Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Quote:BAP "gone"... lol.

 

There would be no reason to grade or group players at all if they weren't trying to determine the better players among those still available.

 

Imagine that.

Quote:BAP "gone"... lol.

 

There would be no reason to grade or group players at all if they weren't trying to determine the better players among those still available.

You have completely missed the point by a mile.

Quote:You have completely missed the point by a mile.

 

Then what is the point?

Quote:BAP "gone"... lol.


There would be no reason to grade or group players at all if they weren't trying to determine the better players among those still available.

BAP only drafting is gone. Every team uses a combination of factors just as I and others have argued on here countless times. Need, depth of position, your own strength at a position, etc...

Quote:No...BAD drafting doesn't work.  Look at us.  Gene Smith declared he was a BAP drafter.

 

TC was a needs drafter, as was Jimmy Johnson.

 

Smith claimed to be a BAP drafter, but his picks indicate he was actually a needs guy, and a needs guy that didn't understand the value of selections going by the way he traded away picks and badly reached on guys.

 

You don't pick a punter in the third round "because I wanted a starter" unless you're drafting to fill positional needs.

Quote:Smith claimed to be a BAP drafter, but his picks indicate he was actually a needs guy, and a needs guy that didn't understand the value of selections going by the way he traded away picks and badly reached on guys.

 

You don't pick a punter in the third round "because I wanted a starter" unless you're drafting to fill positional needs.

 

Quote:Smith claimed to be a BAP drafter, but his picks indicate he was actually a needs guy, and a needs guy that didn't understand the value of selections going by the way he traded away picks and badly reached on guys.

 

You don't pick a punter in the third round "because I wanted a starter" unless you're drafting to fill positional needs.

There is no such thing as a "need" to draft a punter in the third. Good college punters are found later in the draft and free agency is full of guys trying to make a roster.

 

Smith was a self professed BAP drafter and there is absolutely no evidence that proves otherwise. Just because you make bad evaluations doesn't make you a "need" drafter.

Quote:There is no such thing as a "need" to draft a punter in the third. Good college punters are found later in the draft and free agency is full of guys trying to make a roster.


Smith was a self professed BAP drafter and there is absolutely no evidence that proves otherwise. Just because you make bad evaluations doesn't make you a "need" drafter.

Professing it and doing it are two different things.

Quote:There is no such thing as a "need" to draft a punter in the third. Good college punters are found later in the draft and free agency is full of guys trying to make a roster.

 

Smith was a self professed BAP drafter and there is absolutely no evidence that proves otherwise. Just because you make bad evaluations doesn't make you a "need" drafter.

 

His own words were that he wanted to take a starter in the third round, that's why he took a punter. That's the very essence of needs based drafting.

 

If it were BAP his remark would have been "He was the best player left in the draft" which would have been absurd and once again shown what a poor talent evaluator he is, but that wasn't what he said. He said he wanted to get a guy that would start, which means he wanted to fill a slot on the starting lineup, which means he was drafting for need instead of BAP.

 

If you can't understand the transitive logic that's fine, but it's pretty air tight evidence.

Quote:There is no such thing as a "need" to draft a punter in the third. Good college punters are found later in the draft and free agency is full of guys trying to make a roster.

 

Smith was a self professed BAP drafter and there is absolutely no evidence that proves otherwise. Just because you make bad evaluations doesn't make you a "need" drafter.

 

Exactly.

 

There is a tendency amongst BAP supporters to retrofit the "needs drafter" label on bad drafters.

 

BAP drafting does not preclude horrible drafting.

Quote:His own words were that he wanted to take a starter in the third round, that's why he took a punter. That's the very essence of needs based drafting.

 

If it were BAP his remark would have been "He was the best player left in the draft" which would have been absurd and once again shown what a poor talent evaluator he is, but that wasn't what he said. He said he wanted to get a guy that would start, which means he wanted to fill a slot on the starting lineup, which means he was drafting for need instead of BAP.

 

If you can't understand the transitive logic that's fine, but it's pretty air tight evidence.

 

But his own words-to say nothing of the words of Ketchman and the countless Gene apologists at the time-were that he was a BAP guy-your example notwithstanding.

Quote:His own words were that he wanted to take a starter in the third round, that's why he took a punter. That's the very essence of needs based drafting.

 

If it were BAP his remark would have been "He was the best player left in the draft" which would have been absurd and once again shown what a poor talent evaluator he is, but that wasn't what he said. He said he wanted to get a guy that would start, which means he wanted to fill a slot on the starting lineup, which means he was drafting for need instead of BAP.

 

If you can't understand the transitive logic that's fine, but it's pretty air tight evidence.

Actually he said he considered him a weapon. That is just overvaluing.

Quote:Exactly.

 

There is a tendency amongst BAP supporters to retrofit the "needs drafter" label on bad drafters.

 

BAP drafting does not preclude horrible drafting.

 

Okay, but it doesn't matter what he says, it matters what he does and oklahomie made a great point about what he "said" and "did".  He took a punter to get a starter.  He didn't say he took the best available player, he said he took a punter to gain a starter...  We needed a QB...  Guess what?  He traded a 2nd to move up and get one.  Lets use a little common sense and logic.  

Quote:If you can't understand the transitive logic that's fine, but it's pretty air tight evidence.

BTW, that isn't transitive logic that is called conjecture which isn't air tight evidence (actually it isn't considered evidence at all) because you are just guessing at his motive.

Quote:Okay, but it doesn't matter what he says, it matters what he does and oklahomie made a great point about what he "said" and "did".  He took a punter to get a starter.  He didn't say he took the best available player, he said he took a punter to gain a starter...  We needed a QB...  Guess what?  He traded a 2nd to move up and get one.  Lets use a little common sense and logic.  

 

Common sense and logic dictate being a BAP drafter is not mutually exclusive to trading up to get a QB.

 

You can conclude-rightly or wrongly-that a particular player is the best player on the board and conclude-rightly or wrongly-that the only way you would get that player is by trading up from your position.

Quote:Okay, but it doesn't matter what he says, it matters what he does and oklahomie made a great point about what he "said" and "did".  He took a punter to get a starter.  He didn't say he took the best available player, he said he took a punter to gain a starter...  We needed a QB...  Guess what?  He traded a 2nd to move up and get one.  Lets use a little common sense and logic.  

He called him a starter in response to a question asking him why he didn't take a rotational DT.

 

Besides, all that shows is that he overvalues the punter position. There is nothing that ties that in with a sense of need. You can make the same argument for it being a BAP pick because he considers the position a starter thus a better available player than a rotational guy.

 

He can overvalue the position which could actually make the punter the BAP on his board

Quote:...
 

He can overvalue the position which could actually make the punter the BAP on his board

 

And that gets to the heart of it. If Gabbert was capable of turning in a Russell Wilson like two year campaign, and Alualu played like Warren Sapp, and Mike Thomas became consistently productive, Gene still has a job and we're in the teams-that-go-to-the-Playoffs-every-year discussion. Whether Smith utilized BAP, Needs, Small School, Big School, or any other kind of strategy, it didn't matter because he missed on his talent evaluation/judgement.

 

He didn't get it right. The team needs someone who will.

Quote:BTW, that isn't transitive logic that is called conjecture which isn't air tight evidence (actually it isn't considered evidence at all) because you are just guessing at his motive.

 

Actually it is. Through the use of the contra-positive of what he said "I didn't take a non-punter because I didn't want someone that wasn't needed as a starter" it becomes logically clear. He didn't declare he was a needs drafter, but transitively he said he was a needs drafter by saying he drafted a guy out of need rather than graded ability.

Quote:And that gets to the heart of it. If Gabbert was able of turning in a Russell Wilson like two year campaign, and Alualu played like Warren Sapp, and Mike Thomas became consistently productive, Gene still has a job and we're in the teams-that-go-to-the-Playoffs-every-year discussion. Whether Smith utilized BAP, Needs, Small School, Big School, or any other kind of strategy, it didn't matter because he missed on his talent evaluation/judgement.

 

He didn't get it right. The team needs someone who will.

 

Predator and Deacon nail it!

 

Get the evaluations/rankings right, and the rest will take care of itself, irrespective of whether you use need or BAP.

 

Get the evaluations/rankings wrong, and it becomes a crapshoot at best, irrespective of whether you use need or BAP.

Gene Smith saying he wanted a starter implied that he felt none of the other players available were starters.  So I don't see how that precludes him from thinking that Anger was the B.A.P.  

Quote:Common sense and logic dictate being a BAP drafter is not mutually exclusive to trading up to get a QB.

 

You can conclude-rightly or wrongly-that a particular player is the best player on the board and conclude-rightly or wrongly-that the only way you would get that player is by trading up from your position.

 

Bullseye, Gene also said he wanted to stock pile picks and get value.  He did neither.  He didn't do what he said and there are many examples.