I think regional secession is warranted and needed. What we need or do up here in the Northwest is not beneficial to the south. Actually, a lot of us up here resent the south for holding us back because they take more money and need more support from the Feds. If you take the Feds away, there'd be about 15 states or regions, and all would be self sufficient in their own way.
As far as DC, it is technically an enemy country/city/state. The USA is under control by DC. That is the only way taxation is legal.
If there was a legit moderate politician, they'd win every election until they said no more.
Quote:Being in the Navy isn't the same as being on Welfare. That's just ridiculous.
I'm all for unemployment... Sometimes bad things happen to good people and you get laid off etc. But when you have zero skills or will to work and have been on it your whole life, and have more bay-bays to increase your check size, that's a problem.
Where did I say it was? The Defense budget is essentially funding a massive jobs program. Actual military personnel is a small part of it. Defense contractors are job creators, are they not? Do we need every weapon system, every new aircraft, every military base? I'm not saying much of it is not necessary, but please don't tell me the waste and fraud there is that much greater than welfare fraud and milked benefits.
Quote:Don't sweat it man, they "know" that it doesn't happen and when it does it isn't really a drain on our system. Never mind that you, me, and others actually "know" women who readily admit to getting knocked up for the bennies. What we know is irrelevant compared to what they know.
And I actually know people who don't. Why is your experience more relevant than mine? Both are anecdotal. Anyway, who is "they"? Speaking for myself, I know it happens, and I know it's a drain. I just don't believe bennie babies (nice term from someone who places so much value on human life) are the massive drain on our nation's resources "you" (the collective you, since we're making broad generalities here, like "they") think they are. So what is "your" solution? Let the babies die? Don't feed, house, educate them or provide health care for them?
Is the answer to not help at all, or figure out how to make that help more effective?
Quote:And I actually know people who don't. Why is your experience more relevant than mine? Both are anecdotal. Anyway, who is "they"? Speaking for myself, I know it happens, and I know it's a drain. I just don't believe bennie babies (nice term from someone who places so much value on human life) are the massive drain on our nation's resources "you" (the collective you, since we're making broad generalities here, like "they") think they are. So what is "your" solution? Let the babies die? Don't feed, house, educate them or provide health care for them?
Is the answer to not help at all, or figure out how to make that help more effective?
I didn't say your experience didn't exist or that it's a problem. All welfare is a drain on society because it's a selective choice to support the unproductive. That isn't a bad thing, but we cannot, as they say, let the safety net become a hammock. And in our ridiculously complicated welfare system it's much too easy to defraud and to abuse.
I don't have the perfect answer, if I did I'd run for God, but I do know that our system is broken and most of the ideas currently offered to fix it will only make it worse (some intentionally, some just foolish). I do like the idea of a flat rate of assistance per family rather than per dependent. I also think fixed timelines for the able (like the W2W program) would be an excellent idea.
It bothers me that, as you insinuate, many people take my good nature and personal religious values and use them as a weapon against me to force the continued support of the unproductive. There's instruction in there for folks like me that also says if you don't work then you don't eat and I have no obligation to support those who can but won't; but we rarely have that trotted out to make a point. Speaking as me the individual, not me the society, I fulfill my obligation to the poor every 2 weeks when my pay comes in and a portion of it goes to local charities. Speaking as me the society, the burden should not be on the government collective to provide charity; that isn't it's function or intent.
Quote:Where did I say it was? The Defense budget is essentially funding a massive jobs program. Actual military personnel is a small part of it. Defense contractors are job creators, are they not? Do we need every weapon system, every new aircraft, every military base? I'm not saying much of it is not necessary, but please don't tell me the waste and fraud there is that much greater than welfare fraud and milked benefits.
Charles Bennett was an untouchable politician because he carried water for the Navy. He was considered a Political God.
Corrine Brown is ridiculed by segments of the population because she claims to "bring home the bacon."
Yet both were similar in that they transferred funds from Washington to Jacksonville - Bennett from DoD and Brown from HHS and HUD.
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
Quote:IMO, that's when the polarization we have now began. He was a master triangulator.
I think operators on both sides have since committed to such hyperbole, etc. in an effort to paint one another as extreme.
Remember when it was cool to call everything "extreme" in the 90s? Didn't matter what the product was, that's how it was merchandised. Culture began to shift.
Any rational thought from either side is now annihilated by those seeking to destroy the other. There's no debate any longer. There are no winners or losers in public discourse. Any salient point is completely ignored, misrepresented, or flat out lied about. After all, you tell a lie enough, it becomes "true."
Once upon a time, we had leaders who believed and were able to articulate that yes, indeed there were truths that were self evident.
Now, all that's left is lawyeresque spin. Depends on what the definition of "is", is.... etc...
I'd encourage anyone who cares, to study how this nation's government was founded. They were very, very bright people who searched every corner of earth and it's history to develop the best system before or since based on what did/didn't work in the past.
They also warned of keeping this once great nation from becoming what it has by trying to limit government. But unfortunately, even they knew that a government run out of control would be it's own undoing, and they also knew it was likely to happen again over time. History repeating itself.
But just like the people had the power to form it when the nation was founded, the foundation remains there to do the same again if necessary. Should in the course of human events it becomes once again necessary.
Well, say what you want about Clinton/Gingrich, but things still got done back then. Sure, we had a government shutdown when the Speaker of the House was put on the back of the plane, but they eventually got together, hammered things out, and had the US on track continuing through 8 years of peace and prosperity. Perhaps when you're having an affair while accusing the president of the same, you build a kinship.
As for our founding fathers, I've read up on some of the things they used to say about each other while trying to get elected, and it's easily on par with the ridiculous things their progeny accuses each other of these days. All the while building a unique Republic and molding it on the fly.
The dude on the 20 dollar bill once completely ignored a Supreme court decision - try doing that these days.
I think Eric's onto something with things changing after 9/11. But it might not be the event that did it, just the point in time when social media created an environment where we could all get into our own echo chambers and convince ourselves that everyone else was so, very, very, wrong. They must be, since I have an entire network of people who think EXACTLY like me.
Or, should I say, that I think exactly like them - there is a difference.
Quote:I think regional secession is warranted and needed. What we need or do up here in the Northwest is not beneficial to the south. Actually, a lot of us up here resent the south for holding us back because they take more money and need more support from the Feds. If you take the Feds away, there'd be about 15 states or regions, and all would be self sufficient in their own way.
As far as DC, it is technically an enemy country/city/state. The USA is under control by DC. That is the only way taxation is legal.
If there was a legit moderate politician, they'd win every election until they said no more.
Florida would be the 19th largest economy in the world, on Par with Belgium and others. I'm all for it.
Quote:I didn't say your experience didn't exist or that it's a problem. All welfare is a drain on society because it's a selective choice to support the unproductive. That isn't a bad thing, but we cannot, as they say, let the safety net become a hammock. And in our ridiculously complicated welfare system it's much too easy to defraud and to abuse.
I don't have the perfect answer, if I did I'd run for God, but I do know that our system is broken and most of the ideas currently offered to fix it will only make it worse (some intentionally, some just foolish). I do like the idea of a flat rate of assistance per family rather than per dependent. I also think fixed timelines for the able (like the W2W program) would be an excellent idea.
It bothers me that, as you insinuate, many people take my good nature and personal religious values and use them as a weapon against me to force the continued support of the unproductive. There's instruction in there for folks like me that also says if you don't work then you don't eat and I have no obligation to support those who can but won't; but we rarely have that trotted out to make a point. Speaking as me the individual, not me the society, I fulfill my obligation to the poor every 2 weeks when my pay comes in and a portion of it goes to local charities. Speaking as me the society, the burden should not be on the government collective to provide charity; that isn't it's function or intent.
I like the fixed assistance plan. It'll never pass though. The FEDERAL government should not be in charge of any welfare systems. That's what churches and local communities are for. But, in this far over-reaching top down government that we have it's what we get...
I get that people are disabled, and likely on public assistance..that's not an issue. If you are disabled and cannot work, that's one thing. Able bodied people just sucking off the Fed teet really chaps my hind parts though.
Quote:Well, say what you want about Clinton/Gingrich, but things still got done back then. Sure, we had a government shutdown when the Speaker of the House was put on the back of the plane, but they eventually got together, hammered things out, and had the US on track continuing through 8 years of peace and prosperity. Perhaps when you're having an affair while accusing the president of the same, you build a kinship.
As for our founding fathers, I've read up on some of the things they used to say about each other while trying to get elected, and it's easily on par with the ridiculous things their progeny accuses each other of these days. All the while building a unique Republic and molding it on the fly.
The dude on the 20 dollar bill once completely ignored a Supreme court decision - try doing that these days.
I think Eric's onto something with things changing after 9/11. But it might not be the event that did it, just the point in time when social media created an environment where we could all get into our own echo chambers and convince ourselves that everyone else was so, very, very, wrong. They must be, since I have an entire network of people who think EXACTLY like me.
Or, should I say, that I think exactly like them - there is a difference.
9/11 was the end of our personal privacy. With the Patriot act, NDAA, and the advent of social media we either give all the information away, or they take it.
Quote:So you think poor people - people who have often made poor economic decisions - are making wise economic choices?
Do you have any idea how much a woman receives in AFDC, and how much "extra" she gets per child? Look it up, and then tell me you think women are having kids to "make money".
You said it didn't happen. It does happen and it's more often then you give it credit.
Again, I have listened to them tell me that they intend on having more children to get more money. Apparently, it's enough for them to want to do it.
Quote:I can cite as many families where the opposite is true, where they do whatever they can to get off the public dole or, at the very least, don't produce children just to increase their benefits. Welfare recipients are an easy target. The abusers are easy to spot, and a lot of people want to think they are the reason this country is going to hell. These same people will vote for a politician that makes sure a Navy base that is their source of income remains open, whether it is vital to our national defense, or not. There are many recipients of government welfare.
Welfare babies are not the scourge and drain on our system they are portrayed to be. Regardless, what is the solution? Starve the children? Mandatory vasectomies and/or tubal ligations?
That's doesn't mean the opposite isn't true. I'm not against the idea of welfare.
They may not be responsible for our country's downfall, but it's still a problem we need to address.
I drive the same streets, in the same neighborhoods, in the same ghetto, every single day. I have talked to these people. They have offered to buy me drinks / food with their EBT cards. I've listened to them buy others drinks / foods with their EBT cards and a lot of it. I see people, I know are on government assistance, spend all day walking up and down the streets. They walk right by businesses with "Help Wanted" posted on the window. I can go on and on.
There are a lot of people that legitimately need help. When I walk into someone's section 8 home, and they have more food than I do, an XBOX One / Playstation 4, a large flatscreen TV, then there's a problem with the system. You think these are the outliers. I've seen too many to say you're right.
I have to agree some with JagsNGeorgia on this. I worked for 2 years with an organization in Jacksonville that shall remain nameless that worked with low(er) income folks and did I learn some interesting things.
The most shocking at the time was that people who receive food stamps would 'sell' them. I asked how on earth do you sell something like that? The one with the benefits and their friend go to the food store and buys whatever the friend wants to a certain dollar amount and the one with benefits gets drugs/cash/sex/favors/whatever in return. And this happens all the time.
I also lived in the ghetto of Duval and saw the same stuff JnD saw. People with no ambition, at all. Of the block I lived on with 7 houses on it, myself and my roommates were the only ones who actually worked. Only one guy was disabled and couldn't work. Another house was a full on drug house. People sitting on their porches and waiting for the welfare checks to come in. Going and buying booze instead of paying rent or the electric bill. Going and buying the biggest flat screen TV they could fit on the wall and designer shoes while collecting every welfare benefit available.
I'm not against helping folks. I have been on the receiving end of benefits when my life hit the wall in ways that still pain me to think about and I had no options. I used what I needed and appreciated it, but I didn't live there. I didn't stay in that mindset. The problem for a lot of folks is, that is the mindset they're raised in. And their families and friends were raised in. It goes back generations. When you're raised in an environment you tend to repeat that with your kids and they repeat it with theirs. Unless folks were to be forced to depend on themselves entirely, which will never happen, they won't change. They don't know any other way and they don't really have to.
Quote:I have to agree some with JagsNGeorgia on this. I worked for 2 years with an organization in Jacksonville that shall remain nameless that worked with low(er) income folks and did I learn some interesting things.
The most shocking at the time was that people who receive food stamps would 'sell' them. I asked how on earth do you sell something like that? The one with the benefits and their friend go to the food store and buys whatever the friend wants to a certain dollar amount and the one with benefits gets drugs/cash/sex/favors/whatever in return. And this happens all the time.
I also lived in the ghetto of Duval and saw the same stuff JnD saw. People with no ambition, at all. Of the block I lived on with 7 houses on it, myself and my roommates were the only ones who actually worked. Only one guy was disabled and couldn't work. Another house was a full on drug house. People sitting on their porches and waiting for the welfare checks to come in. Going and buying booze instead of paying rent or the electric bill. Going and buying the biggest flat screen TV they could fit on the wall and designer shoes while collecting every welfare benefit available.
I'm not against helping folks. I have been on the receiving end of benefits when my life hit the wall in ways that still pain me to think about and I had no options. I used what I needed and appreciated it, but I didn't live there. I didn't stay in that mindset. The problem for a lot of folks is, that is the mindset they're raised in. And their families and friends were raised in. It goes back generations. When you're raised in an environment you tend to repeat that with your kids and they repeat it with theirs. Unless folks were to be forced to depend on themselves entirely, which will never happen, they won't change. They don't know any other way and they don't really have to.
This doesn't just happen in the ghetto, it happens all over.
Case in point. My sister-in-law was dating a man a while back that was very much like you described. In his case though, it was not only welfare benefits but also unemployment compensation. He was laid off from his job and started collecting unemployment benefits. Since this wasn't enough money to cover all of his living expenses, he also qualified for and received food stamps. We're talking about a young man in his 30's with no physical problems that would prevent him from working.
I remember him telling me that he was offered a job in his particular trade (welder), but he turned it down because it was a non-union workplace. As he described turning down the job he said to me "besides, I can sit home, get high and play my video games".
Of course thankfully, my sister-in-law didn't date him for very long.
I also briefly dated a girl years ago that used to "buy" food stamps from her neighbor. This was back when food stamps were actual paper in little booklets. She would give her neighbor .50c for every food stamp dollar. In other words, every $100 worth of groceries ended up costing her $50.
In the first case, the guy was a male Caucasian in his mid 30's. In the second case, the girl that I used to date was Hispanic and in her early 20's. The person that she bought the food stamps from was a Hispanic woman in her early 30's.
My point is, I agree with you that some people truly need some help, and I have no problem providing it. However, there is a real problem with motivation in this country. There are far too many people that simply take advantage of what is available, and there is no race/cultural boundary to the problem.
Quote:Well, say what you want about Clinton/Gingrich, but things still got done back then. Sure, we had a government shutdown when the Speaker of the House was put on the back of the plane, but they eventually got together, hammered things out, and had the US on track continuing through 8 years of peace and prosperity. Perhaps when you're having an affair while accusing the president of the same, you build a kinship.
As for our founding fathers, I've read up on some of the things they used to say about each other while trying to get elected, and it's easily on par with the ridiculous things their progeny accuses each other of these days. All the while building a unique Republic and molding it on the fly.
The dude on the 20 dollar bill once completely ignored a Supreme court decision - try doing that these days.
I think Eric's onto something with things changing after 9/11. But it might not be the event that did it, just the point in time when social media created an environment where we could all get into our own echo chambers and convince ourselves that everyone else was so, very, very, wrong. They must be, since I have an entire network of people who think EXACTLY like me.
Or, should I say, that I think exactly like them - there is a difference.
That was the last Congress who actually understood what they were sent there to do. We've had no better Congress since those Clinton had during his second term.
The sensationalism and polarization was there well before 9/11.
The 90s were filled with colorful buzzwords and phrases eagerly lapped up by the rising generation of narcissists and egocentrics seeking pseudoknowledge. Every event that occurred was labeled "unprecedented" by an ever increasingly untrustable and unapologetically biased media. We were sold that we "entitled" to anything and everything under the sun, political leaders suffering delusions of grandeur were fawned over by the media for their perceived "gravitas", and of course... every evil known to man was rooted in a "vast right wing conspiracy." Every ridiculous word uttered with a straight face, of course, as if it were gospel. The wise chuckled, but as they chuckled and thought it would do no harm... others actually fell for it. The seeds were being planted that have grown into the polarization we have today.
Honestly, the youth of America who have lived only during the presidencies of Bush, Clinton, and Obama unfortunately have not seen this country's government or leadership at their best, to say the least. I can understand why some would become jaded. But you have to go farther back in history to learn the lessons of what truly works and what doesn't. We were founded on the best of the best self governing principles that were chosen because they were proven to have worked, yet we have begun to turn back to policies that have repeatedly failed throughout the history of man. Yet those who think they are the smartest people in the room, today's egocentric and narcissistic leaders, think the repeated failures of the policies they continue to press despite their harm were due to themselves not being around to "get it right" before now. That somehow our being blessed with their presence will somehow make bad policy work the next go round.
Quote:This doesn't just happen in the ghetto, it happens all over.
Case in point. My sister-in-law was dating a man a while back that was very much like you described. In his case though, it was not only welfare benefits but also unemployment compensation. He was laid off from his job and started collecting unemployment benefits. Since this wasn't enough money to cover all of his living expenses, he also qualified for and received food stamps. We're talking about a young man in his 30's with no physical problems that would prevent him from working.
I remember him telling me that he was offered a job in his particular trade (welder), but he turned it down because it was a non-union workplace. As he described turning down the job he said to me "besides, I can sit home, get high and play my video games".
Of course thankfully, my sister-in-law didn't date him for very long.
I also briefly dated a girl years ago that used to "buy" food stamps from her neighbor. This was back when food stamps were actual paper in little booklets. She would give her neighbor .50c for every food stamp dollar. In other words, every $100 worth of groceries ended up costing her $50.
In the first case, the guy was a male Caucasian in his mid 30's. In the second case, the girl that I used to date was Hispanic and in her early 20's. The person that she bought the food stamps from was a Hispanic woman in her early 30's.
My point is, I agree with you that some people truly need some help, and I have no problem providing it. However, there is a real problem with motivation in this country. There are far too many people that simply take advantage of what is available, and there is no race/cultural boundary to the problem.
I completely agree. I can only speak of my experience and is why I used the example that I did. But yes, laziness knows no color nor gender.
I haven't said a lot in the political forum for my own personal reasons but I read them often.
The political forum seems to me like a microcosm of the political party issues our country faces and struggles with. For the most part it's a clear debate between right vs Left, democrats vs republicans, etc. It makes it tough to want to post in here when you have the same few posters on each side of the argument each time. Like a gang of vultures looking to attack their prey. I like the political forum addition but man a lot of the threads can be tough to read.
I don't affiliate myself with one particular party, multiple parties, or any party for that matter. I don't know what I would classify myself as, not that there is a need to classify myself or anyone for that matter. Too much of that happens as it is and divides people even further.
Quote:I haven't said a lot in the political forum for my own personal reasons but I read them often.
The political forum seems to me like a microcosm of the political party issues our country faces and struggles with. For the most part it's a clear debate between right vs Left, democrats vs republicans, etc. It makes it tough to want to post in here when you have the same few posters on each side of the argument each time. Like a gang of vultures looking to attack their prey. I like the political forum addition but man a lot of the threads can be tough to read.
I don't affiliate myself with one particular party, multiple parties, or any party for that matter. I don't know what I would classify myself as, not that there is a need to classify myself or anyone for that matter. Too much of that happens as it is and divides people even further.
Hey we have quite a few Libertarians on here (and some I suspect that lean Libertarian but don't call themselves Libertarian).
Quote:Hey we have quite a few Libertarians on here (and some I suspect that lean Libertarian but don't call themselves Libertarian).
Green Party too. Even if most people have no idea what the Green party is.
Quote:Green Party too. Even if most people have no idea what the Green party is.
I really don't know to much about the Green Party to be honest, the name makes me think it's an environmental party?
Quote:I really don't know to much about the Green Party to be honest, the name makes me think it's an environmental party?
It's basically the left side of libertarianism.
Essentially put: They believe in the philosophy that people should be able to do anything they want as long it doesn't effect anybody who didn't voluntarily participate, and they also believe that the government can and should help it's citizens.
Quote:It's basically the left side of libertarianism.
Essentially put: They believe in the philosophy that people should be able to do anything they want as long it doesn't effect anybody who didn't voluntarily participate, and they also believe that the government can and should help it's citizens.
So it's probably on welfare where we'd see the biggest differences?
Quote:Hey we have quite a few Libertarians on here (and some I suspect that lean Libertarian but don't call themselves Libertarian).
I think most of us are libertarians at heart. Libertarianism is a great ideal to aspire to. It's when the rubber meets the road, and we start looking at the actual effects of various policies, what is effective and what is not, what is practical, what works, and what steps need to be taken to protect my rights against your liberties, it is then that we divide ourselves into democrats and republicans, liberals, moderates, conservatives, and none-of-the-above-all-over-the-map.
You should have all the liberties there are, but it has to end when your fist meets my nose, when your pollution affects my property, when your smoke is drawn into my lungs, when your right to take drugs causes you to hit me with your car, when your right to sell your product in the grocery store causes me to be poisoned. That's the practical aspect of it. We are all in favor of free markets up to the point that our fundamental rights are infringed. That's when we need to restrict your liberty- to protect my rights.
Quote:So it's probably on welfare where we'd see the biggest differences?
Welfare, Minimum Wage, environment, public transportation, and public education.
A lot of which would be achieved in part by cutting the military budget. (and getting out of the wars that we're in), as well as cutting business subsidies.
I don't agree with everything on the green party platform, but I doubt anyone agrees with one parties platform. (I am pro-death penalty for example). I just found libertarianism a tad too anarchist for me.
Quote:I think most of us are libertarians at heart. Libertarianism is a great ideal to aspire to. It's when the rubber meets the road, and we start looking at the actual effects of various policies, what is effective and what is not, what is practical, what works, and what steps need to be taken to protect my rights against your liberties, it is then that we divide ourselves into democrats and republicans, liberals, moderates, conservatives, and none-of-the-above-all-over-the-map.
You should have all the liberties there are, but it has to end when your fist meets my nose, when your pollution affects my property, when your smoke is drawn into my lungs, when your right to take drugs causes you to hit me with your car, when your right to sell your product in the grocery store causes me to be poisoned. That's the practical aspect of it. We are all in favor of free markets up to the point that our fundamental rights are infringed. That's when we need to restrict your liberty- to protect my rights.
The problem with libertarianism is it's really rather nebulous and undefined in most domains, and as such crazies of all sorts claim it as their position.
You can have libertarians who think the government needs to stop telling them they have to let black people drink from the white water fountain.
You can also have libertarians who think government's proper function is to stop oppression of others liberties.
Really it comes down to the disagreement of what liberty is.
To some it's letting them refuse to serve blacks and gays.
To others it's creating a market that allows for economic liberty and success for everyone.
It's also why libertarian usually seems to be code for, "I always vote republican, but I want to pretend I'm somehow principled differently from normal republicans." It's an easy shield to hold up because it can be twisted to mean so many things and be so many positions.