Quote:For the purposes of this discussion, take JJ watt out your vocabulary. Athletically he is head shoulders and thigh pads ahead of Leonard Williams, not even close.
He was picked at ten because he only played the position for one year because he started as a TE in college. His agility tests were elite for a safety let alone a lineman. Its rare that in a game that has been played this long u have a player that is truly singular, and JJ watt is. That's why I think a teams is going to make a huge mistake thinking that Williams is on the same level as watt.
You may want to fact check the whole "he only played the position for one year" thing
The thing against Leonard is insane.
Who is less of a risk here: all those outside pass rushers or Leonard? Who has the highest ceiling: OPR or Leonard?
My money is on Leonard.
Titans and Jags aren't going to make a trade and I can't the Jags wanting to make this move anyway. I don't think it makes a lot of sense.
Quote:For the purposes of this discussion, take JJ watt out your vocabulary. Athletically he is head shoulders and thigh pads ahead of Leonard Williams, not even close.
He was picked at ten because he only played the position for one year because he started as a TE in college. His agility tests were elite for a safety let alone a lineman. Its rare that in a game that has been played this long u have a player that is truly singular, and JJ watt is. That's why I think a teams is going to make a huge mistake thinking that Williams is on the same level as watt.
A bit of hyperbole, but your point isn't bad. He was elite size and bench press for a safety (duh), but he was just average for a safety agility wise and would have had a terrible 40 time. Here is what the spider chart would look like w/ Watt as a safety:
http://mockdraftable.com/player/591/position/23/
Tennesse would defecate themselves if this happened. Can you imagine getting picks from us, then getting an RG3 type of trade with the Eagles?
Quote:I'm not sure if anyone caught the Alex Marvez interview with JP Shadrick on the homepage but he floated this as a possibility. If Tennessee, for the sake of this argument, will move down for a mid round draft pick would you do it? Keep in mind in this scenario Tennessee is shopping this pick around for teams under us as well.
If they would take a 4th or 5th for us to move up to 2, I would do it.
With that said, i don't see Tennessee trading with someone in the division.
Quote:The thing against Leonard is insane.
Who is less of a risk here: all those outside pass rushers or Leonard? Who has the highest ceiling: OPR or Leonard?
My money is on Leonard.
Trading up is something you do when you have a crippling need at a position and none of the top prospects will fall to you, or something you do if you feel like you're "one player away" and all seven draft picks wouldn't make the team anyway.
The Jaguars aren't in either boat. If anything, they can afford the luxury of trading back because, aside from Williams, this feels like a pretty flat draft at the top, and the player you'll get at 12, 19 or 20 isn't a massive dropoff from the player you'd get at 3, especially with guys like Kevin White jumping up the boards and pushing better players down as a result.
I think Williams will ultimately be the best player in this draft, but I don't believe that a five-tech end is worth trading up for on a team with as many holes as the Jaguars. If that means losing him and "settling" for an elite LEO prospect, so be it.
Something else to keep this in perspective: the Bucs will take a QB. Period. If the Titans trade down, it'll almost certainly be because they don't want a QB, but know another team that does. The odds of someone leapfrogging us for Williams are low, and even if someone does, that leaves Mariota on the board for us to put on the block to the highest bidder.
Quote:Trading up is something you do when you have a crippling need at a position and none of the top prospects will fall to you, or something you do if you feel like you're "one player away" and all seven draft picks wouldn't make the team anyway.
The Jaguars aren't in either boat. If anything, they can afford the luxury of trading back because, aside from Williams, this feels like a pretty flat draft at the top, and the player you'll get at 12, 19 or 20 isn't a massive dropoff from the player you'd get at 3, especially with guys like Kevin White jumping up the boards and pushing better players down as a result.
I think Williams will ultimately be the best player in this draft, but I don't believe that a five-tech end is worth trading up for on a team with as many holes as the Jaguars. If that means losing him and "settling" for an elite LEO prospect, so be it.
Something else to keep this in perspective: the Bucs will take a QB. Period. If the Titans trade down, it'll almost certainly be because they don't want a QB, but know another team that does. The odds of someone leapfrogging us for Williams are low, and even if someone does, that leaves Mariota on the board for us to put on the block to the highest bidder.
I totally agree. I wouldn't want to trade up for Williams but I think he's going to be there for us at 3.
I disagree with the premise that you can get the same player at 3 that you can at 12, 19 or 20. Maybe you get lucky and get a Beckham Jr type or maybe you dont...
Quote:You may want to fact check the whole "he only played the position for one year" thing
Correction, two years after moving from the and rabbeting schools.
Quote:A bit of hyperbole, but your point isn't bad. He was elite size and bench press for a safety (duh), but he was just average for a safety agility wise and would have had a terrible 40 time. Here is what the spider chart would look like w/ Watt as a safety: <a class="bbc_url" href='http://mockdraftable.com/player/591/position/23/'>http://mockdraftable.com/player/591/position/23/</a>
I was referring more to the 20 yard shuttle and the 3 cone drill. Watt would have ranked 8th and 4 th respectively at this past combine among safeties.
More importantly his 3 cone would have beaten any d lineman by two tenths of a second. His short shuttle would have been 4th and his broad jump would have been tired for fifth. That's elite Abraham to go with elite production for a guy weighing 300 pounds. Leonard Williams jumped less than 9 feet in the broad. Less than 30 inches in the vert tab a shade under 5 flat and wasn't near the top in any agility drills to go along with half the tables for loss.
That's good on cleats?
Quote:A bit of hyperbole, but your point isn't bad. He was elite size and bench press for a safety (duh), but he was just average for a safety agility wise and would have had a terrible 40 time. Here is what the spider chart would look like w/ Watt as a safety: <a class="bbc_url" href='http://mockdraftable.com/player/591/position/23/'>http://mockdraftable.com/player/591/position/23/</a>
I was referring more to the 20 yard shuttle and the 3 cone drill. Watt would have ranked 8th and 4 th respectively at this past combine among safeties.
More importantly his 3 cone would have beaten any d lineman by two tenths of a second. His short shuttle would have been 4th and his broad jump would have been tired for fifth. That's elite Abraham to go with elite production for a guy weighing 300 pounds. Leonard Williams jumped less than 9 feet in the broad. Less than 30 inches in the vert tab a shade under 5 flat and wasn't near the top in any agility drills to go along with half the tables for loss.
That's good on cleats?
Quote:I was referring more to the 20 yard shuttle and the 3 cone drill. Watt would have ranked 8th and 4 th respectively at this past combine among safeties.
More importantly his 3 cone would have beaten any d lineman by two tenths of a second. His short shuttle would have been 4th and his broad jump would have been tired for fifth. That's elite Abraham to go with elite production for a guy weighing 300 pounds. Leonard Williams jumped less than 9 feet in the broad. Less than 30 inches in the vert tab a shade under 5 flat and wasn't near the top in any agility drills to go along with half the tables for loss.
That's good on cleats?
And with all that said... He's still a safer pick and has a higher ceiling than any of the outside pass rushers in this draft.
Just take Fowler and call it an evening.
Quote:I'm not sure if anyone caught the Alex Marvez interview with JP Shadrick on the homepage but he floated this as a possibility. If Tennessee, for the sake of this argument, will move down for a mid round draft pick would you do it? Keep in mind in this scenario Tennessee is shopping this pick around for teams under us as well.
I wouldn't trade anything to a division foe, especially the tacks.
Quote:I was referring more to the 20 yard shuttle and the 3 cone drill. Watt would have ranked 8th and 4 th respectively at this past combine among safeties.
More importantly his 3 cone would have beaten any d lineman by two tenths of a second. His short shuttle would have been 4th and his broad jump would have been tired for fifth. That's elite Abraham to go with elite production for a guy weighing 300 pounds. Leonard Williams jumped less than 9 feet in the broad. Less than 30 inches in the vert tab a shade under 5 flat and wasn't near the top in any agility drills to go along with half the tables for loss.
That's good on cleats?
Not to derail but was that an auto-correct from athleticism to Abraham? You'd like to think auto-correct could do a little better than that!
Quote:Even if he turns into the next JJ Watt? Because that's the type of upside he has.
If he's the next JJ Watt the Titans will certainly take him, there's no need to trade up one spot with a division rival.
I would, but no way Tennessee does us that favor. Can you imagine the backlash from their fans if Williams turned out to be Defensive Rookie of the Year and Pro Bowl bound for another team in their division?? Won't happen.
Quote:I would, but no way Tennessee does us that favor. Can you imagine the backlash from their fans if Williams turned out to be Defensive Rookie of the Year and Pro Bowl bound for another team in their division?? Won't happen.
What if he busts? Then they'll be laughing at us. It can go either way. Regardless I don't see two division rivals making any kind of trade here.
Frail, that's the argument for picking a guy like Leonard Williams. If you think that he is going to be in the top 5-10 in pass rush efficiency from the DT spot for a Decade or so and that's his FLOOR then I can understand where you're coming from. I may not agree with the premise, but I can understand it. MY gut reaction is predicated on the Historical trend of the position and the overall impact to a Defense, but If the Jags Think he is a full tier above all the edge guys then you take him.
In fairness, I have watched Fowler and I didn't understand him being talked about in the top ten, Ray is undersized, Gregory is undersized, above average production and less explosive than expected for his height and weight, and Beasley is adding weight to an undersized frame and there are questions as to how he would hold up on First down.
Truth be told, this year above all others I don't envy being Dave Caldwell. In my perfect world the Titans take a none QB prospect and we can trade down.