Quote:Same thing the Jews where told by Nazis (NOT CALLING POLICE NAZIS) just saying at some point the laws become so ridiculous non-compliance is the only option.
I get it the man was resisting and on some level he shares some of the fault. To me the larger fault lies in the reason why the officer and him where even in that situation. The problem once again is government.
I don't disagree that the law is stupid, but you elect liberals you get liberal laws. Non-compliance in THIS case is an unreasonable response and you're creating a false equivalence. The guy had been arrested 8 times previously for the same offense and wasn't injured any other time. His actions in response to the officers THIS time created an entirely different outcome.
Quote:Welp, looks like the whole race thing is kaput. I wonder why the MSM didn't report this very interesting detail? I wonder, wonder, wonder what interest is served by de-escalating potential racial friction in this case?
<a class="bbc_url" href='http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/12/breaking-eric-garner-arrest-death-supervised-by-black-female-police-sergeant/'>http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/12/breaking-eric-garner-arrest-death-supervised-by-black-female-police-sergeant/</a>
I bet that makes Grand Wizard Sharpton kick, scream and cry..
Quote:I bet that makes Grand Wizard Sharpton kick, scream and cry..
Nah, it just opens up the "Blue Wall of Silence" offense. After all, the cops are all lying about what happened, the black female sarge wasn't even there really.
Quote:Nah, it just opens up the "Blue Wall of Silence" offense. After all, the cops are all lying about what happened, the black female sarge wasn't even there really.
YAY a black officer was there nothing to see here folks move along!
There is race baiting on both sides, to act like only the left does is plain silly and borderline delusional.
Quote:YAY a black officer Sergeant was IN CHARGE there nothing to see here folks move along!
There is race baiting on both sides, to act like only the left does is plain silly and borderline delusional.
Let's keep it factual. At no time did the black female Sergeant instruct the officers to stop, clearly she approved of the tactics in use.
Quote:Let's keep it factual. At no time did the black female Sergeant instruct the officers to stop, clearly she approved of the tactics in use.
Sergeant's are not officers?
Yes, fact is a homicide was committed by police and not a thing is going to happen. People should be outraged.
Aside from that, my point was race bating happens on both sides in huge ways. I could have worded my post in a different way. I was basically trying to say I didn't care if a black officer was there nobody else should either.
If people would simply listen to the cops and let lawyers figure out the rest so much of this could be avoided. Resisting arrest or not listening to cops is never going to end well. Period.
My ex-husband was MP and he always said, just listen to the police and follow their instructions or things can get ugly. Why stack charges against you just to prove a point?
Quote:If people would simply listen to the cops and let lawyers figure out the rest so much of this could be avoided. Resisting arrest or not listening to cops is never going to end well. Period.
My ex-husband was MP and he always said, just listen to the police and follow their instructions or things can get ugly. Why stack charges against you just to prove a point?
That's how we've ended up with illegal checkpoints, polices tactics such as stop and frisk, illegal search and seizures and so much more. I'm sorry but the simple mentality of, " the law is always right, do what it says and if its wrong we'll fix it later ", has lead us down a road of damn near a total police state.
I'm not arguing this man in this case was justified for resisting arrest. I am arguing that the notion of just do what the police say is wrong and extremely dangerous.
The police are not above they law, they are in charge of enforcing the law. The police do not create the law, it is our individual responsibility to know the law and stand up for ourselves when we are given unlawful orders. Sadly this man was being given a lawful order, now we can debate if the law is reasonable/constitutional and so on, but he was breaking a law so I agree he should have listened to the officer and taken his lumps. That however is in no way a justifiable means the officers (all of them) used in apprehending the man, when enforcing the law the police are responsible to use reason, was this violation even worth an arrest? You don't even get arrested for having pot in New York anymore, give the man a citation and move on.
All that said, I can't disagree more with the people saying "just comply with the police". No sir, if they're wrong do not comply, maybe it means immediate harm or discomfort, but if everyone just comply's regardless of the order simply because a man in blue gave it to you, then you might as well accept the TSA at your local walmart and start leaving the blinds open for HS to peak in, and hell no more moaning about the NSA spying on you.
Quote:That's how we've ended up with illegal checkpoints, polices tactics such as stop and frisk, illegal search and seizures and so much more. I'm sorry but the simple mentality of, " the law is always right, do what it says and if its wrong we'll fix it later ", has lead us down a road of damn near a total police state.
I'm not arguing this man in this case was justified for resisting arrest. I am arguing that the notion of just do what the police say is wrong and extremely dangerous.
The police are not above they law, they are in charge of enforcing the law. The police do not create the law, it is our individual responsibility to know the law and stand up for ourselves when we are given unlawful orders. Sadly this man was being given a lawful order, now we can debate if the law is reasonable/constitutional and so on, but he was breaking a law so I agree he should have listened to the officer and taken his lumps. That however is in no way a justifiable means the officers (all of them) used in apprehending the man, when enforcing the law the police are responsible to use reason, was this violation even worth an arrest? You don't even get arrested for having pot in New York anymore, give the man a citation and move on.
All that said, I can't disagree more with the people saying "just comply with the police". No sir, if they're wrong do not comply, maybe it means immediate harm or discomfort, but if everyone just comply's regardless of the order simply because a man in blue gave it to you, then you might as well accept the TSA at your local walmart and start leaving the blinds open for HS to peak in, and hell no more moaning about the NSA spying on you.
The cops weren't wrong, once they told the guy he was going in he should've acquiesced. Instead he slapped at them while saying he wasn't going in, classic resisting. Because he resisted it opened up the potential for his death, something that is ALWAYS a potentiality when you put cops in the position of subduing you. NOT complying with the lawful orders of the police is both unlawful and more dangerous than compliance.
What you are describing are unlawful orders which have nothing to do with my position in this matter. And yes, the LAW is always right, because it's the LAW. If you don't like it then use the 4 Box method, but direct resistance to police doing their jobs by enforcing the written law is NOT the way to go about it in the vast majority of cases. They aren't rounding up people and shipping them to gulags, they're arresting people for violating the liberal's vice laws and then they get their day in court and the press. But you'll also never hear Rev Al and the gang mention that the instigating factor in this travesty is the real problem because they are on the side of the oppressors. They figuratively want their cake and to eat it too.
Personally I think the police should just kill all of us to keep us safe.
To sum up how I feel in one handy image:
![[Image: hqdefault.jpg]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/S-mnYLPxwtc/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote:Solution, don't arrest someone selling non-stamped smokes? Citations if you have to do something? Seriously the guy was selling cigarettes....
Are you OK with the police not enforcing laws, or just the ones YOU want enforced?
Garner was arrested more than 30 times since the 80s. The reason people get tickets instead of posting cash bonds is because the State / City is taking their word that they'll appear at their court date. What incentive do they have give a ticket to someone that was arrested as many times for the SAME offense? What reason do they have that he wont commit the same offense or even show up at all? None.
The Magistrate usually sets conditions on their release when they are bonded out. Considering his lengthy history, I'd be surprised if one of those conditions wasn't to avoid selling anymore loose cigarettes. What's even more likely, as trivial as it sounds, is that the Magistrate usually requires that they not violate any State / County / City laws... if that was a condition, then his bond would've been revoked, and they would another reason to take him in.
Quote:Sergeant's are not officers?
Yes, fact is a homicide was committed by police and not a thing is going to happen. People should be outraged.
Sergeants are considered supervisors and hold different responsibilities. The Supreme Court has ruled that they have different obligations, and she could have stopped the (lawful) arrest. I think that's where people are using her ethnicity as a factor when bringing up her proximity to the situation.
Quote:That's how we've ended up with illegal checkpoints, polices tactics such as stop and frisk, illegal search and seizures and so much more. I'm sorry but the simple mentality of, " the law is always right, do what it says and if its wrong we'll fix it later ", has lead us down a road of damn near a total police state.
I'm not arguing this man in this case was justified for resisting arrest. I am arguing that the notion of just do what the police say is wrong and extremely dangerous.
The police are not above they law, they are in charge of enforcing the law. The police do not create the law, it is our individual responsibility to know the law and stand up for ourselves when we are given unlawful orders. Sadly this man was being given a lawful order, now we can debate if the law is reasonable/constitutional and so on, but he was breaking a law so I agree he should have listened to the officer and taken his lumps. That however is in no way a justifiable means the officers (all of them) used in apprehending the man, when enforcing the law the police are responsible to use reason, was this violation even worth an arrest? You don't even get arrested for having pot in New York anymore, give the man a citation and move on.
All that said, I can't disagree more with the people saying "just comply with the police". No sir, if they're wrong do not comply, maybe it means immediate harm or discomfort, but if everyone just comply's regardless of the order simply because a man in blue gave it to you, then you might as well accept the TSA at your local walmart and start leaving the blinds open for HS to peak in, and hell no more moaning about the NSA spying on you.
There you go... that has nothing to do with this situation. Establishing an otherwise stupid law about loose cigarettes was not unconstitutional, and that falls on the politicians who have used this incident as a platform for their own agendas. If the officer didn't have reasonable suspicion or probable cause, then your post is completely applicable. It doesn't apply to this situation, however.
The US isn't a police state... not on the local levels at least. People like you always use the actions of the federal government, which operates with almost impunity, and applies it to local law enforcement. Have local guys violated the 4th Amendment? Sure. Have they violated their oath? Sure. With tens of millions of encounters a year, that's bound to happen but it doesn't happen a lot.
Quote:"Could" doesn't work, it's a hindsight judgement made without the accompanying stressors of the moment. And no, he doesn't lose his human rights, but he placed himself in the position of having to be restrained by the police by his actions. Actions have consequences, and the tendency of the media, the community and folks like you is to focus on the actions of the cops without due consideration to the events that created the circumstances. Did he get what he deserved? No, but the outcome was created in part by his willful choice to 1. disobey the law and 2. resist arrest.
The actions of the police is what led to his death. The medical examiner also made that conclusion as well.
This is more than just resisting arrest, this has to do with some police using excessive force which is the concern.
Google the lady in California who recently won a civil suit against the police for excessive force, the facts are there.
People should obey the officers no matter what then let the lawyers handle any improprieties.
Sincerely,
Sami Safir
Quote:If people would simply listen to the cops and let lawyers figure out the rest so much of this could be avoided. Resisting arrest or not listening to cops is never going to end well. Period.
My ex-husband was MP and he always said, just listen to the police and follow their instructions or things can get ugly. Why stack charges against you just to prove a point?
Lawyers figure it out? Really? That is a terrible option.
Quote:
All that said, I can't disagree more with the people saying "just comply with the police". No sir, if they're wrong do not comply, maybe it means immediate harm or discomfort, but if everyone just comply's regardless of the order simply because a man in blue gave it to you, then you might as well accept the TSA at your local walmart and start leaving the blinds open for HS to peak in, and hell no more moaning about the NSA spying on you.
Not sure I can agree with that. If individuals start resisting arrest because they think they should not be arrested, they wind up in a whole heap of trouble, and the situation can escalate way beyond what you might expect, with additional charges and physical injuries.
Besides, if we are all supposed to decide for ourselves whether we want to comply with the police, we are going down a slippery slope towards anarchy.
And besides #2, do you really think the police have time to argue with you and explain why they are asking/telling you to do something?
The best thing to do is go along with what the officer says, and call your lawyer when you get a chance, if you see a need to.
Quote:Not sure I can agree with that. If individuals start resisting arrest because they think they should not be arrested, they wind up in a whole heap of trouble, and the situation can escalate way beyond what you might expect, with additional charges and physical injuries.
Besides, if we are all supposed to decide for ourselves whether we want to comply with the police, we are going down a slippery slope towards anarchy.
And besides #2, do you really think the police have time to argue with you and explain why they are asking/telling you to do something?
The best thing to do is go along with what the officer says, and call your lawyer when you get a chance, if you see a need to.
Nothing is absolute and my response isn't meant to be taken as an absolute. There are levels of grievances and appropriate reactions. An officer gives you an unjust traffic citation for example, take the citation and way your chances in court and proceed if needed.
An officer unjustly enforces the polices such as NYC stop and frisk a direct violation of constitutional rights, I'd advocate non-compliance. Compliance for the sake of security is no different then sacrificing liberty for the sake of security, it's something I find extremely dangerous.
You can take it to the extremes to drive home the point, should Blacks in the south simply complied with unlawful and unconstitutional laws of oppression simply because they where told to? Had no one initiated non-compliance nothing would have changed, non-compliance is at the root of every social correction in our history. Non-compliance to unlawful, unconstitutional laws is as American as Baseball and Pie, it's who we are as a people. The day we start obeying every order simply because it is dictated on high from government is the day America dies.
it's up to each individual at what point non-compliance becomes necessary. However, making a blanket statement "comply and fight later" is wrong and something I thought needed to be addressed.
Know your rights, know the law, when given lawful orders obey them. When given unlawful orders weigh the sacrifice/reason and make a decision. I have my lines in the sand as does everyone.
Quote:Lawyers figure it out? Really? That is a terrible option.
I guess I don't see myself being in a position where I would have to worry about whether or not what a lawyer says is going to screw me over. Or a cop for that matter.
I suppose it's like Eric said, weigh your options at the time of the incident and go from there.