With 2 new coaches starting their first year, and the other 2 relatively new, there is no reason to debate who the best ones are now. So, this will be an exercise in prognostication, but fun banter nonetheless.
If you want to rank them 1-4, that would be even more fun. I'll post mine later, but have at it.
In order:
1. Gus Bradley
2. Ken Whisenhunt
3. Chuck Pagano
4. Bill O'Brien
Colts let the better coach go
Quote:Colts let the better coach go
I could see the Colts imploding (2011 again) via Luck "injury" or whatnot, and having a terrible season, and then firing Pagano and trying to lure Harbaugh to coach Luck again, like in college.
From a non-bias standpoint I can see Gus Bradley and Ken Whisenhunt being neck-and-neck if Whisenhunt can get his quarterback.
But I also don't think Whisenhunt will ever get his quarterback.
Odds are, Pagano and Whisenhunt won't be there in 3 years to judge.
Quote:With 2 new coaches starting their first year, and the other 2 relatively new, there is no reason to debate who the best ones are now. So, this will be an exercise in prognostication, but fun banter nonetheless.
If you want to rank them 1-4, that would be even more fun. I'll post mine later, but have at it.
1 or 2. Pagano - he's not that good, but much like Dungy in Indy, he'll get credit for happening to be the guy coaching while Luck is the QB
1 or 2. Bradley - hinges on Bortles actually being good and putting the Jaguars in position to compete on even ground with Indy
3. Wisenhunt - if he gets a QB he could join the discussion among the top 2
4. O'brien - the texans roster is just good enough to be the 2003-2010 Jaguars, and he'll be the texans Del Rio. Always good enough for the management to think they're on the right track, never bad enough to actually land what every team really needs, a franchise QB.
Jags, texans, colts, titans. I really don't see the Texas being bad for long although as long as the Colts have Luck I think they'll be a playoff contender.
Quote:I could see the Colts imploding (2011 again) via Luck "injury" or whatnot, and having a terrible season, and then firing Pagano and trying to lure Harbaugh to coach Luck again, like in college.
Predicting an injury? Umm.. OK
Quote:Odds are, Pagano and Whisenhunt won't be there in 3 years to judge.
You do realize the only way Pagano goes is if something happens to Luck (AKA injury)?
Quote:1 or 2. Pagano - he's not that good, but much like Dungy in Indy, he'll get credit for happening to be the guy coaching while Luck is the QB
1 or 2. Bradley - hinges on Bortles actually being good and putting the Jaguars in position to compete on even ground with Indy
3. Wisenhunt - if he gets a QB he could join the discussion among the top 2
4. O'brien - the texans roster is just good enough to be the 2003-2010 Jaguars, and he'll be the texans Del Rio. Always good enough for the management to think they're on the right track, never bad enough to actually land what every team really needs, a franchise QB.
Another guy with an opinion without a fact.
I like the way you say "Pagano - he's not that good." You know this how? He's just happening to be coaching Luck?
And then you go on to say that Bradley will be considered good - if Bortles turns out to be the real deal. You know, what you just said about Pagano.
This is the NFL. If you get a great QB you're a genius. Which is all you're saying. Which doesn't take a genius.
Quote:From a non-bias standpoint I can see Gus Bradley and Ken Whisenhunt being neck-and-neck if Whisenhunt can get his quarterback.
But I also don't think Whisenhunt will ever get his quarterback.
Pagano's already done a good job with the club he's got now. Some people (not me mind you) believe the Colts to be the favorites to win the division again.
But there's reason to be excited in Jacksonville. Sure, his first season wasn't stellar, but I personally like the approach he's taken with the QB position. Regardless what caliber prospect came in to take the QB position, I think it's obvious there wasn't a good system to get the most out of that prospect. This time, instead of giving Frank Seifo & Jedd Fish the keys to the "Jag" let them prove they can handle the Miata first. If the QB position continues to be an embarrassment, then let's go out & get someone with a track record.
I still like the Whizz. I like what he did in Arizona, with what he had to work with, before being in Arizona caught up with him. I think his players are going to love him & they're going to run through some brick walls for him. I don't think anything about his team is going to "wow" you, but they're going to win a lot of football games.
So then there's little Bill. No reason to believe he'll do better than Crennel did in Cleveland, heck... he brought RAC in to mentor him. The draft was aaight, I don't understand the Fitzpatrick thing, and then expectations are so low for him right now & I don't see him saying or doing anything to change that & that worries me.
Quote:Another guy with an opinion without a fact.
I like the way you say "Pagano - he's not that good." You know this how? He's just happening to be coaching Luck?
And then you go on to say that Bradley will be considered good - if Bortles turns out to be the real deal. You know, what you just said about Pagano.
This is the NFL. If you get a great QB you're a genius. Which is all you're saying. Which doesn't take a genius.
Why so mad?
Give Pagano Gabbert and Henne and he's another bad coaching choice.
If Bortles is another Gabbert or Henne Bradley likely doesn't succeed here.
I'm not seeing any of the coaches in this division as a Jim Harbaugh type that actually makes the team better.
We already know Bradley didn't, and the Colts did just fine when Pagano was on leave.
Quote:Why so mad?
Give Pagano Gabbert and Henne and he's another bad coaching choice.
If Bortles is another Gabbert or Henne Bradley likely doesn't succeed here.
I'm not seeing any of the coaches in this division as a Jim Harbaugh type that actually makes the team better.
We already know Bradley didn't, and the Colts did just fine when Pagano was on leave.
Didn't mean to come off as mad. I know it's The Dead Zone, but this kind of stuff is so silly. But I chose to react, so it is what it is.
I just found it humorous that you said Pagono is not good, but offered no supporting evidence other than his team did well when he was out sick. His team has been in the playoffs his two years, you know. I hate to break it to you, but if Bortles is anything close to Luck, Bradley can take some time off as well and the Jags will be just fine. That applies to 90% of NFL coaches. Pete Carroll is a bust - until he gets a QB and great defense. Now he's a genius?
Bradley will be considered a savoir if he makes the playoffs. And of course Bradly will be praised if Bortles turns out to be good, but Pagano is just fortunate to have Luck as his QB?
You seem to be saying the only difference in Bradley and Pagano is the QB. So are you saying Bradley is not very good either?
Just silly, but I guess it is the silly season.
Quote:Didn't mean to come of as mad. I know it's The Dead Zone, but this kind of stuff is so silly. But I chose to react, so it is what it is.
I just found it humorous that you said Pagono is not good, but offered no supporting evidence other than his team did well when he was out sick. His team has been in the playoffs his two years, you know. I hate to break it to you, but if Bortles is anything close to Luck, Bradley can take some time off as well and the Jags will be just fine. That applies to 90% of NFL coaches. Pete Carroll is a bust - until he gets a QB and great defense. Now he's a genius?
Bradley will be considered a savoir if he makes the playoffs. And of course Bradly will be praised if Bortles turns out to be good, but Pagano is just fortunate to have Luck as his QB?
You seem to be saying the only difference in Bradley and Pagano is the QB. So are you saying Bradley is not very good either?
Just silly, but I guess it is the silly season.
I like a lot about Bradley. He has some consistency. We already know he's not a Jim Harbaugh type that comes in and instantly makes the team better, we saw that in 2013 when the team essentially performed on the same level as it did in 2012.
I'm just being realistic about coaching in general, none of the guys in the division will create something that will regularly beat one of the other teams without a parity at the QB position.
Like I said, if Pagano had been stuck with a complete failure of a QB like the Jaguars have had he'd have been another 3 or 4 win coach for the last couple of years talking about building something.
It's just reality that for the vast majority of teams in the league who is playing at QB is MUCH more important than who is standing on the sideline with a headset.
Quote:Pagano - he's not that good, but much like Dungy in Indy, he'll get credit for happening to be the guy coaching while Luck is the QB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Dungy
Doesn't Dungy's 1996 rookie head coaching season seem a little similar to Coach Bradley's 2013 rookie head coaching season. I think many of us would be tickled pink if Coach Bradley can turn our team around like Tony Dungy did in Tampa. Without Manning, and a perpetual losing franchise that was considered amongst the worst in NFL history.
Quote:
<i>1997 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season</i>
Assistant coaching positions
Following his NFL experience as a player, Dungy was invited to become an assistant coach for his alma mater, the University of Minnesota in 1980. After one season in charge of defensive backs, he was asked to return to the NFL, this time as a coach. He was hired as an assistant by Steelers head coach Chuck Noll, his former head coach from his playing days with the team, in1981. His work under Noll put Dungy in the Sid Gillman coaching tree.
In 1982, he was named defensive backfield coach, and was promoted in 1984 to defensive coordinator. He left the Steelers in 1989 to become the defensive backs coach for the Kansas City Chiefs, and took over the defensive coordinator position for the Minnesota Vikings under Dennis Green in 1992. While at Minnesota, Dungy's defense was ranked first in the NFL.
Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Dungy achieved his dream of being an NFL head coach when he was hired by Rich McKay to reform the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, a team well known for its lack of success, on January 22, 1996. Dungy installed his version of the Cover 2 defense with defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin with a few new wrinkles. The result was the now-famous Tampa 2, though Dungy openly admitted it was based on concepts he'd picked up from his days in Pittsburgh.
1996
<i>1996 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season</i>
Despite finishing with a 6-10 record in 1996, the Buccaneers finished strong and showed signs of developing into a winning team. After a home win versus the Raiders, the Buccaneers fell to a quick 14–0 hole to the Chargers in San Diego. Instead of folding, the team fought to a hard win, their first win on the West Coast in 15 years. Many Bucs fans believe that this was where the long-beleaguered franchise finally turned the corner. It turned out to be the only losing season Dungy would suffer as a head coach.
1997
<p style="font-size:11.818181991577148px;">In 1997, the Buccaneers started 5-0--their best start since 1979. They ultimately finished second in the NFC Central division, Tampa Bay's first winning season since 1982. In the last game played at Tampa Stadium, the Bucs defeated the Detroit Lions for only their second playoff win in franchise history. They lost the next game to the defending championGreen Bay Packers.
Quote: 1998-2001
<p style="font-size:11.818181991577148px;">While the Bucs barely missed the playoffs in 1998, they rebounded strongly in 1999 to win their first division title since 1979, only to lose to the St. Louis Rams in the NFC Championship Game. They went on to reach the playoffs again in 2000 and 2001, only to get shut out in the wild card round each time by the Philadelphia Eagles. The Bucs were hobbled by constant changes to the offensive coordinator position; QB Shaun King had to work with three different coordinators in three years. Dungy was fired on January 14, 2002 due to the club's repeated losses in the playoffs. Additionally, owner Malcolm Glazer felt Dungy's offense was too conservative. Dungy thus became the first coach in Bucs history to leave the team with a winning record.
<p style="font-size:11.818181991577148px;">The following season, the Buccaneers won Super Bowl XXXVII, their first appearance in the championship game. Though Dungy was fired the prior season and replaced with Jon Gruden, Dungy has been credited for constructing the team.
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To add to the original topic.
1) Whisenhut – I would like to base my opinion on how I felt Whisenhut finished with Arizona after losing Kurt Warner. It wouldn't be fair not to consider his entire body of work as an NFL head coach. He has already proved he can coach a team to the Superbowl level.
2A) Bradley - On coaching ability alone. Not necessarily because of the Jags W-L record. That future record will also be dependent on how well Bortles progresses at the NFL level. I believe Bradley has already proved he can win with a less talented team. Can he continue to do it? I would like to think he has what it takes. He has came from a winning background, and solid coaching tree.
2B) Pagano - I haven't seen him fail as a Coach, and not unlike Bradley it does appear the Colts players respond well to his coaching. The Colts won games the last two years that they were easily on the short end of the talent match-up. Looking back at the Colts 2012 season, is Bruce Arians a better Coach than Whisenhut? If I weren't a slight bit biased, maybe Pagano should be 2A). Either way, I don't see how either coach can be labeled better at this point when we are discussing three years in the future.
4) O'Brien – It would be hard to place him ahead of the other three choices at this point, simply because there is no body of work to use in predicting how he will, or will not fare as an NFL head coach. At least with the other three choices we have at minimum one year of work at the NFL head coaching position that we can take into consideration.
Quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Dungy
Doesn't Dungy's 1996 rookie head coaching season seem a little similar to Coach Bradley's 2013 rookie head coaching season. I think many of us would be tickled pink if Coach Bradley can turn our team around like Tony Dungy did in Tampa. Without Manning, and a perpetual losing franchise that was considered amongst the worst in NFL history.
No, it really doesn't seem very similar. The Jaguars were actually good once upon a time, and have had up and down times.
It wasn't Dungy that turned Tampa around, it was McKay's drafting that did that, so I suppose they have that in common with us. If the Jaguars turn around it will be due to Caldwell's drafting, not Bradley being able to make players play better than what their level was believed to be.
That's what a great coach is really about, somehow making all of their players play much better in spite of not being elite talents, and we didn't see that from Bradley. The best you can say about Bradley is he kept the team focused, which is good, but it'll be Bortles that decides of Bradley is successful here or not.
Quote:It wasn't Dungy that turned Tampa around, it was McKay's drafting that did that, so I suppose they have that in common with us. If the Jaguars turn around it will be due to Caldwell's drafting, not Bradley being able to make players play better than what their level was believed to be.
So what you are saying is that McKay had an eye for coaching talent as well as player talent, and that is why McKay hired Dungy? Because he was good? Dungy has the highest winning percentage of any Tampa Bay head coach. I like our GM, and our HC. With the two of them working together I feel we are going to see improved overall results. I doubt either could carry us upwards alone.
Quote:He left the Steelers in 1989 to become the defensive backs coach for the Kansas City Chiefs, and took over the defensive coordinator position for the Minnesota Vikings under Dennis Green in 1992. While at Minnesota, Dungy's defense was ranked first in the NFL.
Number one NFL ranked defense as the defensive coordinator for the Vikings. I would venture to guess that was one of the many reasons McKay hired Dungy to be Tampa's head coach. I'm not sure why you have made reference that Dungy was not that good. Dungy was promoted upwards most of his coaching career. Many experts credit Dungy directly for contributing to the team that Jon Gruden won the Superbowl with. I think you would have to nit pick cherry pick to find anything remotely close to Tony Dungy not being very good. There are franchises that still contact Dungy in hopes to lure him out of retirement. That just doesn't happen very often to not very good coaches.
Can you reference low points in Dungy's career as a coach that you are basing your opinion on? I don't mean to devalue your opinion, but I thought it odd to witness a low opinion of Dungy as a coach. It isn't a prevalent opinion amongst the majority of league personnel, or organisations that follow and report on the NFL.
Quote:So what you are saying is that McKay had an eye for coaching talent as well as player talent, and that is why McKay hired Dungy? Because he was good? Dungy has the highest winning percentage of any Tampa Bay head coach. I like our GM, and our HC. With the two of them working together I feel we are going to see improved overall results. I doubt either could carry us upwards alone.
Number one NFL ranked defense as the defensive coordinator for the Vikings. I would venture to guess that was one of the many reasons McKay hired Dungy to be Tampa's head coach. I'm not sure why you have made reference that Dungy was not that good. Dungy was promoted upwards most of his coaching career. Many experts credit Dungy directly for contributing to the team that Jon Gruden won the Superbowl with. I think you would have to nit pick cherry pick to find anything remotely close to Tony Dungy not being very good. There are franchises that still contact Dungy in hopes to lure him out of retirement. That just doesn't happen very often to not very good coaches.
Can you reference low points in Dungy's career as a coach that you are basing your opinion on? I don't mean to devalue your opinion, but I thought it odd to witness a low opinion of Dungy as a coach. It isn't a prevalent opinion amongst the majority of league personnel, or organisations that follow and report on the NFL.
Dungy was a fine coach, but he wasn't putting his teams over the top.
He was fortunate to find himself under Peyton's care but still had a career losing record in the playoffs.
All of this isn't to say he's not a good person and a pretty good coordinator, because by all accounts he is. However, as a head coach he wasn't a guy that made his team better. He was just blessed with great players throughout his career.