Quote:We went deep like 5 times all year
No, don't fall for it. It's the classic straw-man/reductio-ad-absurdum argument used to taunt those that were right in this particular discussion in the Jungle.
Nobody said what was implied in the quote you referenced. But it's easier to attack a non-arguement then to actually delve into the intricacies for why Fish and the offense he created failed.
Quote:No, don't fall for it. It's the classic straw-man/reductio-ad-absurdum argument used to taunt those that were right in this particular discussion in the Jungle.
Nobody said what was implied in the quote you referenced. But it's easier to attack a non-arguement then to actually delve into the intricacies for why Fish and the offense he created failed.
Very well put
Quote:Very well put
I'm not the type of guy to "spike the football", but man this OC move really exemplifies the difference between those that just tow the status quo and the "mouse breeders" that are also die-hard fans but realize where the shortcomings for this team are/were.
It's true, that the O-line is bad, probably the worst in the NFL this season. But that doesn't give a pass for the entire offense and how it was run. It in fact can be both. And it's nice to see the front office and Bradley realized it too.
We need to upgrade the O-line. That's a simple fact. The other fact is that the OC needed to also be upgraded.
Both will happen.
The OL will get more attention this offseason. It may not need a huge influx of players, but there's never anything wrong with stockpiling quality OL either. Better to overreact than not react, IMO.
Quote:WHY DIDN'T THEY OPEN UP THE OFFENSE AND THROW IT DOWN FIELD MORE!?
WE WANT 7 STEP DROPS!!!
Maximum protection would allow you to do so. You can't do that all the time but you got to try it sometimes to spread the defense out. We all knew what happened to the Jags offense when no one respected the passing game.
Thanks for the insight and perspective. I don't think anyone on here New the online was bad and consisted of primarily rookies. When should we expect the poll you'll start next?
Couldn't throw it deep because defenses stacked the box and brought it all game every game. They knew the line couldn't protect him. Because the line couldn't stop the pressure, defenses didn't have to worry about the 15+ yard passes and so they stacked the box. Unless the line gets substantially better they are going to have to roll him out ALOT if they want to throw the ball down the field.
And to think some people around here want to keep the same OL instead of picking up some Pro Bowl linemen in Free Agency. SMH.
Regards...................the Chiefjag
If you add Bortles 55 to Henne's 16 our QB would be third lol.
Quote:If you add Bortles 55 to Henne's 16 our QB would be third lol.
And Henne only played 2 1/2 games. Omg...He was on pace for 100 in 16 games
Quote:Something occurred to me the other day. With Fisch getting a lot of the blame for the offensive line woes, I think we tend to underestimate the impact of George Yarno's absence. Especially in a zone blocking (i.e. complex) scheme. I'm not trying to make excuses for those guys but you would think having your "second string" coach at that position (in addition to all the youth) would have at least some negative impact. How much so, who knows?
Coach Yarno will be back w/the team in February. He was truly missed to say the least...
NH3...
Not trying to say Yarno is not very good because I honestly don't know. I do wonder if he could be upgraded?
Is there a zone blocking version of Jerry Sullivan out there?
It is my understanding that it is the OCs call about keeping the assistance under him. Is that correct?
Just looking at the NFL coaching resume for Yarno outside of Jacksonville and I don't see a team that had a dominant O-Line.
2008 Tampa Bay - Team Finished 9/7 - Missed Playoffs
2009 Detroit - Team Finished 2/14 - Missed Playoffs
2010 Detroit - Team Finished 6/10 - Missed Playoffs
2011 Detroit - Team Finished 10/6 - Playoffs - Wildcard Game Loss
2012 Detroit - Team Finished 4/12 - Missed Playoffs
Maybe I am missing the big picture, I hope I am.
I understand looking at how the team finished does not give an complete picture of how the O-Line Coach performed. I also see the clear progression of Detroit from 2009-2011.
The thing is, I just don't remember any of these teams having a good/great O-Line.
Looking back on the year of coach speak... The clues for getting rid of the coordinator were stated.
Example:
The discussion about finding plays that are go to plays that can be executed and establish a base. Did we do that?
To me the big red flag was having a bye week to prepare for a division opponent and still coming out and laying an egg.
"That’s because I have seen enough to believe that the offensive line was not “71 sacks bad...
uh... how many times was BB2 sacked this season? 71 right? Then JO did see that this line is in fact '71 sacks bad'.
Quote:2008 Tampa Bay - Team Finished 9/7 - Missed Playoffs
2009 Detroit - Team Finished 2/14 - Missed Playoffs
2010 Detroit - Team Finished 6/10 - Missed Playoffs
2011 Detroit - Team Finished 10/6 - Playoffs - Wildcard Game Loss
2012 Detroit - Team Finished 4/12 - Missed Playoffs
I don't know if he's a very good OL coach, either.
The Bucs improved by 4 sacks allowed before Yarno versus after his arrival.
The Lions were 52 sacks allowed in 2008 (before Yarno)--2nd worst in the league. They were 43 in 2009, 27 in 2010, 36 in 2011, and 29 in 2012. That's a significant improvement in performance. There were no Pro-Bowlers on his offensive lines. The only change on the depth chart for the offensive line was Daniel Loper (LG) to Rob Sims (LG).
Interpret those stats how you want, but with the depth chart being pretty much the same, I'd only consider that a huge plus for Yarno.
At the least, we need to have Yarno back. Butkus didn't get it, and I suspect the lack of coaching (especially with how young our OL was) was a real problem. Difficulty is firing Yarno what with the cancer and all. Perhaps the new OC will bring his own guy and the Jags can give Yarno an excellent severance package.
Somehow, many of y'all have decided that a sack equals a failure on the OL. That is pretty far from the truth. Yes, some sacks are caused by failures of the offensive linemen. But some are caused by the failure of the RB to pick up...the guy he was supposed to pick up. And some are caused by the QB holding on to the ball too long...or stepping into the rusher instead of stepping in the right direction.
Having spent a lot of time in a college room watching film on the offensive line, one finds that the truth is that unless you know the blocking scheme you can't really assign blame. The folks at PFF make some assumptions which seem pretty fair, but even they really don't know from whence the failure came. But, for instance, if the OL knows that Bortles is gonna take a three step drop and fire a...say...short crossing pattern...then the OL cut their assignments. However, if Bortles pumps the short cross and decides to go elsewhere and pulls the ball down...the guy I cut gets up and has a shot at him. On Bortles, and yay him for wanting to make something out of nothing. But we (on a message board) say...durn OL...they let our guy get butchered. Not the case.
Given attention spans here I'll quit but re-emphasize...it isn't ALL on the OL.
Jim
Quote:I don't know if he's a very good OL coach, either.
The Bucs improved by 4 sacks allowed before Yarno versus after his arrival.
The Lions were 52 sacks allowed in 2008 (before Yarno)--2nd worst in the league. They were 43 in 2009, 27 in 2010, 36 in 2011, and 29 in 2012. That's a significant improvement in performance. There were no Pro-Bowlers on his offensive lines. The only change on the depth chart for the offensive line was Daniel Loper (LG) to Rob Sims (LG).
Interpret those stats how you want, but with the depth chart being pretty much the same, I'd only consider that a huge plus for Yarno.
Thank you for adding perspective. This seems a lot more accurate and a lot better than I thought.
Quote:At the least, we need to have Yarno back. Butkus didn't get it, and I suspect the lack of coaching (especially with how young our OL was) was a real problem. Difficulty is firing Yarno what with the cancer and all. Perhaps the new OC will bring his own guy and the Jags can give Yarno an excellent severance package.
Somehow, many of y'all have decided that a sack equals a failure on the OL. That is pretty far from the truth. Yes, some sacks are caused by failures of the offensive linemen. But some are caused by the failure of the RB to pick up...the guy he was supposed to pick up. And some are caused by the QB holding on to the ball too long...or stepping into the rusher instead of stepping in the right direction.
Having spent a lot of time in a college room watching film on the offensive line, one finds that the truth is that unless you know the blocking scheme you can't really assign blame. The folks at PFF make some assumptions which seem pretty fair, but even they really don't know from whence the failure came. But, for instance, if the OL knows that Bortles is gonna take a three step drop and fire a...say...short crossing pattern...then the OL cut their assignments. However, if Bortles pumps the short cross and decides to go elsewhere and pulls the ball down...the guy I cut gets up and has a shot at him. On Bortles, and yay him for wanting to make something out of nothing. But we (on a message board) say...durn OL...they let our guy get butchered. Not the case.
Given attention spans here I'll quit but re-emphasize...it isn't ALL on the OL.
Jim
I honestly don't see a lot if people blaming everything on the o line. Obviously Fisch was part of it since he got fired. Bortles obviously wasn't perfect and the receivers were inconsistent. Either way, 71 sacks isn't good and it's indicative of a poor o line.
Quote:I honestly don't see a lot if people blaming everything on the o line. Obviously Fisch was part of it since he got fired. Bortles obviously wasn't perfect and the receivers were inconsistent. Either way, 71 sacks isn't good and it's indicative of a poor o line.
Except for this thread was titled: "I want to put into perspective how bad this O line was with this alarming stat..." And then went on to point out that the sacks are alarming. They are...but it ain't all on the Oline. And yes, 71 sacks aren't good...and part of the reason is on the Oline. But if Blake were responsible for...say...10 sacks, and the various RB's were responsible for...say...15 sacks...and the receivers not getting open were responsible for...say...another 15 sacks...then we have a pretty reasonable 30 or so sacks on the OLine...and suddenly you are in top 10 (good top 10) area. Of course, other teams have the same confounding events, but most of them (in the top 10) don't have rookie QB's, pretty much all rookie WR, at least one RB who was a QB in college 2 years ago and played about 10 snaps last year...see my point?