Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

The bottom line is this team has been losing too long and by too much.  There is supposed to be entertainment but I don't find it enjoyable to watch the Jags take a beating every Sunday only with the assumption of "it will get better one day"  that is a fact because it can't get any worse.

Two of those coaches weren't coming here and you know it. Arians could have been a possibility but chances are he was going to choose a team with a better QB situation at the time.

Knighton wasn't re-signing. He made it clear he wanted to play for JDR and a contender. I didn't agree with the Cox move at the time, but that turned out to be a good decision for the FO and 20 million saved. They kept Lowery, he just couldn't shake off the injuries/concussions. Daryl Smith is the only move I can agree with you on.

 

Its possible that they discussed contracts with Monroe and he indicated he either wasn't re-signing or wanted too much money. We may never know what was discussed behind closed doors.

 

All three of those are just a matter of $$. 


 

As far as the coaches, you really can't say that Caldwell couldn't have hired Gruden since he never even tried. Gruden likes Florida and never wanted GM duties. Overpaying a coach by an extra $2M per year is peanuts compared to player salaries. I think Gruden would have taken the job if the deal was right. Reid was already gone to KC when Caldwell was hired IIRC. In any case he wanted GM control and was thus out of contention, so you're right about him. I included him because he was on my wish list at the time.The question was what I would have done differently. Not all would have worked out. I doubt that Arians would have turned down the job because of Gabbert. Coaches have an inflated opinion of their ability to reclaim former failures with potential. (e.g. Jim Harbaugh)


 

Knighton took a while before signing with Denver, so I doubt he'd have turned down a Jags offer. His disagreement with Musgrave/Tucker would have had no bearing on his willingness to stay since they both were gone. He gets to not have to move, and Florida has no state income tax. And isn't Gus supposed to be able to get everyone enthused about playing for the Jags? The decision to dump Monroe must have been made before they drafted Joeckel (at least I hope Caldwell plans that far ahead). I doubt failed contract talks were a factor.


TBH Pasztor seems to have been the better option out of all of those.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. The Jags had suffered at RT for several years at that point. And maybe Pasztor would have made a great guard had the Jags not needed him at RT.

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1.  That's a lot of work. ProFootballReference.com is spotty about listing starters.


 

 

2.  Looking at their records after those seasons does not bode well. The Oilers had three more losing seasons before going 9-7. The Browns managed one 9-7 season in 2001 before returning to their losing ways. The Bills also managed but one winning (9-7) season in the next four years.


 

3.  I thought it was a good draft. No one is threatening the Pro Bowl so far, although Bortles and Hurns have flashed at times. Bortles is playing because he's far better than Henne, but that's division by zero. Lee and Robinson have been just guys so far. Linder and Bowanko would not start for most teams (if any) but are playing OK. Johnson looked good Sunday in his first playing time, although he didn't look like much in preseason.

 

 

4.You might also want to bring up the name 'Herschel Walker.' It's a shame Caldwell couldn't trade MJD for a boatload of high draft picks.


 

 

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1.  I discovered that when I was researching.  Generally they seemed okay, but there were some (not many but more than you'd like to be sure) instances that, when there was no defined starter at QB (for instance), they wouldn't list anyone there.  That said, they are the most convenient and generally the most reliable source out there.  Do you know of any better sources to identify starters for a team in a given season?

 

2.  I think there is a possible distinction to be made between us and those three teams.  None of those teams found their long term answer at QB.  Houston didn't get their QB until Warren Moon joined the team circa 1986.  The best Cleveland could muster during that time was Kelly Holcomb.  Buffalo eventually traded for Drew Bledsoe, but he did not last long there as he was already in his 30s, IIRC, when the Bills traded for him.  I know it's early, but if I had to guess right now, I'd say Jacksonville has the long term answer at QB with Bortles.

 

3.You are right that nobody in our draft class will make the Pro Bowl this year, but I can see that designation to come in the future.  The plan was to sit Bortles for most if not all of this year, and you are right in the fact he is playing now is as much of an indictment of Henne as it is an endorsement of Bortles.  But in his limited time, he has played decently.  He hasn't been 1983 Marino rookie year good, but he has shown some clear signs of long term potential success.  He just needs to get through the rookie year lumps.  I think all three of the receivers have flashed big play potential.  If you can anticipate growth from rookie season to second season like Cecil Shorts, then I can anticipate all three to be at least good receivers by this stage next year, and if that's the case, the passing game -assuming decent blocking by the OL- will win match ups in 3-4 WR sets.  I think that ability will easily transcend ANY group of receivers we've had since Jimmy Smith left.  The long term potential of Linder and Bowanko is more of a question, admittedly, but at least as time goes on, the unit won't be overwhelmed with inexperience. 

 

4.  Believe me, I am cognizant of the impact of the Herschel Walker trade on the ascent of Dallas into champions.  But those guys were on the roster before the trade, which happened midway through the 1989 season (25 years ago).  My point is that despite the bad records Dallas had in 1988 and 1989, there were still players on the roster that could be a part of a more successful team, and I can see that possibility here.  Maybe not team of the decade type of success that that Dallas team had, but certainly something we can be proud of. 

Quote:Patience may be wearing a little thin.

 

That's too bad, because it's all we have.  I guess the only thing I'd like to add is that Aikman and Manning were on awful teams in their first year - and that in this day and age, you just can't win without a guy behind center that's at least pretty good.

 

At this point, there's no such thing as rebuilding.  There is only building, because we are 3 years out of .500 ball.  The pieces are being assembled, but if this is going somewhere, it will be at early 70s Steelers or early 90s Cowboys pace.

I would be just fine with Early 90s Cowboys pace.

Quote:1. Hire a coach with a proven winning record as an NFL head coach ... John Gruden, Bruce Arians, 
Andy Reid ... (those were my top 3 choices at the time).

 

2. Keep some of the better players, Knighton, Daryl Smith, Cox, Lowery. None were expensive. Ball and Miller weren't particularly downgrades, but not upgrades either. Smith and Lowery are better than what we have.


 

3. Keep Monroe, and trade down if at all possible rather than drafting Joeckel. Why draft a replacement for the one really good player on the team?


 

 

4. Sign one of the seven(!) good RTs available in free agency in 2013.

1.  Let's be fair here.  Arians was not a long time established head coach with a long proven track record of winning football as head coach.  He got his first shot in Pagano's absence.  He did well in Pagano's absence a couple of years ago, and has done well as Cards coach this year, but he didn't have that long track compared to the other two guys on your list.  As to Gruden, there is no evidence he would have come out of retirement to coach anyone, much less us, and, as I recall (and I am iffy on the details as I type this so please correct me if I am mistaken somehow) KC was Reid's first and only choice.

 

2.  You can make the argument to keep Knighton and Smith, but even if you kept EVERY guy you mentioned here, that doesn't make the difference in wins and losses in any of the first four games.

 

3.  Let's assume you do that...you have three possible to probable ramifications. 

 

A.  Monroe does not re-sign here, you trade down, and you still don't have a LT this year.  At least now you have a guy in Joeckel who, while struggling now, may yet develop as Monroe did into a decent to good, if not perpetually dominant player.   

 

B.  A trade down last year was unlikely because the talent at the top simply wasn't there to generate enough demand to get anything remotely resembling value for the pick.  The Raiders, picking one spot below us, only managed a second round pick trading down to 11.  That extra second round pick didn't make the difference between their talent depleted roster and winning.  It likely wouldn't have with us, either, even if you hired Andy Reid and traded one or both of those 2nd round picks for Alex Smith.  None of the other teams in the top five traded out.

 

C.  At the end of the day, even if you subtract Joeckel, add a second round pick, and even keep Monroe beyond last year along with the other guys in #2 above, that still doesn't make a difference in the outcome in those games.

 

4.  Besides the Washington game, RT was nowhere close to the main cause of our struggles.  Pasztor has actually played decently at RT, and now he's back.  As it stands now, Eric Winston is out of football.  

 

At the end of the day, even with all of the moves you made, we'd still likely have a losing record this year, we'd still likely have been blown out against the Colts, Skins and Chargers, because none of those solutions adequately address the secondary.  With Knighton, Smith, Cox, Lowery and Monroe all on the roster, they never generated any winning records.  

Quote:1.  You have to find a way to not have as many rookie starters playing at once. That's a recipe for disaster and you shouldn't put paying customers though basically 16 preseason games knowing the outcome will be bad. I dont get paid to figure it out but you have to get more good productive young vets in here to blend with this youth that will go out and compete. All that money in cap space and we sign dudes who are ready to retire looking for one more check and others who were reported not good(Beadles, Gerhart).


2.  When you have guys like Willie Young and Emmanuel Sanders in the building you can't let them leave. More money and theyre probably signing a contract and not getting on a plane going to other teams. Look what both of them are doing for other teams. Even players like Cliff Avril was out there for a long time two years ago and we didn't even bring him in to talk. And he's from here. Like Malabar said keep some of the players we let leave that were good on short contracts until you draft talent that's equal to or better than them.

1.  So what rookies would you replace with vets and what vets would you have signed to replace them?  You can figure Emmanuel Sanders to replace one of the WRs, but which one?  Besides experience, what does he offer the other receivers don't?  He doesn't have Lee's deep speed, and doesn't have Robinson's size and catching radius. Besides, if Shorts and Doss could stay healthy, then you would have solved the experience at WR issue without signing Sanders.  Furthermore, Sanders is thriving with arguably the GOAT at QB, an absolute stud at WR in Demariyus Thomas, another stud slot WR in Welker, and a stud TE in Julius Thomas all taking coverage away from him.  There is NFW he could have been as effective in Jacksonville in the first five weeks.  What veteran QB would you have signed to replace Bortles?  We had a veteran QB in Henne in the lineup, and the fans couldn't wait to get him out of the lineup.  You can make the case we could have gone after another C instead of Mack to replace Bowanko, but the others were seen as mediocre choices from De la Puenta to Evan Dietrich Smith, because neither the Saints nor the Packers, who both have a vested interest in protecting their QBs, chose to re-sign those guys.  Related question:  You specifically cited their status as rookies as being "a recipe for disaster."  Do you mean to say that it is an experience issue, and not a pure talent issue, with all of these rookie starters?

 

2.  I already addressed the players leaving issue so I won't address it here.  I addressed Sanders, above.  Willie Young is a player the team was after, and as a rotational guy, he would have been a decent contributor.  But let's put this in perspective.  Right now he has five sacks playing on a better team that has played with leads.    Even with his contributions to the Bears, Chicago is a middle of the pack defense right now.  Willie Young's presence on the team still didn't preclude the blowout loss to the Packers, nor did it preclude Carolina from putting up 31 on them.  With the ineptitude on offense being what it is, to say nothing of the secondary, Young wouldn't have made the difference here, either.  Besides, it isn't as if in letting Young walk, they put in rookies.  Both DE spots are manned with experienced players who know the scheme and were proven leaders on a Super Bowl team.  The one argument you can make is for Cliff Avril, but did he even pay this team a visit?  I think (as I recall, and if I am mistaken please correct me) after his experience in Detroit, he wanted to play for a contender, which is exactly why he signed with Seattle.

You can't make people trade with you to help you make your team better.  The 2013 was an overall weak draft class.  What team was going to trade up to the second slot and for who?

 

Believe it or not Offensive Linemen are safe investments in the first round.  It is very rare that they aren't serviceable as guards or backups.  The skill positions and defensive players are boom bust prospects.

Quote:You can't make people trade with you to help you make your team better.  The 2013 was an overall weak draft class.  What team was going to trade up to the second slot and for who?

 

Exactly.

Apparently the Jags coaches haven't learned anything from losing yet.

 

I keep on hoping they do though.

I feel that most fans understand that the Jaguars are in the rebuilding process (the problem that most fans have is that it appears to be never ending year after year for a decade under different Owners, GMs, HCs, etc)...

 

The fans including myself can even cope with only 4 wins or less this year, but they want to see

PROGRESS!!!

 

I am confident that Blake Bortles will continue to improve each week, but I worry about the Offensive Line.

Quote:I feel that most fans understand that the Jaguars are in the rebuilding process (the problem that most fans have is that it appears to be never ending year after year for a decade under different Owners, GMs, HCs, etc)...

 

The fans including myself can even cope with only 4 wins or less this year, but they want to see

PROGRESS!!!

 

I am confident that Blake Bortles will continue to improve each week, but I worry about the Offensive Line.

I agree with this completely.  My biggest worry along the OL at this point is Joeckel.

Quote:You can't make people trade with you to help you make your team better.  The 2013 was an overall weak draft class.  What team was going to trade up to the second slot and for who?

 

Believe it or not Offensive Linemen are safe investments in the first round.  It is very rare that they aren't serviceable as guards or backups.  The skill positions and defensive players are boom bust prospects.

 

Miami traded up to the #3 slot. I see no reason they wouldn't have made the same offer for the Jags #2 pick. I think Miami's pick plus an additional 2nd would have been more than acceptable in that scenario.


 

I understand that OL are safe 1st round picks. But Caldwell used a first round pick to replace a young guy who was 1) the best young player on the Jags and 2) as good as the guy we picked. Essentially Caldwell traded the #2 overall pick in the 2013 draft for 3rd and 5th round picks in 2014. I'd much rather have a mid 1st round pick and a mid second round pick vs. two future picks.


 

If you want to claim that the 2014 draft was so much better that we came out ahead, Caldwell could have easily found a team willing to trade several much higher 2014 picks directly for the Joeckel pick in that case.

Quote:At the end of the day, even with all of the moves you made, we'd still likely have a losing record this year, we'd still likely have been blown out against the Colts, Skins and Chargers, because none of those solutions adequately address the secondary.

 

You don't know that. That may be true if Bradley is the coach, but not if (say) Gruden or Arians is the coach. Maybe they start Bortles week 1 and he has enough experience to carry the team to victory in week 5. The extra two players we'd get for trading with Miami would also be on the team, maybe they address the secondary (hopefully they address needs somewhere). The RT I'd have signed (Andre Smith would have been my 1st choice) might allow Pasztor to fill an interior OL slot.


 

Would we have a winning record? Maybe not, but right now we're 0-5.

Quote:You don't know that. That may be true if Bradley is the coach, but not if (say) Gruden or Arians is the coach. Maybe they start Bortles week 1 and he has enough experience to carry the team to victory in week 5. The extra two players we'd get for trading with Miami would also be on the team, maybe they address the secondary (hopefully they address needs somewhere). The RT I'd have signed (Andre Smith would have been my 1st choice) might allow Pasztor to fill an interior OL slot.


 

Would we have a winning record? Maybe not, but right now we're 0-5.

Pasztor sucked at guard before they moved him outside.  (6'7" is an awkward height for a guard) 

I think Gruden is way too over hyped.

Quote:You don't know that. That may be true if Bradley is the coach, but not if (say) Gruden or Arians is the coach. Maybe they start Bortles week 1 and he has enough experience to carry the team to victory in week 5. The extra two players we'd get for trading with Miami would also be on the team, maybe they address the secondary (hopefully they address needs somewhere). The RT I'd have signed (Andre Smith would have been my 1st choice) might allow Pasztor to fill an interior OL slot.


 

Would we have a winning record? Maybe not, but right now we're 0-5.

 

1.  Do we even have Bortles with Gruden?  Gruden doesn't necessarily have a long track record developing young QBs.  Most likely, based upon his history, even if he accepted the job, he would have gone with a vet instead-most likely a journeyman.

 

2.  What extra two players from Miami?  If you are talking their first and second round pick from trading up to two (basically the Oakland trade), not only do you miss out on the stud T (Pugh hasn't been great and he is a RT, and Kyle Long is a RT/G type though he is very good), but the only defender in the second round that would be worth the selection based upon who was drafted last year would be Kiko Alonso, who may or may not have been a fit here, who may or may not have blown out his knee like he did this year, who still would not be able to compensate for the blown assignments in the secondary.

Quote:Pasztor sucked at guard before they moved him outside.  (6'7" is an awkward height for a guard) 

 

It wouldn't have worked out then. I didn't realize he was that tall.

Quote:1.  Do we even have Bortles with Gruden?  Gruden doesn't necessarily have a long track record developing young QBs.  Most likely, based upon his history, even if he accepted the job, he would have gone with a vet instead-most likely a journeyman.

 

2.  What extra two players from Miami?  If you are talking their first and second round pick from trading up to two (basically the Oakland trade), not only do you miss out on the stud T (Pugh hasn't been great and he is a RT, and Kyle Long is a RT/G type though he is very good), but the only defender in the second round that would be worth the selection based upon who was drafted last year would be Kiko Alonso, who may or may not have been a fit here, who may or may not have blown out his knee like he did this year, who still would not be able to compensate for the blown assignments in the secondary.

 

1. Caldwell (well my idealized scenario version of him) is still GM. He would have still drafted Bortles. Gruden was QB coach in Green Bay when Favre and Brunell were developed there, I think he could do a good job with Bortles.


 

2. We didn't need a stud T, we'd still have Monroe in my scenario. That's part of my difference from Caldwell's actions. From a quick look at the 2013 draft (and trying to remember my thoughts at the time) I'd probably have picked Sharrif Floyd or Eric Reid in the 1st, but there were two excellent DTs available. Eric Reid fills the FS hole. LeVeon Bell would have been a great pick in the 2nd. I claim no player evaluation expertise, but hope that Caldwell would pick the right guy at the slot, whoever that may be.

Quote:I think Gruden is way too over hyped.

 

Without a doubt. He won a Super Bowl, which you cannot take away. But his player development track record is non-existent. In Oakland, they just signed a bunch of players at the end of their peak or just passed it. They had enough of them to win the division over the post-Elway Broncos and pre-Brees/Rivers Chargers. They won with the likes of Gannon, Garner, Rice, Armstrong, Woodson, Romanowski. He developed nothing. In Tampa, he took over a team with Hall of Famers (Sapp, Brooks) and All-Pro's (Rice, McFarland, Lynch)  on defense, a capable QB and two good receivers and beat his former team in the Super Bowl. Once those players skills diminished, the team was terrible under him. And he ran off the GM that drafted/signed the players he won a Super Bowl with.

Quote:Because when a right plan is in place there is this little thing called progress.  Since last season there has been 0 of that and no evidence of this plan working. 

 

If you did not see progress in the Steelers game, I'm not sure what game you were watching.