Quote:If you are lame enough to actually use a zone block scheme, er, well, that's nice. Good for you.
Real NFL teams with real offensive linemen can figure out how to inflict their will on the opponent. These go places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmtVeqMt6dc
I feel complete satisfaction.
I'm not a huge fan of zone blocking, but I can not say it has not been effective in the NFL. The 49ers won 5 Super Bowls using zone blocking. Denver won 2 Super Bowls using zone blocking. Green Bay went to three Super Bowls and won two with zone blocking.
I would take those results any day.
Quote:As a guy that has coached ZBS, and actually understands the reason for the side or "load" step....
Please enlighten us...well me.
Quote:I just got through watching lots of RB video. The dual-threat QB has killed the college football running game. Not a lot you can do with the ball running out of the shot-gun. The zone blocking stuff has offensive lines taking a side-step first, or a step back first. The offensive linemen are either being scrunched up or tossed. It's a clogged up mess to try and run from the shot-gun. The offensive lines are playing incredibly defensive.
We lack aggressiveness. Everybody lacks aggressiveness.
The only college runner I have seen that isn't simply attempting to out-speed his way to clear territory is Tulsa RB Trey Watts. Trey is the most patient running back in the draft. His plugging along running style reminds me exactly of Emmit Smith.
Is "possession" running back a valid NFL term?
If so, any team that drafts Trey should intend on using him similar to the way Dallas ran Emmit.
Quote:As a guy that has coached ZBS, and actually understands the reason for the side or "load" step, I think it's fair to say that you have no idea what you are talking about and that all you are doing is surfing for smaller school guys and those that are not talked about as much in the media.
Wow, you interpreted/ deduced all that from the other quote above? You must be souper-smart!! :ermm: :wacko:
Quote:Riggins said it best, "I'm a running back. Just get me the ball and I'll figure it out."
If playing running back is that easy, why can't all running backs gain as many yards in a season as he did?
It is important to note John Riggins played on a great team that won Super Bowls. I doubt the Redskins could do that with a bad offensive line.
Quote:I'm not a huge fan of zone blocking, but I can not say it has not been effective in the NFL. The 49ers won 5 Super Bowls using zone blocking. Denver won 2 Super Bowls using zone blocking. Green Bay went to three Super Bowls and won two with zone blocking.
I would take those results any day.
Zone blocking is a relatively new fad. It helps teams that can not think and execute well in complex situations. It's simple offense for stupid football players that can't remember a simple blocking assignment.
I am confident that great teams with great coaches teach players their assignments and what predicates adjustment.
Quote:If playing running back is that easy, why can't all running backs gain as many yards in a season as he did?
It is important to note John Riggins played on a great team that won Super Bowls. I doubt the Redskins could do that with a bad offensive line.
Joe Bugel was a great offensive line coach. Riggins meant that no matter how you draw up a play there's a defense attempting to ruin the execution of the play. If you don't have a running back with the ability to "figure it out". what you get is James Stewart running two yards to the line of scrimmage then falling down.
I joke about it, but Stewart did eventually "figure it out" and had some really decent results.
Quote:Zone blocking is a relatively new fad. It helps teams that can not think and execute well in complex situations. It's simple offense for stupid football players that can't remember a simple blocking assignment.
I am confident that great teams with great coaches teach players their assignments and what predicates adjustment.
I disagree with this assessment.
I know it has been used in the NFL at least since Walsh went to SF, so I definitely can't call it "relatively new."
Since the 49ers valued intelligence in their players, I can't say they can't think and execute well.
Again, Denver and Green Bay did well with Zone blocking, too.
Quote:I disagree with this assessment.
I know it has been used in the NFL at least since Walsh went to SF, so I definitely can't call it "relatively new."
Since the 49ers valued intelligence in their players, I can't say they can't think and execute well.
Again, Denver and Green Bay did well with Zone blocking, too.
Yeah, and they're even claiming that Lombardi employed it.
The zone blocking scheme is a red flag. If you can't be professional enough to teach or learn how to block the way a pro football team is supposed to block, there's no sense in lining up and NO WAY you are going to hit the opponent with the aggressiveness of a well-prepared offense.
What's next? Phil Jackson creating a zen-like aura to protect the ball carrier?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ_WG3d3GL8
Quote:Yeah, and they're even claiming that Lombardi employed it.
The zone blocking scheme is a red flag. If you can't be professional enough to teach or learn how to block the way a pro football team is supposed to block, there's no sense in lining up and NO WAY you are going to hit the opponent with the aggressiveness of a well-prepared offense.
What's next? Phil Jackson creating a zen-like aura to protect the ball carrier?
Well, Walsh's early 49ers teams employed the pro set and was a heavy sweep team that emphasized mobility in its linemen, especially guards.
To me, the zone blocking scheme is a sign either you have undersized linemen on your roster or you value mobility over bulk in your linemen.
Quote: Please enlighten us...well me.
I wasn't really defending a Zone Blocking Scheme as much as I was pointing out that a step to the side is not an indication of a lack of aggressiveness. The step to the side is referred to as a "load" step by line coaches and it's not exclusive to ZBS teams. I've coached it for ZBS but I've also coached it for Gap-On-Linebacker (GOL) blocking -- my personal preference for an approach -- Gap-On-Down (GOD), and Severe Angle Blocking (SAB).
What the load step does is it aligns the blocker to the playside of the Defender and sets the blocker up to deliver his punch to the side of the Defender. With this first step, the Blocker moves himself to the play and seals off the Defender with his own body. As the Defender reacts to the blockers movement, he'll step towards the blocker and into the punch. The load step is a quick, short -- about six inches -- step that loads up the blockers body so that he can deliver as much force as possible since, ostensibly, his knees are bent, his back is straight, and his head is up. His body is in the best position to deliver a blow and he's delivering it to the side of the defender.
Ironically enough, in the Lombardi YouTube clip above, there are a lot of similarities between his Packer Sweep and Gus Malzhan's Shotgun Buck Sweep shown below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCXR5cUDmrU
Malzahn, who coaches Tre Mason, pulls both Guards in his Offense and leads them around the playside in front of the runner. At the 2:07 mark of the Lombardi video, you can see where he is pulling both guards to the weakside to lead the play around the edge.
I guess my point here is that the side step is not a sign of lack of aggressiveness; it's a sign of coaches studying kinesiology and body mechanics and putting their players in the best position possible for success.
Edited a typo since I can't type good.
Quote:Zone blocking is a relatively new fad. It helps teams that can not think and execute well in complex situations. It's simple offense for stupid football players that can't remember a simple blocking assignment.
I am confident that great teams with great coaches teach players their assignments and what predicates adjustment.
You
do realize that Zone Blocking schemes require each individual blocker to identify their man before every snap, right?
And that there is a reason why Quarterbacks will yell out "Number ## is the Mike!"
Quote:Well, Walsh's early 49ers teams employed the pro set and was a heavy sweep team that emphasized mobility in its linemen, especially guards.
To me, the zone blocking scheme is a sign either you have undersized linemen on your roster or you value mobility over bulk in your linemen.
The 49ers ran the west coast offense. They pulled and trapped extremely well and used guards effectively to get to the inside out linebacker blitzes. This meant that they could feature a perceptively smaller guy, if 6' 3' 300 Lbs. can be considered small.
Quote:You do realize that Zone Blocking schemes require each individual blocker to identify their man before every snap, right?
And that there is a reason why Quarterbacks will yell out "Number ## is the Mike!"
Our quarterbacks yell something else.
Quote:I wasn't really defending a Zone Blocking Scheme as much as I was pointing out that a step to the side is an indication of a lack of aggressiveness. The step to the side is referred to as a "load" step by line coaches and it's not exclusive to ZBS teams. I've coached it for ZBS but I've also coached it for Gap - On - Linebacker (GOL) blocking -- my personal preference for an approach -- Gap- On -Down (GOD), and Severe Angle Blocking (SAB).
What the load step does is it aligns the blocker to the playside of the Defender and sets the blocker up to deliver his punch to the side of the Defender. With this first step, the Blocker moves himself to the play and seals off the Defender with his own body. As the Defender reacts to the blockers movement, he'll step towards the blocker and into the punch. The load step is a short -- about six inches -- quick step that loads up the blockers body so that he can deliver as much force as possible since, ostensibly, his knees are bent, his back is straight, and his head is up. His body is in the best position to deliver a blow and he's delivering it to the side of the defender.
Ironically enough, in the Lombardi YouTube clip above, there are a lot of similarities between his Packer Sweep and Gus Malzhan's Shotgun Buck Sweep shown below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCXR5cUDmrU
Malzahn, who coaches Tre Mason, pulls both Guards in his Offense and leads them around the playside in front of the runner. At the 2:07 mark of the Lombardi video, you can see where he is pulling both guards to the weakside to lead the play around the edge.
I guess my point here is that the side step is not a sign of lack of aggressiveness; it's a sign of coaches studying kinesiology and body mechanics and putting their players in the best position possible for success.
Look, Madden said that he attended a conference and Lombardi gave the audience eight hours on the power sweep and apologized he only covered half of it.
Stack that against zone blocking and it's clear that there's an incredible level of ignorance going on here. Fans aren't getting their money's worth.
Quote:I wasn't really defending a Zone Blocking Scheme as much as I was pointing out that a step to the side is an indication of a lack of aggressiveness. The step to the side is referred to as a "load" step by line coaches and it's not exclusive to ZBS teams. I've coached it for ZBS but I've also coached it for Gap - On - Linebacker (GOL) blocking -- my personal preference for an approach -- Gap- On -Down (GOD), and Severe Angle Blocking (SAB).
What the load step does is it aligns the blocker to the playside of the Defender and sets the blocker up to deliver his punch to the side of the Defender. With this first step, the Blocker moves himself to the play and seals off the Defender with his own body. As the Defender reacts to the blockers movement, he'll step towards the blocker and into the punch. The load step is a short -- about six inches -- quick step that loads up the blockers body so that he can deliver as much force as possible since, ostensibly, his knees are bent, his back is straight, and his head is up. His body is in the best position to deliver a blow and he's delivering it to the side of the defender.
Ironically enough, in the Lombardi YouTube clip above, there are a lot of similarities between his Packer Sweep and Gus Malzhan's Shotgun Buck Sweep shown below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCXR5cUDmrU
Malzahn, who coaches Tre Mason, pulls both Guards in his Offense and leads them around the playside in front of the runner. At the 2:07 mark of the Lombardi video, you can see where he is pulling both guards to the weakside to lead the play around the edge.
I guess my point here is that the side step is not a sign of lack of aggressiveness; it's a sign of coaches studying kinesiology and body mechanics and putting their players in the best position possible for success.
Doesn't it also facilitate down blocking as well?
NVM...I see in your explanation.
I thought the step facilitated angles/sealing off of a DL/downblocking when I saw you describe the step before your explanation.
Thanks for posting. Good to get that perspective.
I'm not doubting that Lombardi's Sweep was a dominant play at the time. But like most things that are dominant someone sat down, did the math, and figured out a way to defeat it. If they didn't, then every team in the League would still be running that play. The guy that came up with the "solution" to the Packer Sweep was Tom Landry with his "Flex" Defense.
In Landry's Defense, instead of the Defenders crashing forward and chasing Running Backs from behind, they would mirror the pulling blockers and meet them at the play squeezing down the running lane and allowing the Middle Linebacker free to roam to the play. You can read a bit about it on Landry's Wikipedia
Page under the "Great Innovator" section.
The counter attack to Landry's Defense was the Zone Block where it didn't matter if the Defenders were slanting, stunting, or pulling. The blockers simply identified their assignment and if the defender looped away from them, they moved to the next target.
Quote:You do realize that Zone Blocking schemes require each individual blocker to identify their man before every snap, right?
And that there is a reason why Quarterbacks will yell out "Number ## is the Mike!"
What does "the Mike" mean, anyway?
Quote:I'm not doubting that Lombardi's Sweep was a dominant play at the time. But like most things that are dominant someone sat down, did the math, and figured out a way to defeat it. If they didn't, then every team in the League would still be running that play. The guy that came up with the "solution" to the Packer Sweep was Tom Landry with his "Flex" Defense.
In Landry's Defense, instead of the Defenders crashing forward and chasing Running Backs from behind, they would mirror the pulling blockers and meet them at the play squeezing down the running lane and allowing the Middle Linebacker free to roam to the play. You can read a bit about it on Landry's Wikipedia Page under the "Great Innovator" section.
The counter attack to Landry's Defense was the Zone Block where it didn't matter if the Defenders were slanting, stunting, or pulling. The blockers simply identified their assignment and if the defender looped away from them, they moved to the next target.
Absolutely right.
New defenders coming into Landry's flex initially hated it because it curtailed their aggressive tendencies and called for more discipline.