Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

If the Jags plan to be good in the coming year Kahn has to look into the history of George Steinbrenner. He will have to BUY some excellent players. Since the inception of our team all I have ever heard is that we are "growing, building and planning. The time is NOW not next year, not in a couple of years. We want a team that WINS now. To do that we need players that can actually RUN and CATCH the ball. Players that can defend our quarterbacks and kickers. When do we want this? NOW! so lets act on free agency and spend money on players not swimming pools.

Just my opinion.

Football is not baseball. Football has a salary cap. Football has revenue sharing.

Because signing a boatload of high-priced free agents always reaps such positive results....

Daniel Snyder went to the Steinbrenner school of pro sports see what it got him?  Also like DF said baseball football much different

This is a dumb idea....

 

If it's anything the NFL has shown us it's that you build your team through good quality scouting, analyzing and draft choices. Nothing more and nothing less. Sure, signing free agents is key and vital. But it depends on who that player is and what he means to your team. New England and Seattle are really good recent examples of building through the draft and maybe signing a free agent or two to help shore up an imediate need. Pittsburgh has done that for years. That franchise won't budge much when it comes to their pocket book. They'll use you up and find your replacement before you can blink.

 

Dallas and Washington are examples as to why you don't overspend in the market. Jimmy Johnson built that team through the draft. Not free agency. Jerry hasn't figured it out yet since....

Quote:If the Jags plan to be good in the coming year Kahn has to look into the history of George Steinbrenner. He will have to BUY some excellent players. Since the inception of our team all I have ever heard is that we are "growing, building and planning. The time is NOW not next year, not in a couple of years. We want a team that WINS now. To do that we need players that can actually RUN and CATCH the ball. Players that can defend our quarterbacks and kickers. When do we want this? NOW! so lets act on free agency and spend money on players not swimming pools.

Just my opinion.

 

 

If you were around since the inception of the team, and you didn't hear about the Jaguars being aggressive in free agency, you must not have been listening.

 

In the early days of the franchise, the Jaguars were players in big name free agency.

 

They signed guys like Leon Searcy, Jeff Lageman, Gary Walker, Eddie Robinson, Carnell Lake, Bryce Paup, Hardy Nickerson.  They made a play for DT Gilbert Brown.

 

Later on, the team has taken a frugal approach to free agency.

 

But to suggest the team never tried to have more than bargain basement free agents is simply not accurate.

Quote:Daniel Snyder went to the Steinbrenner school of pro sports see what it got him?  Also like DF said baseball football much different

 

Exactly.  Spending more than anyone else in NFL free agency doesn't give you the same return as it MIGHT in MLB.  Even the New York Yankees have had to adjust their spending habits over the past several years.  They're strapped with overpriced free agents they can't unload like A-Rod, and they've had their hands tied as far as really going out and spending the way they did a decade or more ago.  The reality is that the Yankees are the exact opposite of what this team needs to do.

 

4 of the playoff teams in the 2014 MLB playoffs (Oakland, Pittsburgh, Kansas City, and Baltimore) had payrolls that were half or less than the highest payroll in the league (Los Angeles).  The team that ultimately won the World Series had a payroll that was around $80 million less than the Dodgers $234 million payroll.  The Dodgers were washed out of the playoffs in the divisional round 3 games to 1 by a team that had a payroll less than half theirs (St. Louis).

 

Careless spending on free agents may get fans like you excited, but that strategy rarely delivers, especially in the salary cap era of the NFL.  Teams that do go that route have a tendency to flame out quickly if they see any success, and wind up in a cap mess that assures they're not going to turn things around quickly.  Snyderbrenner in Washington is a cautionary tale.  You'd think people would eventually figure it out.  Build through the draft and augment in free agency to fill specific needs.  Spend where you have to, and not just because the guy has a name certain fans recognize.  How many times does THIS franchise need to get burned before certain fans figure it out?

Quote:If you were around since the inception of the team, and you didn't hear about the Jaguars being aggressive in free agency, you must not have been listening.

 

In the early days of the franchise, the Jaguars were players in big name free agency.

 

They signed guys like Leon Searcy, Jeff Lageman, Gary Walker, Eddie Robinson, Carnell Lake, Bryce Paup, Hardy Nickerson.  They made a play for DT Gilbert Brown.

 

Later on, the team has taken a frugal approach to free agency.

 

But to suggest the team never tried to have more than bargain basement free agents is simply not accurate.

They also had an expanded salary cap which they abused and ultimately paid the price for when that run finally came to an end in 1999/2000. 

Quote:This is a dumb idea....

 

If it's anything the NFL has shown us it's that you build your team through good quality scouting, analyzing and draft choices. Nothing more and nothing less. Sure, signing free agents is key and vital. But it depends on who that player is and what he means to your team. New England and Seattle are really good recent examples of building through the draft and maybe signing a free agent or two to help shore up an imediate need. Pittsburgh has done that for years. That franchise won't budge much when it comes to their pocket book. They'll use you up and find your replacement before you can blink.

 

Dallas and Washington are examples as to why you don't overspend in the market. Jimmy Johnson built that team through the draft. Not free agency. Jerry hasn't figured it out yet since....

 

(Emphasis added)

 

The text in bold reflects the truth about free agency.

 

It isn't necessarily about acquiring NAME players, as much as it is players that FIT your scheme and locker room.

 

The Patriots have signed name free agents before, including guys like Corey Dillon and Rodney Harrison and Junior Seau, and most recently Aqib Talib and Darrelle Revis.  But they have also reaped the benefits from more obscure signings like Mike Vrabel, Amendola, Antowain Smith, and trades like Wes Welker.

 

Free agency can be an important tool with which to supplement the building of your team, as the above referenced signings attest, but it should not be the primary means to do so.

 

I think there are big name players in this free agent class, who, if they hit the market without being tagged or re-signed, could definitely help this team.

 

I think there are lesser known players who could do the same thing.

 

But the draft is still the lifeblood of any team.

Quote:(Emphasis added)

 

The text in bold reflects the truth about free agency.

 

It isn't necessarily about acquiring NAME players, as much as it is players that FIT your scheme and locker room.

 

The Patriots have signed name free agents before, including guys like Corey Dillon and Rodney Harrison and Junior Seau, and most recently Aqib Talib and Darrelle Revis.  But they have also reaped the benefits from more obscure signings like Mike Vrabel, Amendola, Antoine Smith, and trades like Wes Welker.

 

Free agency can be an important tool with which to supplement the building of your team, as the above referenced signings attest, but it should not be the primary means to do so.

 

I think there are big name players in this free agent class, who, if they hit the market without being tagged or re-signed, could definitely help this team.

 

I think there are lesser known players who could do the same thing.

 

But the draft is still the lifeblood of any team.

 

Quote:This is a dumb idea....

 

If it's anything the NFL has shown us it's that you build your team through good quality scouting, analyzing and draft choices. Nothing more and nothing less. Sure, signing free agents is key and vital. But it depends on who that player is and what he means to your team. New England and Seattle are really good recent examples of building through the draft and maybe signing a free agent or two to help shore up an imediate need. Pittsburgh has done that for years. That franchise won't budge much when it comes to their pocket book. They'll use you up and find your replacement before you can blink.

 

Dallas and Washington are examples as to why you don't overspend in the market. Jimmy Johnson built that team through the draft. Not free agency. Jerry hasn't figured it out yet since....

 

BINGO!

 

Finding the right free agents is far more crucial than just signing the most expensive or the guys with the most recognizable names.  This is where your pro scouts earn their keep. 

Quote:They also had an expanded salary cap which they abused and ultimately paid the price for when that run finally came to an end in 1999/2000. 

Not so much an "expanded" salary cap, per se. 

 

Starting from scratch, they naturally had more cap room than anyone else to sign free agents.  With the new stadium, abundance of club seats, etc., the Jaguars were amongst the league leaders in income at one point, so that helped too.

 

But I still maintain it wasn't the free agency excess that was the true cause of the Jaguars collapse, but draft day failures from 1995-1999 that led to the collapse of the team at that point.

 

The team missed on high round draft picks like 1995 2nd rounders RT Brian DeMarco  and LB Bryan Schwartz, and 3rd rounder S Chris Hudson.

 

The team missed on 1997 2nd round pick S Mike Logan, 3rd round pick LB James Hamilton.

 

All of these guys should have been hitting their primes in 1999-2000 and been around to provide veteran leadership in the early 2000s.

 

These misses led directly to free agency signings of T Leon Searcy, LB Lonnie Marts, Hardy Nickerson and Eddie Robinson, Bryce Paup and Carnell Lake.

 

Not only did they overpay to fill the holes created by those misses, but they created an older team on top of that.  Having to sign older players for veteran leadership increased the chances for FA misses.

 

This pattern of draft misses followed by FA signings continued through the Shack and Jack era (missed on Reggie Williams and Matt Jones to sign WR Jerry Porter), through the Gene Smith era (Missed on DEs Derrick Harvey and Quentin Groves to sign DE Aaron Kampman).  Draft misses have dictated the FA approach of Caldwell to a degree.

 

The moral of the story:  Hit on the draft picks, save in free agency and reduce the risk of a FA bust.

Never heard of the guy but Khan is just fine the way he is. He's doing everything a good owner should do and then some.

well... it's good to 'vent' sometimes, I guess. The truth though is that putting a lot of faith in free agents is, at best, a gamble, and at worst, an outright waste of money. In our situation, the best choice is for us to 'stay the path' and build via the draft and only rely on f/a as a short term stop gap.

Our teams issues won't get fixed by this draft and f/a acquisition alone, but we're 'hopeful' that we're moving in the right direction. Sorry that it's not a quick turnaround, but that's the depth of woe this team is trying to recover from.

Quote:well... it's good to 'vent' sometimes, I guess. The truth though is that putting a lot of faith in free agents is, at best, a gamble, and at worst, an outright waste of money. In our situation, the best choice is for us to 'stay the path' and build via the draft and only rely on f/a as a short term stop gap.

Our teams issues won't get fixed by this draft and f/a acquisition alone, but we're 'hopeful' that we're moving in the right direction. Sorry that it's not a quick turnaround, but that's the depth of woe this team is trying to recover from.

 

 

What's worse is that this latest rendition of the Jacksonville Rebuild was started with what might be one of the worst Draft Classes in the past few decades. If the cupboard is bare, that's one thing but when the grocery store is bare, then you're really in trouble.

Quote:well... it's good to 'vent' sometimes, I guess. The truth though is that putting a lot of faith in free agents is, at best, a gamble, and at worst, an outright waste of money. In our situation, the best choice is for us to 'stay the path' and build via the draft and only rely on f/a as a short term stop gap.

Our teams issues won't get fixed by this draft and f/a acquisition alone, but we're 'hopeful' that we're moving in the right direction. Sorry that it's not a quick turnaround, but that's the depth of woe this team is trying to recover from.

I'm not sure guys like Torrey Smith, DeMariyus Thomas, Jason Pierre Paul, given their ages, talent, and production, would represent "short term stop gap" players, (assuming for argument's sake these guys can hit the market) but I agree the team should not be overly dependent upon free agency.

Not so sure that FA signings have to be "Stop gap".

 

You can find young ascending players around the age of 25-26 to improve your team.

 

We hit on Mike Peterson in FA. Brian Williams was a good #2 corner for us as well as FS Deon Grant.

 

Guys i want to see up pick up in FA are in the 25-26yrs of age range so we can get a solid 5 years out of them. 5 productive years is not a "stop gap"

Quote:Not so sure that FA signings have to be "Stop gap".

 

You can find young ascending players around the age of 25-26 to improve your team.

 

We hit on Mike Peterson in FA. Brian Williams was a good #2 corner for us as well as FS Deon Grant.

 

Guys i want to see up pick up in FA are in the 25-26yrs of age range so we can get a solid 5 years out of them. 5 productive years is not a "stop gap"

Agreed completely, and you made the case better than I did.

Quote:Agreed completely, and you made the case better than I did.

I did not see your post until after i posted mine. Glad to see we are on the same page though  :yes:

 

With all this money that we have available, i would still like to spend it wisely on mid 20 year olds with high ceilings.

 

IMO i think that will be most effective.

Quote:I'm not sure guys like Torrey Smith, DeMariyus Thomas, Jason Pierre Paul, given their ages, talent, and production, would represent "short term stop gap" players, (assuming for argument's sake these guys can hit the market) but I agree the team should not be overly dependent upon free agency.

 

 

Quote:Not so sure that FA signings have to be "Stop gap".

 

You can find young ascending players around the age of 25-26 to improve your team.

 

We hit on Mike Peterson in FA. Brian Williams was a good #2 corner for us as well as FS Deon Grant.

 

Guys i want to see up pick up in FA are in the 25-26yrs of age range so we can get a solid 5 years out of them. 5 productive years is not a "stop gap"

 

While I agree with the premise that both of you are supporting, what do you make of signing players such as Chris Clemons and Red Bryant? While they were not the most productive players signed, I do feel like they contributed to the development of the Defensive Line as a unit.

 

Granted, I feel like they were probably outliers but there is something to be said for signing a Veteran Free Agent who can still produce but bring a sense of professionalism, work ethic, and "standard of performance" to a team.