09-04-2014, 08:06 PM
09-04-2014, 08:08 PM
Quote:I thought it was more of an uprising like in Egypt a few years ago. Not sure why we were in such a hurry to get Assad out of there to begin with or the others....as bad as Hussein, Khadafi, Assad and the Egypt guy (forget his name) were, at least there was stability in the region at that point. Better the devil you know...
That uprising in Egypt was western backed financed and mobilized
09-04-2014, 08:15 PM
Quote:I thought it was more of an uprising like in Egypt a few years ago. Not sure why we were in such a hurry to get Assad out of there to begin with or the others....as bad as Hussein, Khadafi, Assad and the Egypt guy (forget his name) were, at least there was stability in the region at that point. Better the devil you know...
That's why there were some advising the Bush administration to not purge the Iraqi military and government of Baathists, especially those not in the top ranks, along with Saddam Hussein when we invaded Iraq. They were the backbone of the government and military. Ironically, those same Baathists are now getting squeezed by ISIS unless they pledge unequivocal allegiance to their cause.
09-04-2014, 08:18 PM
In this instance, arming the rebels has helped to create the entire ISIS mess we're facing.
Their method for winning this battle is to use brutal intimidation in order to fear those who weren't tortured and murdered into submission. This group is looking to expand their caliphate, and to see it become a global movement, and there are more than enough weak minded individuals who are unwilling to stand up to them to allow that to happen, especially in a region of the world where people are poorly educated and don't have a whole lot of options. Being a soldier for Allah has a certain appeal to it if you're living hand to mouth and don't have any real skills.
What is bothersome is that this mentality has already become at least in part more global. You've got members of ISIS from around the world, including from our allied nations in Europe, and from right here in the US and the Americas. The better educated people who are becoming involved with this group are shooting to leadership positions, and they're recruiting others to expand this war.
In the end, there's no other way to deal with an enemy like this that is well funded, organized, and hellbent on expanding their influence not only in the region, but globally than to put them down. The media is all outraged today because Mr. Duck Dynasty said that you've got 2 options, convert them or kill them. While his approach wasn't exactly tactful, the point he was making is completely valid. These are not people you can negotiate with. They aren't people you can just leave alone and hope they won't hit you. They have one goal in mind, and that is to eradicate anyone who doesn't share their beliefs, and they are not going to moderate their intentions because we've backed off and let them have their way. They've got to be dealt with, and you can't use antiseptic air strikes to succeed in destroying the movement. As unappealing as it may be, someone is going to have to go in there and bring the fight to them on the ground.
What's concerning here is that this is not your father's al Qaeda that barely knew how to operate a rifle. These are more sophisticated, better funded, more tech savvy individuals who have zero value for human life as we've all seen. At the point we're at right now, someone is going to have to go in there and deal with this. What's pathetic is that all of the Arab nations are starting to coalesce around the mindset that something needs to be done. They just don't want to be the ones to do it. The US almost certainly needs to play a part, but the nations that are starting to say ISIS needs to be dealt with have more than 1 million soldiers, fully stocked air forces, and enough military equipment to only need tactical support from the US. They won't use their own forces because they almost expect us to step in and do something. We can't. But, we may have no choice when all is said and done.
ISIS is a far more dangerous group than anything we've faced before.
Their method for winning this battle is to use brutal intimidation in order to fear those who weren't tortured and murdered into submission. This group is looking to expand their caliphate, and to see it become a global movement, and there are more than enough weak minded individuals who are unwilling to stand up to them to allow that to happen, especially in a region of the world where people are poorly educated and don't have a whole lot of options. Being a soldier for Allah has a certain appeal to it if you're living hand to mouth and don't have any real skills.
What is bothersome is that this mentality has already become at least in part more global. You've got members of ISIS from around the world, including from our allied nations in Europe, and from right here in the US and the Americas. The better educated people who are becoming involved with this group are shooting to leadership positions, and they're recruiting others to expand this war.
In the end, there's no other way to deal with an enemy like this that is well funded, organized, and hellbent on expanding their influence not only in the region, but globally than to put them down. The media is all outraged today because Mr. Duck Dynasty said that you've got 2 options, convert them or kill them. While his approach wasn't exactly tactful, the point he was making is completely valid. These are not people you can negotiate with. They aren't people you can just leave alone and hope they won't hit you. They have one goal in mind, and that is to eradicate anyone who doesn't share their beliefs, and they are not going to moderate their intentions because we've backed off and let them have their way. They've got to be dealt with, and you can't use antiseptic air strikes to succeed in destroying the movement. As unappealing as it may be, someone is going to have to go in there and bring the fight to them on the ground.
What's concerning here is that this is not your father's al Qaeda that barely knew how to operate a rifle. These are more sophisticated, better funded, more tech savvy individuals who have zero value for human life as we've all seen. At the point we're at right now, someone is going to have to go in there and deal with this. What's pathetic is that all of the Arab nations are starting to coalesce around the mindset that something needs to be done. They just don't want to be the ones to do it. The US almost certainly needs to play a part, but the nations that are starting to say ISIS needs to be dealt with have more than 1 million soldiers, fully stocked air forces, and enough military equipment to only need tactical support from the US. They won't use their own forces because they almost expect us to step in and do something. We can't. But, we may have no choice when all is said and done.
ISIS is a far more dangerous group than anything we've faced before.
09-04-2014, 08:23 PM
Quote:That uprising in Egypt was western backed financed and mobilizedI don't know how much the west financed, but the administration was tacitly supportive of the Arab Spring and even worked with the Muslim Brotherhood to take control in Egypt. Once they got control, we saw what the MB really was, which was nothing more than a political extension of Hamas, a designated terrorist organization. I don't think the administration has yet to denounce the MB, and again, they only weakly supported the Egyptian military when they stepped in and took control after it became clear Morsi was not going to provide the kind of leadership that Mubarak had.
As brutal a dictator as he was, he helped to maintain the peace between Egypt and our ally, Israel. Morsi made it clear from the start that he was not going to be inclined to follow suit.
09-04-2014, 08:35 PM
Quote:I don't know how much the west financed, but the administration was tacitly supportive of the Arab Spring and even worked with the Muslim Brotherhood to take control in Egypt. Once they got control, we saw what the MB really was, which was nothing more than a political extension of Hamas, a designated terrorist organization. I don't think the administration has yet to denounce the MB, and again, they only weakly supported the Egyptian military when they stepped in and took control after it became clear Morsi was not going to provide the kind of leadership that Mubarak had.
As brutal a dictator as he was, he helped to maintain the peace between Egypt and our ally, Israel. Morsi made it clear from the start that he was not going to be inclined to follow suit.
The Muslim brotherhood had been around for a long time they didn't stand a chance at over throwing Mubarak until we decided to back them. How much is debatable but we openly backed the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt which started this whole mess we have in the Middle East.
I agree ISIS is an extreme threat so much that now more than ever we need a secure border but that's not happening.
I don't think we need ground troops in Syria and Iraq a heavy air campaign not this Ticky tax stuff Obamas doing would wipe them out.
09-04-2014, 08:35 PM
Quote:That's why there were some advising the Bush administration to not purge the Iraqi military and government of Baathists, especially those not in the top ranks, along with Saddam Hussein when we invaded Iraq. They were the backbone of the government and military. Ironically, those same Baathists are now getting squeezed by ISIS unless they pledge unequivocal allegiance to their cause.
The Bush administration wanted their puppet in there, and they got Maliki. He didn't do as he had promised by having a unified government, instead pretty much freezing all but the Shiites out. The Kurds were actually considering splitting from Iraq all together and forming their own nation, but with the whole ISIS thing (Sunnis) flaring up, it's at least got the Shiites and the Kurds sort of working together.
What has happened with ISIS is scary because they're not really feeling like they're constrained by borders. They're already active in Syria, and some reports indicate those gas attacks that were blamed on Assad may have actually been executed by ISIS in order to frame the government. Russia has been saying all along that it wasn't Assad, and they've continued to support him. Meanwhile, we were siding with the same bunch in Syria that is currently taking over Iraq.
09-04-2014, 08:39 PM
Quote:The Muslim brotherhood had been around for a long time they didn't stand a chance at over throwing Mubarak until we decided to back them. How much is debatable but we openly backed the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt which started this whole mess we have in the Middle East.
I agree ISIS is an extreme threat so much that now more than ever we need a secure border but that's not happening.
I don't think we need ground troops in Syria and Iraq a heavy air campaign not this Ticky tax stuff Obamas doing would wipe them out.
The Muslim Brotherhood is an offshoot of Hamas. They have been around for years, and didn't have the ability to do what they did in Egypt until they took advantage of the Arab spring to make their move at overthrowing Mubarak. They were absolutely bolstered by very visual support from the US when you've got the president and secretary of state at the time almost acting as cheerleaders for the movement. Many were warning that this MB movement was potentially the beginning of what was eventually going to be a move toward a global caliphate. Turns out they were right, but they were completely dismissed by the administration.
Air strikes are not going to destroy ISIS. You'll never root them out by dropping bombs or launching cruise missiles and doing drone strikes. That may soften them up, but this group has the tactical resources, and more importantly the financial resources to endure a long term air strike campaign and continue to advance. We've been dropping bombs on them for a few weeks now and it hasn't deterred them one bit. It's only emboldened them.
09-04-2014, 08:42 PM
Securing the borders would be nice, but it's not going to happen, and at this point, I am not certain it really matters. I'm convinced they're already here. What's worse is the fact that not only are they already here, but the people involved wouldn't have to worry about border security anyway because they're US citizens running cells here in the country. I think we've got big problems coming, and I'm worried that it's going to happen much sooner than anyone anticipates. With the 13th anniversary of 9/11 just a week away, it makes me wonder if they intend to do something symbolic on that date to celebrate their great victory against the evil Satan of the west.
09-04-2014, 08:42 PM
Quote:The Muslim Brotherhood is an offshoot of Hamas. They have been around for years, and didn't have the ability to do what they did in Egypt until they took advantage of the Arab spring to make their move at overthrowing Mubarak. They were absolutely bolstered by very visual support from the US when you've got the president and secretary of state at the time almost acting as cheerleaders for the movement. Many were warning that this MB movement was potentially the beginning of what was eventually going to be a move toward a global caliphate. Turns out they were right, but they were completely dismissed by the administration.The targets matter in air strikes we've been hitting shell targets but ultimately it may take ground troops that's just not something I'm real thill end about.
Air strikes are not going to destroy ISIS. You'll never root them out by dropping bombs or launching cruise missiles and doing drone strikes. That may soften them up, but this group has the tactical resources, and more importantly the financial resources to endure a long term air strike campaign and continue to advance. We've been dropping bombs on them for a few weeks now and it hasn't deterred them one bit. It's only emboldened them.
It's just frustrating knowing this was so avoidable really makes you wonder sometimes.
09-04-2014, 08:45 PM
Quote:The targets matter in air strikes we've been hitting shell targets but ultimately it may take ground troops that's just not something I'm real thill end about.Even with the best of targeting, there's no guarantee that you've accomplished the mission unless you go in and verify that with boots on the ground.
It's just frustrating now this was so avoidable really makes you wonder sometimes.
It was avoidable, but only for so long. This extremist movement has been brewing for decades. They feel this is their time to ascend to global power. We've seen this kind of thing before where a small sect bubbles beneath the surface for a while, then seizes upon an opportunity to expand their movement and then to turn it into global domination. We've fought 2 world wars over it, and I suspect we're probably looking at a potential WWIII with the current situation. I don't honestly see a feasible way to end this without going in and exterminating the whole lot of them.
I don't think this nation has the stomach for another war, which is why I think something big is going to happen soon that will change that mindset. Black flag? Who knows? Anything is possible. But, I do think the sentiment is going to have to be changed, and the surest way to get Americans to go from war weary to demanding we fight is to see our countrymen dying on our own soil. That terrifies me to no end.
09-04-2014, 08:51 PM
Quote:The Muslim Brotherhood is an offshoot of Hamas.
That is incorrect. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928, Hamas 1987. You have it backwards.
09-04-2014, 08:59 PM
Quote:That is incorrect. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928, Hamas 1987. You have it backwards.You're right. My dyslexia is kicking in.
09-05-2014, 02:12 PM
I have a feeling that if this gets nasty at home the people will take to securing the borders (whatever that may be at the time neighborhood, city, State, Federal, etc). Then rounding up those who, yes Libs... I'm going to say it, don't belong.
I'm hoping it'll be the end of the Politically Correct era. Good riddance with it.
I'm hoping it'll be the end of the Politically Correct era. Good riddance with it.
09-05-2014, 03:14 PM
Quote:I have a feeling that if this gets nasty at home the people will take to securing the borders (whatever that may be at the time neighborhood, city, State, Federal, etc). Then rounding up those who, yes Libs... I'm going to say it, don't belong.
I'm hoping it'll be the end of the Politically Correct era. Good riddance with it.
Okay, I replied, then I re-read what you wrote, and realized, I had misread it.
But I have to ask, when you say, "those who don't belong" who are you talking about specifically? Illegal aliens? Jews? Liberals? When you're that vague, people can draw all sorts of conclusions.
09-05-2014, 03:19 PM
Quote:I have a feeling that if this gets nasty at home the people will take to securing the borders (whatever that may be at the time neighborhood, city, State, Federal, etc). Then rounding up those who, yes Libs... I'm going to say it, don't belong.
I'm hoping it'll be the end of the Politically Correct era. Good riddance with it.
The opposite will happen if something happens here on the homeland you'll see a police state like never before. The fear would drive people to give up any and all liberty for the promise of protection.
09-05-2014, 10:42 PM
Quote:Okay, I replied, then I re-read what you wrote, and realized, I had misread it.It was intentionally vague as those who "belong" may be different in one area versus another. Illegal aliens should be immediately deported... I have a feeling that race will draw lines as much or more than religion.
But I have to ask, when you say, "those who don't belong" who are you talking about specifically? Illegal aliens? Jews? Liberals? When you're that vague, people can draw all sorts of conclusions.
Quote:The opposite will happen if something happens here on the homeland you'll see a police state like never before. The fear would drive people to give up any and all liberty for the promise of protection.Yeah, I fear that too but, I hope that the people have the sense to stop it. If not, I'll be the next crazy right wing psycho that has barricaded off the road to my land.
You'll see the tanks rolling up on CNN.
09-06-2014, 05:45 AM
Quote:It was intentionally vague as those who "belong" may be different in one area versus another. Illegal aliens should be immediately deported... I have a feeling that race will draw lines as much or more than religion.
Please explain. When you say "those who "belong" may be different in one area versus another..." what would be an example of that?
09-06-2014, 06:14 AM
Quote:Please explain. When you say "those who "belong" may be different in one area versus another..." what would be an example of that?
Don't see a lot of Mexicans in Minnesota.
09-06-2014, 01:35 PM
Quote:Don't see a lot of Mexicans in Minnesota.
What's your point? That if only 5% of Minnesota residents are Hispanic, they don't belong? Does that also hold true for African-Americans, who account for 5.7%?