Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

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We also, as I said Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.

A good quarter of my mother's family are living in Canada as part of a large Jamaican diaspora that emigrated in the 70s.

 

A few of them are quite wealthy.  None of them line up at the border to get their chance to pay for the "best healthcare in the world".  They stay at home and outlive us.

 

Our system is never going to get better by perpetuating the myth that other countries do it worse, because, y'know, they're like socialist.  The ACA is nothing like what they have in Canada anyway.  The ACA is an insurance program, not a healthcare program.  Much of what we've discussed in this thread has at least been addressed by the ACA, if not in the most perfect of methods.  Our imperfect healthcare system had been ignored for at least 10 years before the ACA, and if tweaked, could improve the US system to really actually be the envy of the world.

 

Right now, it's not.

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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We also, as I said Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.

A good quarter of my mother's family are living in Canada as part of a large Jamaican diaspora that emigrated in the 70s.

 

A few of them are quite wealthy.  None of them line up at the border to get their chance to pay for the "best healthcare in the world".  They stay at home and outlive us.

 

Our system is never going to get better by perpetuating the myth that other countries do it worse, because, y'know, they're like socialist.  The ACA is nothing like what they have in Canada anyway.  The ACA is an insurance program, not a healthcare program.  Much of what we've discussed in this thread has at least been addressed by the ACA, if not in the most perfect of methods.  Our imperfect healthcare system had been ignored for at least 10 years before the ACA, and if tweaked, could improve the US system to really actually be the envy of the world.

 

Right now, it's not.

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I agree...What we need is a total revamp of the healthcare system into a logical, efficient, and reasonable cost system...How to do that, I don't know, but the present system has so many flaws that make the entire system unpractical and inefficient with soaring costs

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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I understand the contract thing...That's why they have the separate fee schedule for in network and out of network providers...In network providers generally agree to accept whatever payment the insurance company pays and not bill for the difference between what was billed and what was paid... Not quite, patient responsibility is a portion of the allowed amount. Insurance portion + Patient Portion = Allowed (Contracted) Amount. Depending on the type of plan you have you could have a small copay, a percentage co-insurance, or a deductible amount. As for out of network providers, they usually get less insurance money and more from the patient, it's how the insurance companies modify patient behavior to get the lowest cost for the service. The pain of the price point drives the patient to make good economic choices.


 

The copay for meds generally is when you fill a prescription not at the ER...There can be a copay sure...My plan says an ER visit is $100 copay

 

So you're upset about a charge that was covered by your managed care plan? Did you read your EOB to see what your insurance paid for your $26 pill? 


 

I maintain that the healthcare system grossly overcharges in certain areas and that it is unfair and unethical, and should be illegal...I know a large portion of the billing goes to cover overhead and malpractice insurance, but the insurance companies don't need any help in finding an excuse to raise premiums... Have you ever purchased an after market radio for an import car from the dealer? Your pay between 4 and 5 times what it would cost you at Best Buy. You know why? Because of where you received the service. It's the same for health care, buy in a facility you pay a facility rate. The CMS reimbursement schedule has a rate for both facility and non-facility making the price perfectly legal. The concept of DRGs and how hospitals are paid for the majority of their services is way to complex to get into here, but basically they are paid a flat rate based on the diagnosis of the patient, not al a cart by each service provided. As I said, the payment system is so ridiculously complex that it doesn't matter what they charge for a single drug, the insurance companies aren't losing any money on it.


 

And that is part of the problem...You can't receive medical services other than at medical facilities...There is no other option...Therefore, they can charge whatever they want because there is no "open market" for their services...

 

Sure you have options: you can visit a PCP in his office, you can go to a 24 hour Urgent Care Center, visit a free standing ER,  in Jacksonville we have 3 different healthcare systems offering almost 10 different hospital facilities. They don't all charge the same thing, you can shop around. Of course, if you expect your insurance company to pay for it then you have to deal with the Devil's terms
.

 

I don't know how to solve the problem completely, but putting a realistic cap on the amount they can charge for dispensing medications at the ER, would be somewhere to start... I know that MORE freedom in the market not LESS freedom is the way to fix the problem. We also, as I said before, need to remove the players who make their living between the patient and the physicians. Those players drive up cost and interfere in the doctor/patient relationship.


 

Overcharging and exorbitant fees drive up insurance premiums as well...I already agreed the people who use the ER facilities for general medical services is a problem...There is no open Market for medical services... 

 

You assume they are overcharging based on a retail experience. I'm telling you that the rates paid for the drug aren't the charge. Go find your EOB, if you can, and see what fraction of that charge your insurance company paid, I guarantee it isn't 25% of the $26.00.


 

 

It was mentioned earlier that some people use the ER as a primary doctor facility and I know that's a fact...It's also a fact that some people use it as an excuse to get out of work...They don't want to work on a certain day, so they go to the ER and get a note saying they were seen at that facility and they have an excused absence. There is a lot of abuse of the health care system, and I think a major overhaul is what needs to happen...

 

It seems Canada's free health care system works pretty well, (although it's not completely free) but I doubt we could ever make a system like that work here because they jerk faces in Washington would find a way to screw it up and make it a pain in the rear Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.


 

When I said free, I also said it's not totally free...I dated a girl from Canada once and they don't pay anything for general medical things...They have to pay a small copay for specialists and surgery that isn't life threatening or that would not interfere with their standard of living...cosmetic surgeries and thing that are not life threatening are all on the consumer to pay, but general wellness visits to the doctors require no pay by the consumer...

 

Of course it's paid by taxes...The girl I dated from Canada said that many Canadian Drs are coming into The U.S. to work because they are paid a flat fee from the Government and they make more money here, plus they can decide which patients they want to see and not see, rather than be assigned patients

 

I'm shocked to hear that highly educated business people don't want the government dictating the terms of their business! It's almost like Socialism creates a talent drain that leads to a lower quality product! I've never seen that anywhere except in the USSR, Cuba, Europe and anywhere else the government has usurped the market to control healthcare.


 

This is interesting: 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468


 

Even after all this time Canadians still don't use their system they way the government wants them to. The primary issue with US healthcare right now is that we have a severe shortage of practitioners. The data is discussed here: 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/20/doctors-shortage-least-most/1644837/
  As the article states, nearly 1/3 of current doctors are planning to retire, much of that is driven by the cost and complexity of compliance with the new healthcare laws. Even forcing them to switch to EMR drove many doctors over the age of 50 out of medicine into early retirement. More government involvement isn't going to fix this problem, it will exacerbate it.

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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We also, as I said Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.

A good quarter of my mother's family are living in Canada as part of a large Jamaican diaspora that emigrated in the 70s.

 

A few of them are quite wealthy.  None of them line up at the border to get their chance to pay for the "best healthcare in the world".  They stay at home and outlive us.

 

Our system is never going to get better by perpetuating the myth that other countries do it worse, because, y'know, they're like socialist.  The ACA is nothing like what they have in Canada anyway.  The ACA is an insurance program, not a healthcare program.  Much of what we've discussed in this thread has at least been addressed by the ACA, if not in the most perfect of methods.  Our imperfect healthcare system had been ignored for at least 10 years before the ACA, and if tweaked, could improve the US system to really actually be the envy of the world.

 

Right now, it's not.

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The ACA is garbage legislation and the 20% premium spikes coming for 2015 show why, nothing they did will bend the cost curve down. The ACA has one intention, make our system so bad that Universal coverage looks attractive by comparison. Free market advocates know that we are going the wrong way and it's only going to get worse as our government takes over more and more of the industry.

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350534" data-time="1414941996">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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I understand the contract thing...That's why they have the separate fee schedule for in network and out of network providers...In network providers generally agree to accept whatever payment the insurance company pays and not bill for the difference between what was billed and what was paid... Not quite, patient responsibility is a portion of the allowed amount. Insurance portion + Patient Portion = Allowed (Contracted) Amount. Depending on the type of plan you have you could have a small copay, a percentage co-insurance, or a deductible amount. As for out of network providers, they usually get less insurance money and more from the patient, it's how the insurance companies modify patient behavior to get the lowest cost for the service. The pain of the price point drives the patient to make good economic choices.


 

The copay for meds generally is when you fill a prescription not at the ER...There can be a copay sure...My plan says an ER visit is $100 copay

 

So you're upset about a charge that was covered by your managed care plan? Did you read your EOB to see what your insurance paid for your $26 pill? 


 

That's NO EXCUSE for gouging the consumer...In any other industry the government would be all over it screaming fraud by price gouging


 

I maintain that the healthcare system grossly overcharges in certain areas and that it is unfair and unethical, and should be illegal...I know a large portion of the billing goes to cover overhead and malpractice insurance, but the insurance companies don't need any help in finding an excuse to raise premiums... Have you ever purchased an after market radio for an import car from the dealer? Your pay between 4 and 5 times what it would cost you at Best Buy. You know why? Because of where you received the service. It's the same for health care, buy in a facility you pay a facility rate. The CMS reimbursement schedule has a rate for both facility and non-facility making the price perfectly legal. The concept of DRGs and how hospitals are paid for the majority of their services is way to complex to get into here, but basically they are paid a flat rate based on the diagnosis of the patient, not al a cart by each service provided. As I said, the payment system is so ridiculously complex that it doesn't matter what they charge for a single drug, the insurance companies aren't losing any money on it.


 

And that is part of the problem...You can't receive medical services other than at medical facilities...There is no other option...Therefore, they can charge whatever they want because there is no "open market" for their services...

 

Sure you have options: you can visit a PCP in his office, you can go to a 24 hour Urgent Care Center, visit a free standing ER,  in Jacksonville we have 3 different healthcare systems offering almost 10 different hospital facilities. They don't all charge the same thing, you can shop around. Of course, if you expect your insurance company to pay for it then you have to deal with the Devil's terms
.

 

That would be a start if it were available everywhere
, but the end result is it's still part of the present healthcare system that is ridiculously flawed, so it's not a problem solve


 

I don't know how to solve the problem completely, but putting a realistic cap on the amount they can charge for dispensing medications at the ER, would be somewhere to start... I know that MORE freedom in the market not LESS freedom is the way to fix the problem. We also, as I said before, need to remove the players who make their living between the patient and the physicians. Those players drive up cost and interfere in the doctor/patient relationship.


 

Overcharging and exorbitant fees drive up insurance premiums as well...I already agreed the people who use the ER facilities for general medical services is a problem...There is no open Market for medical services... 

 

You assume they are overcharging based on a retail experience. I'm telling you that the rates paid for the drug aren't the charge. Go find your EOB, if you can, and see what fraction of that charge your insurance company paid, I guarantee it isn't 25% of the $26.00.


 

The bill still says $26. If that were an uninsured person, that's what they would have to pay and that's WRONG


 

 

It was mentioned earlier that some people use the ER as a primary doctor facility and I know that's a fact...It's also a fact that some people use it as an excuse to get out of work...They don't want to work on a certain day, so they go to the ER and get a note saying they were seen at that facility and they have an excused absence. There is a lot of abuse of the health care system, and I think a major overhaul is what needs to happen...

 

It seems Canada's free health care system works pretty well, (although it's not completely free) but I doubt we could ever make a system like that work here because they jerk faces in Washington would find a way to screw it up and make it a pain in the rear Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.


 

When I said free, I also said it's not totally free...I dated a girl from Canada once and they don't pay anything for general medical things...They have to pay a small copay for specialists and surgery that isn't life threatening or that would not interfere with their standard of living...cosmetic surgeries and thing that are not life threatening are all on the consumer to pay, but general wellness visits to the doctors require no pay by the consumer...

 

Of course it's paid by taxes...The girl I dated from Canada said that many Canadian Drs are coming into The U.S. to work because they are paid a flat fee from the Government and they make more money here, plus they can decide which patients they want to see and not see, rather than be assigned patients

 

I'm shocked to hear that highly educated business people don't want the government dictating the terms of their business! It's almost like Socialism creates a talent drain that leads to a lower quality product! I've never seen that anywhere except in the USSR, Cuba, Europe and anywhere else the government has usurped the market to control healthcare.


 

This is interesting: 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468


 

Even after all this time Canadians still don't use their system they way the government wants them to. The primary issue with US healthcare right now is that we have a severe shortage of practitioners. The data is discussed here: 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/20/doctors-shortage-least-most/1644837/
  As the article states, nearly 1/3 of current doctors are planning to retire, much of that is driven by the cost and complexity of compliance with the new healthcare laws. Even forcing them to switch to EMR drove many doctors over the age of 50 out of medicine into early retirement. More government involvement isn't going to fix this problem, it will exacerbate it.


 

I already said I was reluctant to use the term regulate because I'm not in favor of government regulating business, but at some point in time, this kind of consumer gouging has to stopped


 

I doubt that any government program is used the way the government wants it to be used

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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We also, as I said Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.

Ever seen important people and politicians that use normal health care programs anywhere in the world? Or do they ever wait in line for any procedures? Me either...</div>
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I laugh at people that want to use Canada as model for the health care system. Just wait you'll regret those words.


I have family that had countless horror stories about Canada's health care system. It was a big reason my fathers family came to the United States in the first place.

Quote:I laugh at people that want to use Canada as model for the health care system. Just wait you'll regret those words.


I have family that had countless horror stories about Canada's health care system. It was a big reason my fathers family came to the United States in the first place.

I don't doubt that. I don't think there is a system anywhere that is efficient and cost effective

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350534" data-time="1414941996">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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I understand the contract thing...That's why they have the separate fee schedule for in network and out of network providers...In network providers generally agree to accept whatever payment the insurance company pays and not bill for the difference between what was billed and what was paid... Not quite, patient responsibility is a portion of the allowed amount. Insurance portion + Patient Portion = Allowed (Contracted) Amount. Depending on the type of plan you have you could have a small copay, a percentage co-insurance, or a deductible amount. As for out of network providers, they usually get less insurance money and more from the patient, it's how the insurance companies modify patient behavior to get the lowest cost for the service. The pain of the price point drives the patient to make good economic choices.


 

The copay for meds generally is when you fill a prescription not at the ER...There can be a copay sure...My plan says an ER visit is $100 copay

 

So you're upset about a charge that was covered by your managed care plan? Did you read your EOB to see what your insurance paid for your $26 pill? 


 

That's NO EXCUSE for gouging the consumer...In any other industry the government would be all over it screaming fraud by price gouging


 

We'll just have to agree to disagree, you don't seem to want to consider the cost of the delivery mechanism in the price. Hospitals are not "Do it yourself", they're billion dollar facilities staffed by highly trained and very expensive experts. That cost has to be recouped somehow, and the price of services is how that happens.


 

I maintain that the healthcare system grossly overcharges in certain areas and that it is unfair and unethical, and should be illegal...I know a large portion of the billing goes to cover overhead and malpractice insurance, but the insurance companies don't need any help in finding an excuse to raise premiums... Have you ever purchased an after market radio for an import car from the dealer? Your pay between 4 and 5 times what it would cost you at Best Buy. You know why? Because of where you received the service. It's the same for health care, buy in a facility you pay a facility rate. The CMS reimbursement schedule has a rate for both facility and non-facility making the price perfectly legal. The concept of DRGs and how hospitals are paid for the majority of their services is way to complex to get into here, but basically they are paid a flat rate based on the diagnosis of the patient, not al a cart by each service provided. As I said, the payment system is so ridiculously complex that it doesn't matter what they charge for a single drug, the insurance companies aren't losing any money on it.


 

And that is part of the problem...You can't receive medical services other than at medical facilities...There is no other option...Therefore, they can charge whatever they want because there is no "open market" for their services...

 

Sure you have options: you can visit a PCP in his office, you can go to a 24 hour Urgent Care Center, visit a free standing ER,  in Jacksonville we have 3 different healthcare systems offering almost 10 different hospital facilities. They don't all charge the same thing, you can shop around. Of course, if you expect your insurance company to pay for it then you have to deal with the Devil's terms
.

 

That would be a start if it were available everywhere
, but the end result is it's still part of the present healthcare system that is ridiculously flawed, so it's not a problem solve


 

IF it's not available everywhere, the question to ask is "Why?" The answer to that is that the barriers to market entry are too high courtesy of your federal and local governments. And I'm not disagreeing with your point that the system is flawed, I agree! But it's flawed because its too complex and over regulated, and the cure is the free market. Just like with package delivery, and telephone service and airlines and computers and EVERY other industry and product in our society.


 

I don't know how to solve the problem completely, but putting a realistic cap on the amount they can charge for dispensing medications at the ER, would be somewhere to start... I know that MORE freedom in the market not LESS freedom is the way to fix the problem. We also, as I said before, need to remove the players who make their living between the patient and the physicians. Those players drive up cost and interfere in the doctor/patient relationship.


 

Overcharging and exorbitant fees drive up insurance premiums as well...I already agreed the people who use the ER facilities for general medical services is a problem...There is no open Market for medical services... 

 

You assume they are overcharging based on a retail experience. I'm telling you that the rates paid for the drug aren't the charge. Go find your EOB, if you can, and see what fraction of that charge your insurance company paid, I guarantee it isn't 25% of the $26.00.


 

The bill still says $26. If that were an uninsured person, that's what they would have to pay and that's WRONG


 

Very few uninsured patients pay full price for hospital bills, we have even more staff devoted to helping the uninsured apply for government bennies and charity to finance their healthcare needs (that way we get paid at least something for our services). We also give away millions of dollars in care every year at all levels of the organization. If they do charge full price then most (if not all) hospitals are very generous with their credit terms.


 

 

It was mentioned earlier that some people use the ER as a primary doctor facility and I know that's a fact...It's also a fact that some people use it as an excuse to get out of work...They don't want to work on a certain day, so they go to the ER and get a note saying they were seen at that facility and they have an excused absence. There is a lot of abuse of the health care system, and I think a major overhaul is what needs to happen...

 

It seems Canada's free health care system works pretty well, (although it's not completely free) but I doubt we could ever make a system like that work here because they jerk faces in Washington would find a way to screw it up and make it a pain in the rear Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.


 

When I said free, I also said it's not totally free...I dated a girl from Canada once and they don't pay anything for general medical things...They have to pay a small copay for specialists and surgery that isn't life threatening or that would not interfere with their standard of living...cosmetic surgeries and thing that are not life threatening are all on the consumer to pay, but general wellness visits to the doctors require no pay by the consumer...

 

Of course it's paid by taxes...The girl I dated from Canada said that many Canadian Drs are coming into The U.S. to work because they are paid a flat fee from the Government and they make more money here, plus they can decide which patients they want to see and not see, rather than be assigned patients

 

I'm shocked to hear that highly educated business people don't want the government dictating the terms of their business! It's almost like Socialism creates a talent drain that leads to a lower quality product! I've never seen that anywhere except in the USSR, Cuba, Europe and anywhere else the government has usurped the market to control healthcare.


 

This is interesting: 
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canadian-patients-wait-longest-to-see-family-doctors-1.2501468


 

Even after all this time Canadians still don't use their system they way the government wants them to. The primary issue with US healthcare right now is that we have a severe shortage of practitioners. The data is discussed here: 
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2012/10/20/doctors-shortage-least-most/1644837/
  As the article states, nearly 1/3 of current doctors are planning to retire, much of that is driven by the cost and complexity of compliance with the new healthcare laws. Even forcing them to switch to EMR drove many doctors over the age of 50 out of medicine into early retirement. More government involvement isn't going to fix this problem, it will exacerbate it.


 

I already said I was reluctant to use the term regulate because I'm not in favor of government regulating business, but at some point in time, this kind of consumer gouging has to stopped


 

I doubt that any government program is used the way the government wants it to be used


 

Again you call it "gouging" because of the delivery mechanism. I guess you pay the same when you go out for a pizza at the local gourmet pizzeria as you do for a pizza you carry out from Domino's? You pay the same for a can of green beans at Whole Foods vs the local Sav-A-Lot? The same price at a full service car wash vs doing it yourself at the local drive in? Because those differences in price are EXACTLY the same as having an RN bring you your Darvocet as picking it up at Wal-Mart. It's simple economics and it exists in every commercial transaction you make. It's not gouging to provide you a premium service, the issue is all those who use the premium service when a lower cost service would've sufficed. That's the issue that healthcare reform needs to deal with, and as the article on Canada shows, even Universal Healthcare financing doesn't solve that problem.

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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="anonymous2112" data-cid="350570" data-time="1414943727">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="flsprtsgod" data-cid="350506" data-time="1414940241">
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="wrong_box" data-cid="350477" data-time="1414937623">
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We also, as I said Canada's system is so good that rich Canadians and their important politicians come to Cleveland or Miami to have their surgery while everyone else waits in line. Canada did not have MRI available to their citizens in 1992 when the US had it in the early 80s. Canada's system isn't free, it's paid for by the taxes taken from every citizen, and like the European systems, they depend on the innovation of the US Healthcare system to move forward because capitalism drives innovation while government and socialism stifle it.

Ever seen important people and politicians that use normal health care programs anywhere in the world? Or do they ever wait in line for any procedures? Me either...</div>
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In the US they don't have to, and neither do poor or unimportant people. It seems that in Canada they do.

Quote:I don't doubt that. I don't think there is a system anywhere that is efficient and cost effective

 

That right, because they start at "heavily regulated" and go towards more "completely government owned", that will never get you efficient or cost effective.

I can't understand how you can justify the charge of $26 for delivery of a pill that cost pennies or a fraction of a penny...The percentage of profit on that is outrageous...It doesn't matter if the insurance company pays that amount or not, the consumer without coverage will be billed that cost...

 

You really can't have a "free market" for healthcare facilities because only the health care industry can have them...it's not like you can turn the neighborhood tavern into an unregulated private healthcare facility open only to members of the tavern...You can't make health care facilities like country clubs where you buy memberships, you certainly can't open your own hospital and it's doubtful you would ever get licensed to open an urgent care facility either because they health care industry mainly hospitals want ALL the business...

 

When they made it a law that hospitals could not turn away patients because they didn't have the ability to pay, they would have created some form of compensation for that occasion...Some of which you stated above...

 

Using your example above, you make it sound like the difference between carry out and delivery is the same as the difference between selling their pizza at $10 for pick up and $12 for delivery rather than a pill that was purchased for pennies or a fraction of a penny and sold for $26...There is a HUGE difference between the two...I don't have a problem with the deliverer mechanism, I have a problem with the huge differential between the cost to purchase the pill and the price sold to the consumer...I would be ok with something like $2 - $5, but $26 is just way too much and they should be investigated for price gouging... .

 

 

Quote:In the US they don't have to, and neither do poor or unimportant people. It seems that in Canada they do.

apparently they do not, they just go elsewhere as you already stated...many American patients go overseas for treatment because some of the procedures and practices for certain conditions are not allowed here...It's pretty uncommon for politicians and notable persons anywhere to wait for healthcare anywhere, you make it sound as if Canada is is the only place that happens...

Quote:That right, because they start at "heavily regulated" and go towards more "completely government owned", that will never get you efficient or cost effective.

regulation is only effective when the right mechanisms and systems are regulated...you can regulate things to death but if you haven't regulated what the real problems are, you have added to the problem(s) rather than fix them

How did this thread morph from Social Security to medical care, medical insurance, ACA, and emergency room costs?

Quote:How did this thread morph from Social Security to medical care, medical insurance, ACA, and emergency room costs?

I was just wondering the same thing

Quote:How did this thread morph from Social Security to medical care, medical insurance, ACA, and emergency room costs?

 

It's a politics thread, they pretty much all do that.

Quote:I can't understand how you can justify the charge of $26 for delivery of a pill that cost pennies or a fraction of a penny...The percentage of profit on that is outrageous...It doesn't matter if the insurance company pays that amount or not, the consumer without coverage will be billed that cost...

 

You really can't have a "free market" for healthcare facilities because only the health care industry can have them...it's not like you can turn the neighborhood tavern into an unregulated private healthcare facility open only to members of the tavern...You can't make health care facilities like country clubs where you buy memberships, you certainly can't open your own hospital and it's doubtful you would ever get licensed to open an urgent care facility either because they health care industry mainly hospitals want ALL the business...

 

When they made it a law that hospitals could not turn away patients because they didn't have the ability to pay, they would have created some form of compensation for that occasion...Some of which you stated above...

 

Using your example above, you make it sound like the difference between carry out and delivery is the same as the difference between selling their pizza at $10 for pick up and $12 for delivery rather than a pill that was purchased for pennies or a fraction of a penny and sold for $26...There is a HUGE difference between the two...I don't have a problem with the deliverer mechanism, I have a problem with the huge differential between the cost to purchase the pill and the price sold to the consumer...I would be ok with something like $2 - $5, but $26 is just way too much and they should be investigated for price gouging... .

 

FIrst, you don't know the cost of the pill to make that assumption, you're basing it on your out of pocket cost at the pharmacy. Last week I had a treatment where the medication cost over $6,000. You assume that the cost is less than a penny and that skews your entire perception. Going to a hospital is going to a billion dollar facility staffed by professionals who are very expensive to retain. The cost of everything is calculated into the price of the services and products rendered there and someone has to pay for it. 

 

And your repeated complaint about mark up is really something you should complain about in every industry. Ever bought popcorn at the movies? How about a cup of coffee at Starbucks? The mark up on those is in the thousands of percentage points. To just assume that health care shouldn't do the same thing is to assume that they can stay in business with no margin. The pizza metaphor is the difference between you picking up Domino's and you going to a 5 star restaurant for dinner and ordering pizza. The pizza won't be the same price because the delivery mechanism is different (you'll even pay more to tip the server!), even if the quality is the same. $5 at Domino's vs $40 at the 5 star = 700% markup entirely based on WHERE you got the pizza. The same thing happens when you go to the ER for care, and it applies to every service, not just the meds, because the delivery mechanism is outrageously expensive.

 

And as for access to services? Yes, you can create a private healthcare facility, they exist all over the country.There's also concierge medicine where you pay for a membership to have exclusive access to your doctor. 24 hour access and house calls, no office appointments needed, you have his phone number and can call whenever you want. Those are both free market solutions to the "health care problem" that are working. And you could turn your neighborhood tavern into a healthcare facility if the state didn't forbid it. Why do they forbid it? Because they can. Why don't we have more hospitals? Because the process to get a permit to build one takes years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, and sometimes a lawsuit so a judge can decide who gets to build it. But again, those are levels of complexity added by the over-regulation of the industry that drive up the costs. Just because we DON'T have free market healthcare doesn't me we COULDN'T have it.

Quote:FIrst, you don't know the cost of the pill to make that assumption, you're basing it on your out of pocket cost at the pharmacy. Last week I had a treatment where the medication cost over $6,000. You assume that the cost is less than a penny and that skews your entire perception. Going to a hospital is going to a billion dollar facility staffed by professionals who are very expensive to retain. The cost of everything is calculated into the price of the services and products rendered there and someone has to pay for it. 

 

And your repeated complaint about mark up is really something you should complain about in every industry. Ever bought popcorn at the movies? How about a cup of coffee at Starbucks? The mark up on those is in the thousands of percentage points. To just assume that health care shouldn't do the same thing is to assume that they can stay in business with no margin. The pizza metaphor is the difference between you picking up Domino's and you going to a 5 star restaurant for dinner and ordering pizza. The pizza won't be the same price because the delivery mechanism is different (you'll even pay more to tip the server!), even if the quality is the same. $5 at Domino's vs $40 at the 5 star = 700% markup entirely based on WHERE you got the pizza. The same thing happens when you go to the ER for care, and it applies to every service, not just the meds, because the delivery mechanism is outrageously expensive.

 

And as for access to services? Yes, you can create a private healthcare facility, they exist all over the country.There's also concierge medicine where you pay for a membership to have exclusive access to your doctor. 24 hour access and house calls, no office appointments needed, you have his phone number and can call whenever you want. Those are both free market solutions to the "health care problem" that are working. And you could turn your neighborhood tavern into a healthcare facility if the state didn't forbid it. Why do they forbid it? Because they can. Why don't we have more hospitals? Because the process to get a permit to build one takes years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, and sometimes a lawsuit so a judge can decide who gets to build it. But again, those are levels of complexity added by the over-regulation of the industry that drive up the costs. Just because we DON'T have free market healthcare doesn't me we COULDN'T have it.

I can assume that when a 30 day supply of pills is less than $12 as a prescription, they are not paying $2.5 per pill... It would be far less...It's not terribly hard to do a simple google search and find that the majority of pills such as moderate pain pills are sold to hospitals for pennies or fraction of pennies...I did not get an exact quote no, but I did find the part that I just said...

 

Everything you buy is marked up but not thousands of percent...Here I'll sell you a 2008 silverado with only 57K miles on it. I paid $22k for it but I'll sell it to you for $125,000...You would be ok with used car sales mark ups such as that from dealers? Didn't think so...There comes a point in time when things are marked up TOO much...Every business is trying to make as much money as possible but when it comes to marking products up for resale, there comes a point when the huge markup just becomes nothing but pure greed and there is really no defense for it...

Quote:Everything you buy is marked up but not thousands of percent...Here I'll sell you a 2008 silverado with only 57K miles on it. I paid $22k for it but I'll sell it to you for $125,000...You would be ok with used car sales mark ups such as that from dealers? Didn't think so...There comes a point in time when things are marked up TOO much...Every business is trying to make as much money as possible but when it comes to marking products up for resale, there comes a point when the huge markup just becomes nothing but pure greed and there is really no defense for it...

 

Your example doesn't work, the question is the mark up from the factory to the new car dealership. You aren't buying a used pill, that wouldn't taste very good.