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http://www.politico.com/story/2014/08/ro...10112.html

 

Figured we could shift the discussion over here to not derail the Ferguson thread. Dr. Paul sums up my feelings on this issue, the local police are supposed to network with the community and work towards peace keeping. When you have a police force become militarized it sets in a battle mindset both with the public and officers themselves. 

 

The police shouldn't be battling the community they are the peacemakers apart of the community. I think programs like the pentagons 1033 program are extremely dangerous and only work to push the police more apart from the local communities.

 

Unfortunately events like Ferguson, the Boston bombing, and 9/11 create an image with the public that local police forces need to be militarized, but that's what the National Guard is for. Each state has their own "military" equipped division for these unique events. under 1033 it's not the national guard getting this equipment it's local police and sherrifs. 

 
For those unaware the 1033 program passed in the 90's by congress has been used to distribute retired military equipment to local police and sheriff departments.
 
here's a link that list everything transferred in the last 2 years
 
https://www.muckrock.com/news/archives/2...gram-data/
 
A few highlights:
 
 
-MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected) vehicles (cost roughly 700k each we gave away 13,000)
-Lenco BearCat (Armored personal carrier designed for evacuations)
-Grenade Launchers (Massachusetts)
-LRAD (Long Range Acoustic Device)
-M113 (Armored Personal Carrier equipped with 1 to 2 machine guns ranging from 20mm to 5.56 and 7.62 rounds)
-GTX Boxer (Another Armored Personal Carrier)
-Peacemaker (amphibious machine gun mounted tank in Cobb County Georgia.)
-Body Armor
-M16 Fully Automatic Rifles (not your standard semi-auto fully automatic military grade M16)
-Helicopters
-Humvee's
-Stingray (Milwaukee Police) suit case sized device that acts as a mobile cell tower hacking any cells within range
-Surveillance Drones

Pictures help as well

 

 

 

 

M113

 



 

GTX Boxer

 

This is nuts... This is the kind of gear the national guard should have not local PD.

For the record, I agree with the OP. 

Quote:Pictures help as well

 

 

 

 

M113

 



 

GTX Boxer

 

 

 

I'd be interested to know where in the US this is and what context this was in.

I agree with everything, except for the 9/11 and Boston bombings comparisons.

 

Police had to step up their enforcement and protection, even with the NG assisting. 

That picture of the M113 is just a picture of the vehicle itself. The Portland police in 2009 reported they recieved that same vehicle the M113 here's a link

 

http://www.dailypaul.com/89599/militariz...land-maine

Quote:I agree with everything, except for the 9/11 and Boston bombings comparisons.

 

Police had to step up their enforcement and protection, even with the NG assisting. 

 

Either we abide by laws or we don't. The National Guard is designed for the specific purpose of dealing with terrorism on the home soil, the police are not trained nor should they be focused on these very rare incidents. Police should be focused on peacekeeping in communities.

Quote:That picture of the M113 is just a picture of the vehicle itself. The Portland police in 2009 reported they recieved that same vehicle the M113 here's a link

 

http://www.dailypaul.com/89599/militariz...land-maine

This thing would take up the entire width of the majority of streets in downtown Portland. Doesn't seem like something that would be very effective. 

 

Just saw Portland, didn't see Portland, Maine

Police departments aren't shopping for this equipment.  It's being forced on them by the feds along with funding.  Since most municipal police departments are strapped for cash, they can't turn down the money or the equipment that's being dumped on them. 

 

If you ask your average local law enforcement, they'd be the first to tell you they'd prefer to have more cops on the streets and more patrol cars than a fleet of armored vehicles and heavy equipment that serves no real purpose in domestic law enforcement. 

Quote:Police departments aren't shopping for this equipment.  It's being forced on them by the feds along with funding.  Since most municipal police departments are strapped for cash, they can't turn down the money or the equipment that's being dumped on them. 

 

If you ask your average local law enforcement, they'd be the first to tell you they'd prefer to have more cops on the streets and more patrol cars than a fleet of armored vehicles and heavy equipment that serves no real purpose in domestic law enforcement. 

 

according to everything I've read from multiple sources, they have to fill out request sheets for any and all equipment from the 1033 program.

Quote:according to everything I've read from multiple sources, they have to fill out request sheets for any and all equipment from the 1033 program.

 

Like I said, talk to local law enforcement.  It's pretty enlightening. 

Personally, I think it's a bigger issue that we have all that excess equipment in the first place.  You mention that they gave away 13,000 $700k vehicles.  But those vehicles were being unused.  It's not as if they're building them specifically for the police forces.

 

I don't think the militarization of police gives a battle mindset to either civilians or police.  Otherwise, why would it be any different with the National Guard?

 

A major problem with police is that they're often ineffective because Law Enforcement, as my father-in-law (who was an FBI Agent for a long time) says tends to draw the wrong type of people for the job.  And the police who do their job, are often criticized for doing the right thing because of public perception.

 

When law enforcement officers abuse their position -- that's when they lose the trust of their populace.  Not because of anything they carry or use.  But because of the abuses of power that are often used.  Red Tape does not help this often, because sometimes police appear incompetent because they won't do anything about a situation that they CANNOT actually do anything about.

 

Many police officers are also lack social graces.  That contributes to the lack of trust with the public.  They distrust people, they often over-react.  And these are situations they should be trained for.

 

Take for example Ferguson Missouri. The problem wasn't that the officer was driving around a tank.  It was that he was believed to have shot an unarmed man who was in the process of surrendering.

 

I know it's a fictional show, but Veronica Mars is a good example of what I'm talking about.  If you look at the corrupt Neptune Police Department, you get an idea that you can't trust police.  But it's not because of what they wield.  It's because of the actions (and lack of action) from their officers.

Quote:Personally, I think it's a bigger issue that we have all that excess equipment in the first place.  You mention that they gave away 13,000 $700k vehicles.  But those vehicles were being unused.  It's not as if they're building them specifically for the police forces.

 

I don't think the militarization of police gives a battle mindset to either civilians or police.  Otherwise, why would it be any different with the National Guard?

 

A major problem with police is that they're often ineffective because Law Enforcement, as my father-in-law (who was an FBI Agent for a long time) says tends to draw the wrong type of people for the job.  And the police who do their job, are often criticized for doing the right thing because of public perception.

 

When law enforcement officers abuse their position -- that's when they lose the trust of their populace.  Not because of anything they carry or use.  But because of the abuses of power that are often used.  Red Tape does not help this often, because sometimes police appear incompetent because they won't do anything about a situation that they CANNOT actually do anything about.

 

Many police officers are also lack social graces.  That contributes to the lack of trust with the public.  They distrust people, they often over-react.  And these are situations they should be trained for.

 

Take for example Ferguson Missouri. The problem wasn't that the officer was driving around a tank.  It was that he was believed to have shot an unarmed man who was in the process of surrendering.

 

I know it's a fictional show, but Veronica Mars is a good example of what I'm talking about.  If you look at the corrupt Neptune Police Department, you get an idea that you can't trust police.  But it's not because of what they wield.  It's because of the actions (and lack of action) from their officers.

 

Yes the excess equipment is just further proof we waste entirely to much money in the "defense department", but that's another subject.

 

As for the wrong people for the job I'm not sure, It's a tough job and I think the majority of police are good people. But when you train and police force there's a "war on drugs" and you equip them like an army not a police force, you're going to get war like behavior.

Quote:Yes the excess equipment is just further proof we waste entirely to much money in the "defense department", but that's another subject.

 

As for the wrong people for the job I'm not sure, It's a tough job and I think the majority of police are good people. But when you train and police force there's a "war on drugs" and you equip them like an army not a police force, you're going to get war like behavior.

It's also proof that we are winding down the war in Afghanistan, and have gotten out of Iraq.  Surplus equipment doesn't just evaporate when that happens.  We left a lot of it behind in Iraq, but if there were contracts already underway to manufacture additional equipment, something had to be done with that gear.  The feds are literally forcing this stuff on local law enforcement as a contingency in getting federal funding.  They don't want to be stuck with it either. 

Quote:It's also proof that we are winding down the war in Afghanistan, and have gotten out of Iraq.  Surplus equipment doesn't just evaporate when that happens.  We left a lot of it behind in Iraq, but if there were contracts already underway to manufacture additional equipment, something had to be done with that gear.  The feds are literally forcing this stuff on local law enforcement as a contingency in getting federal funding.  They don't want to be stuck with it either. 

 

Local police departments shouldn't be federally funded in the first place.

Quote:Local police departments shouldn't be federally funded in the first place.

They regularly receive grants from the federal government.  This is not something new. 

Quote:They regularly receive grants from the federal government.  This is not something new. 

 

I know it's not new but it's part of the bigger problem. Local police should be funded by the States and Counties they serve not the Federal Arm of the government.

Quote:I know it's not new but it's part of the bigger problem. Local police should be funded by the States and Counties they serve not the Federal Arm of the government.

That's not true.  They regularly coordinate with federal law enforcement, and utilize federal systems as law enforcement tools for local policing.  Local police departments do not operate in some sort of vacuum. 

Quote:That's not true.  They regularly coordinate with federal law enforcement, and utilize federal systems as law enforcement tools for local policing.  Local police departments do not operate in some sort of vacuum. 

 

The role of local police is what's a debate here. Are they an extension of the military and the federal branch or public servants working for a community? The local police department should be working as a part of the local community not an extension of the feds.

 

Policy's like a Federal "war on drugs" however create the need for federal funding to fight said war. Eliminate the "war on drugs" and you'd be amazed how much more time and funding your local police department would have to actually police communities.