Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:We ranked 18 in run defense with 2 pass rushers playing their first season. Atlanta is 17 and in the Super Bowl. 

What is your point? That is still a step back from where we were at points last year, and doesn't change the fact that Ngakoue individually sucks against the run. He also does not strike me as a very physical player. I like the tone Fowler sets more and he is clearly a better all around player, and will be better than Ngakoue as a pass rusher once he works on his technique because he is far more athletic and dynamic. Either way, 18 clearly means there is room for improvement, I'm not sure how you are helping your argument. The Falcons also play in a different conference and have Matt Ryan and Julio Jones, and the best 1-2 punch at RB in the league. Apples and oranges. Just because they made it there doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our own run defense, it's dumb logic.

Quote:Dave said he would have considered it, not absolutely have done it. He's just talking up a guy he drafted. They also said they would have drafted TJ Yeldon in the first round. So...

 

And guess what, he did not get drafted in the second round, he was drafted in the third. And guess what else, Caldwell is no longer calling the shots. Ngakoue is a designated pass rusher, nothing more nothing less. He should be coming off the bench. If Ngakoue is still starting for this team next year then they failed in the offseason. Dude is trash against the run and only decent as a pass rusher. It's like people are desperate for anything to hang their hat on and paint a rose colored picture in their head about some of these guys. People did the same thing with Bortles last year when he had a decent year and completely ignored the fact he still was a turnover machine and if not for high variance downfield plays would have been trash.

Telvin Smith was drafted rd 5. Linder was drafted rd 3. A-Rob was drafted at the bottom of rd 2. Allen Hurns wasn't drafted.

 

Who the hell cares where the player went? Players are found everywhere in the draft. We hit it with him. He has a season under his belt, where he was drafted means zilch now.

Quote:What is your point? That is still a step back from where we were at points last year, and doesn't change the fact that Ngakoue individually sucks against the run. He also does not strike me as a very physical player. I like the tone Fowler sets more and he is clearly a better all around player, and will be better than Ngakoue as a pass rusher once he works on his technique because he is far more athletic and dynamic. Either way, 18 clearly means there is room for improvement, I'm not sure how you are helping your argument. The Falcons also play in a different conference and have Matt Ryan and Julio Jones, and the best 1-2 punch at RB in the league. Apples and oranges. Just because they made it there doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our own run defense, it's dumb logic.

 

My point is our run defense wasn't losing us games. We get it. You want a big beefy d-line. You do need speed on the edge in a passing league. 

Quote:Ngakoue did not do fine in all phases. He sucks against the run, period. Go back and watch the tape. Fowler will be better than him, he has more natural talent. Ngakoue just has better technique than Fowler because that's how he had to win, Fowler has had more athleticism so he hasn't had to focus on his technique as much. Even if Fowler does not turn out to be better than Ngakoue as a pass rusher, Ngakoue still should not start. He is a designated pass rusher, not a 3 down guy. Ngakoue getting all those snaps is a big reason our run defense took a step back this year. Furthermore, he isn't even that special of a pass rusher. He is probably going to be a guy who will consistently get you 6-8 sacks per season and be a nice rotational pass rusher but we aren't talking about the next great NFL pass rusher here. Jonathan Allen has All-Pro, Aaron Donald, Ndamukong Suh, Michael Bennett potential, and will be a beast against both the run and pass. It's beyond asinine not to draft him because Ngakoue had 8 sacks this season.


You and a good bit of this fanbase are overrating Ngakoue and living in the moment. Dude is alright, you should not be building your team based around the fact you have him though, that is a mistake and anyone who actually watches the tape closely will tell you that.

So Yannick sucks against the run currently, and were assuming he can not and will not get better at that.


But fowler isnt good at rushing off the edge, a significantly harder thing to do. But were assuming he will get better at that because of his *natural talent* which im gonna assume equates to athleticis, despite not having the athletic measurables that regularly point to a good pass rusher. Im just confused on how we get to fowler becoming good at something with no correlating evidence but yannick doesnt get the same benefit?


Yannick played very well for a rookie pass rusher. You can disagree if you'd like. You can hop wayyyy up on that high horse of yours and tell me all about the tape, and the eye test and whatever else you think is gonna convince me you're opinion is more valid with. But Ill reiterate, Im not saying he has arrived, Im not saying hes guaranteed 20 sacks. Im saying that he should be given the opportunity to continue to earn his starting job by building on a promising rookie season. As of right now, I have no reason to assume he has reached his ceiling, how high that ceiling is i dont know. Im just of the opinion that yannick is better than you believe he is, and that he should earn a starting spot opposite Jonathan allen or JPP while we make use of the others assets at other positions, and supplement them both with more pass rushers whether that be in FA or the 2nd or later rounds of the draft given the class of pass rushers this year.

Quote:Chances are you are going to be disappointed next season then. If this regime is serious about Bortles then they will likely be taking Fournette and suring up the o-line this year. Right now he's our best edge rusher so get ready for more Ngakoue. 

I don't care if we take Fournette so no  I will not be. But if you think Ngakoue starting next year is a good thing and we shouldn't upgrade over him "just because" then you are fooling yourself. We went 3-13, everything should be subject to an upgrade. Just because he was a rookie does not exempt him from this, especially when he wasn't even as good as you all are making out. 

 

Quote:Dude, you are the one that needs to go back and watch the tape. Ngakoue isn't very good against the run, but he doesn't suck...

 

Ngakoue was tremendous for a rookie as far as pass rushing goes. He has all the makings of a consistent double digit (albeit low double digit most likely) sack guy in this league. That isn't "off the bench" material.

 

I like Fowler a lot, but there is no way you can sit here with a straight face and think as a pass rusher Fowler will be anywhere near Ngakoue as a consistent threat. Ngakoue was consistently beating high end LT's like Lewan, Cordy Glenn, Castanzo, etc. Fowler on the other hand did have his moments but they were few and far between (like most rookie edge rushers who comes into the league are). 

 

We hit it big with Ngakoue, period. You saying people are overrating him, well you are severely underrating him.

He does suck against the run. He's lucky this defense is built to take pressure off of the weakside rusher or he would have gotten exposed even more. He gets barely any push and was regularly getting eaten on run downs. Considering I have gamepass and was just watching him get destroyed multiple times in multiple games I'm pretty confident I have went and watched the tape. I can literally count on one finger how many times a made a good  play against the run.

 

He does not have the making of a consistent double digit sacker, especially considering he shouldn't even be starting all 3 downs. As I said, he is a designated pass rusher. He has good bend and and speed for the position, but he is not that strong or athletic. He is a good technician. He is a SLIGHTLY above average pass rusher in the league, that's it. That is not the type of guy who should be starting for your team. He is so overrated by this fanbase just because he was freaking decent. Take off the teal glasses people.

 

And yes I can say that, because I actually watch tape and traits like you are supposed to and not just take superficial crap at face value. Fowler is bigger, faster, more athletic, better against the run, a harder hitter, better tone setter,  better edge setter, more dynamic, and has all the traits Ngakoue has as a pass rusher. The ONLY thing Ngakoue is better at than Fowler is his technique as a pass rusher, plain and simple. If Fowler improves his technique this offseason and develops NFL moves then he has the potential to be one of the best edge rushers in the league, in the same class as Olivier Vernon, Chandler Jones, JPP; just a tier below guys like Von Miller and Khalil Mack. Ngakoue will never be that, and will always be just a slightly above average player. A nice piece to have off the bench? Yes. As a starter? NO, it means your DL is NOT good enough. Will Fowler ever be able to improve his technique? Who knows, but I would put my money on the answer being yes and not to get caught up in this year because he was essentially a rookie. Everyone thought Vic Beasley was a bust last year too even though we know pass rusher struggle in their rookie years.

 

Also, Ngakoue was not "consistently" beating those guys. He had a few good rushes on them, please do not pretend like he was anything close to dominant. It's a reason our pass rush was STILL lethargic this year and we STILL ranked near the bottom in the league in pressures, and that's because Ngakoue, not just Fowler, was not getting consistent pressure like you're all pretending.

Quote:I don't care if we take Fournette so no  I will not be. But if you think Ngakoue starting next year is a good thing and we shouldn't upgrade over him "just because" then you are fooling yourself. We went 3-13, everything should be subject to an upgrade. Just because he was a rookie does not exempt him from this, especially when he wasn't even as good as you all are making out. 

 

He does suck against the run. He's lucky this defense is built to take pressure off of the weakside rusher or he would have gotten exposed even more. He gets barely any push and was regularly getting eaten on run downs. Considering I have gamepass and was just watching him get destroyed multiple times in multiple games I'm pretty confident I have went and watched the tape. I can literally count on one finger how many times a made a good  play against the run.

 

He does not have the making of a consistent double digit sacker, especially considering he shouldn't even be starting all 3 downs. As I said, he is a designated pass rusher. He has good bend and and speed for the position, but he is not that strong or athletic. He is a good technician. He is a SLIGHTLY above average pass rusher in the league, that's it. That is not the type of guy who should be starting for your team. He is so overrated by this fanbase just because he was freaking decent. Take off the teal glasses people.

 

And yes I can say that, because I actually watch tape and traits like you are supposed to and not just take superficial crap at face value. Fowler is bigger, faster, more athletic, better against the run, a harder hitter, better tone setter,  better edge setter, more dynamic, and has all the traits Ngakoue has as a pass rusher. The ONLY thing Ngakoue is better at than Fowler is his technique as a pass rusher, plain and simple. If Fowler improves his technique this offseason and develops NFL moves then he has the potential to be one of the best edge rushers in the league, in the same class as Olivier Vernon, Chandler Jones, JPP; just a tier below guys like Von Miller and Khalil Mack. Ngakoue will never be that, and will always be just a slightly above average player. A nice piece to have off the bench? Yes. As a starter? NO, it means your DL is NOT good enough. Will Fowler ever be able to improve his technique? Who knows, but I would put my money on the answer being yes and not to get caught up in this year because he was essentially a rookie. Everyone thought Vic Beasley was a bust last year too even though we know pass rusher struggle in their rookie years.

 

Also, Ngakoue was not "consistently" beating those guys. He had a few good rushes on them, please do not pretend like he was anything close to dominant. It's a reason our pass rush was STILL lethargic this year and we STILL ranked near the bottom in the league in pressures, and that's because Ngakoue, not just Fowler, was not getting consistent pressure like you're all pretending.

I think you just seem to have a very odd vendetta against him and go into games thinking one way and try your darndest to continue to feel that way based on what you just said.

 

Take off my teal glasses? Look at what your saying about Fowler...like good god. You'd think he'd just had the season Ngakoue had based on your posts.

 

Edit: Missed your last little bit at the end saying how he wasn't beating them on a pretty damn solid basis. Either you don't know what a good rush is or you have no idea what you're watching. He definitely was.

This is getting embarrassing 

Quote:This is getting embarrassing 

It's pretty obvious that he either is trolling hardcore right now or has no idea what a good pass rush looks like. Ngakoue most definitely had a very large chunk of games where he was abusing the LT on a fairly consistent basis WHILE getting held. Something Fowler didn't do in a single game this season against RT's.

 

Like good lord, this is getting to be ridiculous. Should just bow out while I can, feel like I'm getting dumber just reading this...and I love Fowler as far as his future goes. He's taking this to a whole different level.

Quote:It's pretty obvious that he either is trolling hardcore right now or has no idea what a good pass rush looks like. Ngakoue most definitely had a very large chunk of games where he was abusing the LT on a fairly consistent basis WHILE getting held.

 

No he sucks. He is in his early 20's and will never get any better. Might as well retire tbh 

Fowler, the "physical specimen" that isn't even regarded as a force player...

Quote:No he sucks. He is in his early 20's and will never get any better. Might as well retire tbh 

That's the thing, Ngakoue was SOOO much better as a pass rusher than Fowler. Yet Fowler will improve his pass rush to be better, and Ngakoue is just going to stay slightly below average against the run his entire career...even though he was MUCH improved compared to where he was in college as Wash, Caldwell, etc. have stated.

Quote:Fowler, the "physical specimen" that isn't even regarded as a force player...

Because he isnt a super dynamic athlete. He ran a good 40 time.

Quote:So Yannick sucks against the run currently, and were assuming he can not and will not get better at that.


But fowler isnt good at rushing off the edge, a significantly harder thing to do. But were assuming he will get better at that because of his *natural talent* which im gonna assume equates to athleticis, despite not having the athletic measurables that regularly point to a good pass rusher. Im just confused on how we get to fowler becoming good at something with no correlating evidence but yannick doesnt get the same benefit?


Yannick played very well for a rookie pass rusher. You can disagree if you'd like. You can hop wayyyy up on that high horse of yours and tell me all about the tape, and the eye test and whatever else you think is gonna convince me you're opinion is more valid with. But Ill reiterate, Im not saying he has arrived, Im not saying hes guaranteed 20 sacks. Im saying that he should be given the opportunity to continue to earn his starting job by building on a promising rookie season. As of right now, I have no reason to assume he has reached his ceiling, how high that ceiling is i dont know. Im just of the opinion that yannick is better than you believe he is, and that he should earn a starting spot opposite Jonathan allen or JPP while we make use of the others assets at other positions, and supplement them both with more pass rushers whether that be in FA or the 2nd or later rounds of the draft given the class of pass rushers this year.

He didn't show anything to suggest he can get better at it and his profile suggests he won't. He is woefully undersized for a real defensive end at 6'2'' 246lbs. That is why he was a third round pick in the first place, the guy is the textbook definition of a designated pass rusher. The actual prototypical size of 4-3 DEs is 6'5'' 270lbs. Anything below 6'3'' 260lbs and you're asking for trouble as a traditional 4-3 end. He also has short arms, which as a pass rusher doesn't matter as much but against the run means he gets engulfed and can't disengage from lineman. 

 

OTOH, Fowler has the profile to improve as a pass rusher while also being good against the run. His arms are 34 inches long which means he has no trouble disengaging, and while they made him lose weight he is still bigger than Ngakoue and can bulk up to 260lbs easily. He also has a better profile as a pass rusher. And please lets not start on that BS "athletic measureable that equate to pass rushing". On tape Fowler has shown everything you want to see from a pass rusher, he has just yet to put it all together. He shows the ability to use his hands and feet at the same time, good hand usage, great first step, smooth change of direction, bend, suddenness, power, everything. The problem with Fowler, again, is that his technique is horrible and because Florida never reigned him in he wasn't disciplined as a pass rusher. It's two completely different cases between him and Ngakoue. One has the profile of a guy who can be elite, one doesn't, plain and simple. Which is why one was drafted 3rd overall and one was a third round pick. There was a reason for that.

 

I didn't say Ngakoue played poorly, he played well within the context of what was expected from him. But if you look around the league and take him out of the vaccum of what is expected from a third round rookie, then he was NOT all that great, he was average AT BEST when taking into account all phases of the game, and a slightly above average pass rusher. He won't get much better than that, so to say we should role into next season with him the starter just because he has 8 sacks this season is poor judgement.

 

He will get a chance to compete for a starting job, he just won't win, and the fact you don't want both Allen and JPP shows you don't think he could beat them out. This in itself is a good thing and my whole point. Ngakoue should be coming off the bench, and we should acquire players that will push him down the depth chart. That is the sign of a team getting better. We should not shy away from bringing in both Allen and JPP just so Ngakoue can start, that is dumb logic. If Allen is there when we pick and he is the highest rated prospect on our board then we should take him. If JPP is our highest rated FA or one of them then we should sign him. There is nothing wrong with adding players who will make the guys who were big contributors to us last year sit. Ngakoue is not as good of a player as JPP, and he is not as good as what Jonathan Allen probably will be. So if he can't beat them out then that shows you we just got better.

 

Quote:Telvin Smith was drafted rd 5. Linder was drafted rd 3. A-Rob was drafted at the bottom of rd 2. Allen Hurns wasn't drafted.

 

Who the hell cares where the player went? Players are found everywhere in the draft. We hit it with him. He has a season under his belt, where he was drafted means zilch now.

I'm not the one who brought up where they went so talk to the other guy dude.

 

That's exactly my point, doesn't matter where they went, and it doesn't matter what their role on the team was this year either. They should be evaluated based on what gives us the best opportunity to put the best product on the field and the fact of the matter is Ngakoue is infinitely upgradeable as a starter.

 

Quote:My point is our run defense wasn't losing us games. We get it. You want a big beefy d-line. You do need speed on the edge in a passing league. 

And we would have speed on the edge with Fowler and Ngakoue coming off the bench. I don't understand your point. How is it a bad thing to have a player who is better against the run on the field on run downs?? Are you goobers not getting the fact that Ngakoue would still be on the field on the plays where he's actually good at?? Why would you want a guy who sucks against the run on the field over a guy who is awesome against it? Some of you are so blinded by confirmation bias and conventional fanboyism that you can't see Ngakoue is not the freaking second coming, and most certainly not above getting a BETTER player over.

Its not about him not beating them out. Its about not spending all of our resources to allocate a player to the bench when we can use another million combinations of those resources to do the same thing while still having yannick or fowler start and gettijg blue chip players at other positions. You literally just said you believe Fowler can be a tier below von miller while already being good against the run. So why in the world would you put him on the bench. Yeah yeah rotation! the giants had endless pass rushers! Id like to be spared the cliches and jargon, thats just a mismanagement of our resources. But were going to keep disagreeing on Yannick and Fowler so this is kind of a waste anyways.

I laugh a little when people on here tell us to "watch the tape" like we're sitting around all day watching game film from the last 3-13 season. 

 

We watched the games too but we don't call it "watching the tape." 

Quote:I laugh a little when people on here tell us to "watch the tape" like we're sitting around all day watching game film from the last 3-13 season. 

 

We watched the games too but we don't call it "watching the tape." 

Just to make himself look more knowledgeable/whatever he says is gospel about the subject.

Quote:I think you just seem to have a very odd vendetta against him and go into games thinking one way and try your darndest to continue to feel that way based on what you just said.

 

Take off my teal glasses? Look at what your saying about Fowler...like good god. You'd think he'd just had the season Ngakoue had based on your posts.

 

Edit: Missed your last little bit at the end saying how he wasn't beating them on a pretty damn solid basis. Either you don't know what a good rush is or you have no idea what you're watching. He definitely was.

How do I have a vendetta against him? All I'm doing is stating my opinion and calling a spade. Did I even begin the thread with  "Ngakoue sucks and he shoudl sit". No, I didn't. Someone brought up Ngakoue and I said he is not the type of guy you pass over adding Jonathan Allen for. Apparently this means I have a vendetta. All I'm stating is facts. He sucked against the run, and was slightly above average as a pass rusher, creating a player that league average at best and is best suited as a designated pass rusher off the bench which is what he would be on any team with an actually good starting DL. But, apparently just having an honest evaluation not influenced by teal bias means I have a vendetta against him. No, I'm just not about to agree with the echo chamber that Ngakoue was awesome at everything and should start next season. Would I ball my eyes out if Ngakoue is the starter? No, but I will definitely take it as a sign that the DL will not be any better next year if he is, which means it will still be near the bottom of the league.

 

And no he wasn't. Again, go back and actually watch. Just because he had a few decent rushes does not mean he was getting pressure on a consistent basis. If he was we would not be at the bottom of the league in pressures. Like, it's not even hard to figure out. All you have to do is be honest with yourself and not hold onto the need to have a player be better than he is. This is exactly the same mentality that fooled everyone into thinking Bortles was ascending last year when there were clear signs that he still sucked, or at least wasn't as good as the echo chamber was making him out to be.

 

Quote:This is getting embarrassing 

How? From what I can tell I am the only one here with any kind of objectivity and the fact it takes 3 of you shows this.

 

Quote:It's pretty obvious that he either is trolling hardcore right now or has no idea what a good pass rush looks like. Ngakoue most definitely had a very large chunk of games where he was abusing the LT on a fairly consistent basis WHILE getting held. Something Fowler didn't do in a single game this season against RT's.

 

Like good lord, this is getting to be ridiculous. Should just bow out while I can, feel like I'm getting dumber just reading this...and I love Fowler as far as his future goes. He's taking this to a whole different level.

Yeah, having a different opinion from the echo chamber means I'm trolling. And please point out these "large chunk(s) of games" where he abused the LT. His best game was against Baltimore, sure. But at best he had 3 games where he was putting on consistent pressure, out of a 16 game season. Again, he was decent, not great or even necessarily "good" by league standards. And I never said Fowler was a good pass rusher this year so not sure what your point in bringing that up is.

 

Bow out, you clearly have nothing of substance to add other than conventional Jaguar fanboy wisdom.

 

Quote:No he sucks. He is in his early 20's and will never get any better. Might as well retire tbh 

Thanks for strawmanning what I said.

 

Quote:Fowler, the "physical specimen" that isn't even regarded as a force player...

And here is what you people actually have against Fowler. lol. Guess what, Chandler Jones, Olivier Vernon, Joey Bosa, Brandon Graham, Melvin Ingram, Whitney Mercilus, James Harrison, Cameron Jordan, Jadeveon Clowney Michael Bennett...i.e. almost every single one of the top edge rushers this year outside of Von Miller, Vic Beasley, JPP, and Khalil Mack were NOT force players. You do NOT have to be a force player to be a good pass rusher and I wish this line of thought would die already. In the first place, FP is a measure of who has the most likelihood to get a bunch of sacks basically, not who will be the best all around players. Ngakoue also was not a force player and you people love him. FP should not in anyway be used as an indication of whether a first round player will succeed, at best it is a sack predictor, not an actual predictor of how effective a guy will be at putting pressure on QBs. And Fowler is similar to 3 of those guys listed in terms of how he tested athletically (Vernon, Jones, Mercilus) and as a player is almost a direct copy of Mercilus.

 

It's amazing how you people sit here and bash KYJaggy and then turn around and use the exact same logic. LOL.

Quote:That's the thing, Ngakoue was SOOO much better as a pass rusher than Fowler. Yet Fowler will improve his pass rush to be better, and Ngakoue is just going to stay slightly below average against the run his entire career...even though he was MUCH improved compared to where he was in college as Wash, Caldwell, etc. have stated.

Caldwell, the same guy who just said we can win a championship with Blake Bortles. And I don't care what they say, that is typical talking up of players. I have my own two eyes and unlike all of you I actually go back watch the All-22 and I can see with my own two eyes than Ngakoue is NOT a starting 3 down DE. Do I want him to be? Yes. If I'm being honest with myself can I say he is. Absolutely not. And again, Fowler has the profile while Ngakoue doesn't. Like, why do you people even think Fowler was drafted 3rd overall? 

 

Quote:Because he isnt a super dynamic athlete. He ran a good 40 time.

Yes he is. Watch the tape instead of basing your entire opinion around the underwear olympics.

Quote:Caldwell, the same guy who just said we can win a championship with Blake Bortles. And I don't care what they say, that is typical talking up of players. I have my own two eyes and unlike all of you I actually go back watch the All-22 and I can see with my own two eyes than Ngakoue is NOT a starting 3 down DE. Do I want him to be? Yes. If I'm being honest with myself can I say he is. Absolutely not. And again, Fowler has the profile while Ngakoue doesn't. Like, why do you people even think Fowler was drafted 3rd overall?


Yes he is. Watch the tape instead of basing your entire opinion around the underwear olympics.

"why do you think he was drafted 3 overall"


who drafted dante fowler 3 overall


"caldwell the same guy who said we can win a championship with blake bortles"

Quote:How do I have a vendetta against him? All I'm doing is stating my opinion and calling a spade. Did I even begin the thread with "Ngakoue sucks and he shoudl sit". No, I didn't. Someone brought up Ngakoue and I said he is not the type of guy you pass over adding Jonathan Allen for. Apparently this means I have a vendetta. All I'm stating is facts. He sucked against the run, and was slightly above average as a pass rusher, creating a player that league average at best and is best suited as a designated pass rusher off the bench which is what he would be on any team with an actually good starting DL. But, apparently just having an honest evaluation not influenced by teal bias means I have a vendetta against him. No, I'm just not about to agree with the echo chamber that Ngakoue was awesome at everything and should start next season. Would I ball my eyes out if Ngakoue is the starter? No, but I will definitely take it as a sign that the DL will not be any better next year if he is, which means it will still be near the bottom of the league.


And no he wasn't. Again, go back and actually watch. Just because he had a few decent rushes does not mean he was getting pressure on a consistent basis. If he was we would not be at the bottom of the league in pressures. Like, it's not even hard to figure out. All you have to do is be honest with yourself and not hold onto the need to have a player be better than he is. This is exactly the same mentality that fooled everyone into thinking Bortles was ascending last year when there were clear signs that he still sucked, or at least wasn't as good as the echo chamber was making him out to be.


How? From what I can tell I am the only one here with any kind of objectivity and the fact it takes 3 of you shows this.


Yeah, having a different opinion from the echo chamber means I'm trolling. And please point out these "large chunk(s) of games" where he abused the LT. His best game was against Baltimore, sure. But at best he had 3 games where he was putting on consistent pressure, out of a 16 game season. Again, he was decent, not great or even necessarily "good" by league standards. And I never said Fowler was a good pass rusher this year so not sure what your point in bringing that up is.


Bow out, you clearly have nothing of substance to add other than conventional Jaguar fanboy wisdom.


Thanks for strawmanning what I said.


And here is what you people actually have against Fowler. lol. Guess what, Chandler Jones, Olivier Vernon, Joey Bosa, Brandon Graham, Melvin Ingram, Whitney Mercilus, James Harrison, Cameron Jordan, Jadeveon Clowney Michael Bennett...i.e. almost every single one of the top edge rushers this year outside of Von Miller, Vic Beasley, JPP, and Khalil Mack were NOT force players. You do NOT have to be a force player to be a good pass rusher and I wish this line of thought would die already. In the first place, FP is a measure of who has the most likelihood to get a bunch of sacks basically, not who will be the best all around players. Ngakoue also was not a force player and you people love him. FP should not in anyway be used as an indication of whether a first round player will succeed, at best it is a sack predictor, not an actual predictor of how effective a guy will be at putting pressure on QBs. And Fowler is similar to 3 of those guys listed in terms of how he tested athletically (Vernon, Jones, Mercilus) and as a player is almost a direct copy of Mercilus.


It's amazing how you people sit here and bash KYJaggy and then turn around and use the exact same logic. LOL.

<a class="bbc_url" href='http://playmakermentality.com/what-is-a-force-player'>http://playmakermentality.com/what-is-a-force-player</a>




Cameron Jordan, Brandon Graham, and Melvin Ingram are all force players. JPP is a mid force player, and only clowney and mercilus arent. Bosa had a good 3 cone fwiw.