You probably prefer Lebron because he passes more and is a better team player?

However Jordan Dominated at both ends of the court his entire career.  An example is being a 9 time NBA first team defender, Lebron has accomplished that feat only 5 times.  

Jordan also led the league in scoring 10 times vs Lebrons once

Jordan also has 700 more steals 2514 vs 1749

Lebron has more assists 7461 vs 5633

Lebron has more total rebounds 7707 vs 6672  

In those two categories is slightly better 

Jordan puts up 30+ pts per game in every postseason but one

Lebron accomplishes this fete 5 times.

Playoff turnovers Jordan has 546 Lebron has 751


so at 22 Jordan was a second year player and been to the playoffs twice and he lost to the team that would eventually win the finals.

at 22 Lebron was a 4th year player and been to the playoffs twice.  O and he got swept


well ya lets look at that 2nd year Bulls team Jordan was on and find all the stars.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1986.html

o wait there are none.


O wait Jordan only played 18 games that year and went into the playoffs without a seasons worth of momentum to call upon

O wait Jordan still averaged 43.7 pts in those playoffs.


now for fun go back and look at the Jordan playoff gamelogs and find me games that show Jordan quit on his team?  Which Lebron did vs the Magic in 09 and more recently the Mavericks.


took Jordan 7 years to get his first championship by 10 years in he had 3

took Lebron 9, took him 13 to get 3.

I'll take Jordan everyday.


Go ahead and make the Pippen argument next I've got some good ones for that.

Quote:It took more game for Lebron to pass him but Lebron took 119 less shots.... so the point is moot.

Lebron talent wise is better than Jordan. Jordan was swept in the 1st round of the playoffs when he was 22 but when Lebron was 22, he went to the NBA finals with a no body roster.

If I was starting a team from scratch with every NBA player ever, I'd choose Lebron.

Are you old enough to have seen Jordan play? There's no comparison really in my opinion having seen them both. Jordan was the greatest player I've ever seen and growing up a Celtics fan I hated him. No disrespect to Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain or anyone else before my time that's been in the "greatest to ever play" discussion. I just didn't witness their play aside from a few snippets of highlights. I saw a lot of Bulls games in the 90's.

Jordan was the better scorer.

 

LeBron is the better all-around player.

 

 

(my opinion)

Quote:Jordan was the better scorer.

 

LeBron is the better all-around player.

 

 

(my opinion)

the only thing I don't agree with when I see this point made is you forget how great of a defender Jordan was.  People then like to bring up Lebron is a better team player but you look at a few different stats over their careers and I don't feel it adds up.


Jordan  30.1 pts 6.2 reb 5.3 assists 2.3 steals 2.7 turnovers

Lebron  27.1 pts 7.3 reb 7    assists 1.6 steals 3.4 turnovers


Basically what I'm saying is Jordan gave you more points, less turnovers, and more steals per game.  If you throw out 38 and 39 year old Jordan with the wizards all of his numbers go up.  


Now for some advanced stats to leave you with.  Per 100 possessions both players give you a 103 career defensive rating, Jordan gets the edge on offense rating 118-116   

Advanced stats in the playoffs per 100 possessions backs this up further.  Jordan stepped up his game in the post season, Lebrons slipped

Jordan 118 O 104 D  Lebron 115 O 101 D


I only wonder how much better Jordan would be in a league that emphasized him shooting 3 pointers more and allowed the floor to be more spaced out like in todays NBA.  Or how much worse Lebron would be doing his isolation drives into the paint with Ewing, Lambear, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson waiting to smash him down.

While their defense is similar statistically, I give LeBron the edge because of his versatility. He can (and has) guard all 5 positions well. He is a SF/PF that shut down peak Derrick Rose in the ECF and shut down Curry whenever he matched up on him last NBA finals. That's incredibly impressive for a 6'8 250 pound player to be able to d up stud PGs.

Better shooter.... Jordan

More clutch.... Jordan

Better passer.... LeBron

Better rebounder.... LeBron

Defense.... Even



I think this breakdown is fair.

Also you have to remember that Jordan played in a higher scoring era than we are in right now.

Quote:Also you have to remember that Jordan played in a higher scoring era than we are in right now.

 

not significantly higher scoring 1 or 2 points a season difference with many seasons evening out according to league averages.

Quote:Better shooter.... Jordan

More clutch.... Jordan

Better passer.... LeBron

Better rebounder.... LeBron

Defense.... Even



I think this breakdown is fair.

 

Defensively Jordan has takes the cake there, Lebron is good on Defense Jordan was exceptional. Jordan has more blocks as well in less seasons, if you only count his chicago years.  All in less games... 150 less games.  I'll agree with the other two parts.

Quote:While their defense is similar statistically, I give LeBron the edge because of his versatility. He can (and has) guard all 5 positions well. He is a SF/PF that shut down peak Derrick Rose in the ECF and shut down Curry whenever he matched up on him last NBA finals. That's incredibly impressive for a 6'8 250 pound player to be able to d up stud PGs.

Lebron can play all 5 positions well I can agree with that, however if Jordan played in this era he could do the same thing.  There are just not a lot of pure centers or power forwards in the league today.  It is a more versatile league and that factors into helping Lebron defend against 5* positions.  Is Love a power forward in Jordan's era or a small forward? Lebron has always been a PG in the body of a PF.


Lebron's attributes that are better than Jordan's aren't significant statistically enough compared to the areas Jordan was better at.


1.5 assists more vs 3 more points.  1 more rebound vs .7 more steals.   .7 less turnovers per game.  Jordan has more blocks at a smaller size. 6-0 in the finals.  4 more defensive 1st teams.  9 more scoring titles.  3 time steals leader.  The playoffs ppg difference.


This is a great time to have this debate because Lebron is only 11 games away from the total games Jordan played in his career so statistically they are at their most comparable now even with Jordans Washington years.  

 

What are going to happen to Lebrons numbers over the next couple years when his game starts to deteriorate more?

How much better are Jordans if he doesn't go play baseball?

 

I thought you might be willing to be objective in this discussion but alas you just sound like a Jordan truther. Have a good night.

Quote:the only thing I don't agree with when I see this point made is you forget how great of a defender Jordan was. People then like to bring up Lebron is a better team player but you look at a few different stats over their careers and I don't feel it adds up.


Jordan 30.1 pts 6.2 reb 5.3 assists 2.3 steals 2.7 turnovers

Lebron 27.1 pts 7.3 reb 7 assists 1.6 steals 3.4 turnovers


Basically what I'm saying is Jordan gave you more points, less turnovers, and more steals per game. If you throw out 38 and 39 year old Jordan with the wizards all of his numbers go up.


Now for some advanced stats to leave you with. Per 100 possessions both players give you a 103 career defensive rating, Jordan gets the edge on offense rating 118-116

Advanced stats in the playoffs per 100 possessions backs this up further. Jordan stepped up his game in the post season, Lebrons slipped

Jordan 118 O 104 D Lebron 115 O 101 D


I only wonder how much better Jordan would be in a league that emphasized him shooting 3 pointers more and allowed the floor to be more spaced out like in todays NBA. Or how much worse Lebron would be doing his isolation drives into the paint with Ewing, Lambear, Malone, Barkley, and Robinson waiting to smash him down.

Please tell me you aren't stupid enough to think that a higher Defensice Rating is better than lower.

Quote:Please tell me you aren't stupid enough to think that a higher Defensice Rating is better than lower.

I can most certainly make mistakes when digging up stats. Even with my mistake the difference is pretty dann minimal. So LeBron has been better in the playoffs on defense according to that stat. Jordan still averaged more steals and more points. I'm not blind to how great LeBron is and he is on a level very close to the one Jordan reached. But he isnt there and he has not surpassed him either and if he was going to he needed to do it already.


Go back and watch some Jordan games throughout his Chicago years. Watch pre title first 3 Pete 2nd 3 pete. Watch the 18 game season playoffs he got swept in.


Then go back and watch the mavericks and spurs put a basketball clinic on LeBron. Watch the magic in 09 game 6. Watch him refuse to shake hands after losing in the ecf finals to the magic. Watch him collude with superstars to make super teams.


He had a shot to be better than Jordan and as a basketball fan I was hoping I would see it, but I didnt.

Quote:I thought you might be willing to be objective in this discussion but alas you just sound like a Jordan truther. Have a good night.

That's pretty much my thoughts too.


People who won't even entertain the idea aren't worth having a discussion with.


"Lebron averages more rebounds..... yea but Jordans steals! Jordan never lost in the finals!"


Jordan also quit at the prime of his career and he may have lost to those rockets teams because no one on the Bulls could guard Hakeem.


It is what it is though.

Quote:I can most certainly make mistakes when digging up stats. Even with my mistake the difference is pretty dann minimal. So LeBron has been better in the playoffs on defense according to that stat. Jordan still averaged more steals and more points. I'm not blind to how great LeBron is and he is on a level very close to the one Jordan reached. But he isnt there and he has not surpassed him either and if he was going to he needed to do it already.


Go back and watch some Jordan games throughout his Chicago years. Watch pre title first 3 Pete 2nd 3 pete. Watch the 18 game season playoffs he got swept in.


Then go back and watch the mavericks and spurs put a basketball clinic on LeBron. Watch the magic in 09 game 6. Watch him refuse to shake hands after losing in the ecf finals to the magic. Watch him collude with superstars to make super teams.


He had a shot to be better than Jordan and as a basketball fan I was hoping I would see it, but I didnt.

Instead of just using Lebrons bad games, how about you go back and watch the Finals the last 2 years. One of those teams had 73 wins....


You can certainly say Jordan is better but if you're not even going to entertain the idea that Lebron is on his level, why argue?

Lot of good points here between the MJ and Lebron debate. Not a whole lot more to add. MJ is the GOAT. I was able to see each respective career in its entirety. I watched in awe many times watching Jordan. He was unbelievable at times.

Quote:Lot of good points here between the MJ and Lebron debate. Not a whole lot more to add. MJ is the GOAT. I was able to see each respective career in its entirety. I watched in awe many times watching Jordan. He was unbelievable at times.

Except for the fact that Lebrons career isn't over.....

He good.

 

He not Jordan.

 

Will never be Jordan.