Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

(08-24-2017, 12:48 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Didn't read the article, as I won't support ESPN outside of a very compelling MNF game. 

(08-24-2017, 01:00 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 12:54 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]First up, the Linder contract is fine and not a problem. He's one of the best center/guards in the league. Completely worth the contract.

Inept decision making on all levels is what got us into this mess. Bradley was awful at his job, Caldwell is awful at his job. Coughlin was brought in to fix our problems and failed in his first hurdle as head honcho. I still have faith in him due to his track record but he got his evaluation on Bortles wrong, doubled down on him with the option and has now left himself in a spot where Chad Henne is starting a regular season game.

So if TC made an error in going with Bortles for this year, would a better draft have been

4.  Watson or Mahomes
35 Cam Robinson
...

or

4.  Fournette
35.  DeShone Kizer
...

or

other
How would you have drafted differently?

(08-24-2017, 12:48 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 12:39 PM)Billycool Jag Wrote: [ -> ]At first glance, it appears to be a devastating appraisal of our FO, Caldwell in particular.  It makes the case that.....well, basically it makes the case that they don't know what the hell they're doing.  It's not just "bad drafts" or "bad free agency signings", but also challenges their thinking on some recent contract extensions, such as Hurns and Linder.

I'm not familiar enough with the nuances of free agency, etc to double-check his math, but he made a compelling (and, again, devastating) argument.

Didn't read the article, as I won't support ESPN outside of a very compelling MNF game. 

Having said that, this franchise has an identity crisis, and hiring Tom Coughlin was step 1 in resolving that crisis. I am not going to say that Marrone is not the guy, but if multiple head coaches get the same result, maybe the guys being drafted just aren't talented enough. I think the elephant in the room here is David Caldwell. I believe if we have another sub-5 win season, and it is sure looking to be one, Caldwell gets the boot and full reigns of the franchise are handed to 70 year old Tom Coughlin.

The Jags are paying guys because they are the best WE have, but that doesn't mean they are the best in the grand scheme of the NFL. I think the threat of losing the good pieces causes us to make questionable decisions.

The bottom line is, the game is won and lost in the trenches and that is, and has been our achilles heel for as long as I care to remember.

(08-24-2017, 02:00 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 12:48 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Didn't read the article, as I won't support ESPN outside of a very compelling MNF game. 

Having said that, this franchise has an identity crisis, and hiring Tom Coughlin was step 1 in resolving that crisis. I am not going to say that Marrone is not the guy, but if multiple head coaches get the same result, maybe the guys being drafted just aren't talented enough. I think the elephant in the room here is David Caldwell. I believe if we have another sub-5 win season, and it is sure looking to be one, Caldwell gets the boot and full reigns of the franchise are handed to 70 year old Tom Coughlin.

The Jags are paying guys because they are the best WE have, but that doesn't mean they are the best in the grand scheme of the NFL. I think the threat of losing the good pieces causes us to make questionable decisions.

The bottom line is, the game is won and lost in the trenches and that is, and has been our achilles heel for as long as I care to remember.

This has been said since Tom Coughlin left...We had limited success with JDR but he stepped into an already built roster with a very good defense to begin with...There's no doubt that poor drafting has set us way back especially through the Gene Smith era, and then right into the Gus era of poor coaching...

Last year the sports media finally began talking about the Jags in a positive light, and more so this year...They have even given Caldwell Kudos for the talent level he has acquired...Now if Marrone can do something with the talent we have we might become relevant again...Maybe not this year, and maybe the year after we might struggle some with a new QB, but at least we should be moving forward...


Sure, DC has done some good things and the talent level has improved (although didn't it almost have to from the depths of Gene Smith despair?)............but, the author's point, and I have no idea if he's right, is that our FO has just very recently committed some major shiny new blunders.  The fifth-year option on Bortles (clearly a mistake) and the way in which we extended Hurns and Linder, again not the decision to extend, but the way in which those extensions were handled, etc.  Mix those in with the old-news blunders (Gus, drafting Bortles in the first place, Fowler) and what are we left with? Yet another terribly incompetent GM?

I hope that's not the case, but I'll say again that DC's job probably depends on winning at least twice as many games as we won last year.

(08-24-2017, 02:00 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 12:48 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Didn't read the article, as I won't support ESPN outside of a very compelling MNF game. 

Having said that, this franchise has an identity crisis, and hiring Tom Coughlin was step 1 in resolving that crisis. I am not going to say that Marrone is not the guy, but if multiple head coaches get the same result, maybe the guys being drafted just aren't talented enough. I think the elephant in the room here is David Caldwell. I believe if we have another sub-5 win season, and it is sure looking to be one, Caldwell gets the boot and full reigns of the franchise are handed to 70 year old Tom Coughlin.

The Jags are paying guys because they are the best WE have, but that doesn't mean they are the best in the grand scheme of the NFL. I think the threat of losing the good pieces causes us to make questionable decisions.

The bottom line is, the game is won and lost in the trenches and that is, and has been our achilles heel for as long as I care to remember.

This has been said since Tom Coughlin left...We had limited success with JDR but he stepped into an already built roster with a very good defense to begin with...There's no doubt that poor drafting has set us way back especially through the Gene Smith era, and then right into the Gus era of poor coaching...

Last year the sports media finally began talking about the Jags in a positive light, and more so this year...They have even given Caldwell Kudos for the talent level he has acquired...Now if Marrone can do something with the talent we have we might become relevant again...Maybe not this year, and maybe the year after we might struggle some with a new QB, but at least we should be moving forward...

(08-24-2017, 02:13 PM)Billycool Jag Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 02:00 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]This has been said since Tom Coughlin left...We had limited success with JDR but he stepped into an already built roster with a very good defense to begin with...There's no doubt that poor drafting has set us way back especially through the Gene Smith era, and then right into the Gus era of poor coaching...

Last year the sports media finally began talking about the Jags in a positive light, and more so this year...They have even given Caldwell Kudos for the talent level he has acquired...Now if Marrone can do something with the talent we have we might become relevant again...Maybe not this year, and maybe the year after we might struggle some with a new QB, but at least we should be moving forward...


Sure, DC has done some good things and the talent level has improved (although didn't it almost have to from the depths of Gene Smith despair?)............but, the author's point, and I have no idea if he's right, is that our FO has just very recently committed some major shiny new blunders.  The fifth-year option on Bortles (clearly a mistake) and the way in which we extended Hurns and Linder, again not the decision to extend, but the way in which those extensions were handled, etc.  Mix those in with the old-news blunders (Gus, drafting Bortles in the first place, Fowler) and what are we left with? Yet another terribly incompetent GM?

I hope that's not the case, but I'll say again that DC's job probably depends on winning at least twice as many games as we won last year.

(08-24-2017, 02:30 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see it that way...From what I understand they picked up Bortles 5th year option in case he shined this year he's already signed, rather than have to use the more expensive franchise tag, plus they can still cut him with little cap impact....Linder we all knew would be extended, and Hurns is the same thing...They minimized the cap impact so they had room to resign other players plus Bortles if he was worth it, and can cut him without much damage...Pretty good idea if ya ask me...Yeah he's had some misses mostly in FA but that's the chance you take in FA...When the roster has so many holes, you really don't have much choice but to swing for the bleachers in FA and hope a few of them work out...

Caldwell isn't going anywhere any time soon...Khan continues to praise the work he's done and Coughlin and Caldwell says their system is working well...I think we will see Coughlin, Caldwell, and Marrone for at least 3 years

Did you read the article? I don't mean that in a snarky way, but the author addresses your points about whether or not it made sense to try to save a few mil' with the fifth-year on a QB we all knew was embarking upon his last chance.  He addresses the Hurns and Linder signings, once again, not in the sense of whether it was right or wrong to extend those players, but whether or not our FO understands free agency/salary cap math much at all, which if the author is correct about what our extension options were at the time for Hurns and Linder, they don't.

(08-24-2017, 01:12 PM)JagAU09 Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that our scouting staff spent a week each with both Derek Carr and Dak Prescott and still could not identify them as successful NFL quarterbacks gives me very little hope in their ability to evaluate quarterback play.

(08-24-2017, 02:42 PM)J-Mizzal Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 01:12 PM)JagAU09 Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that our scouting staff spent a week each with both Derek Carr and Dak Prescott and still could not identify them as successful NFL quarterbacks gives me very little hope in their ability to evaluate quarterback play.

We actually really liked Dak Prescott, Gus loved him at the SR. Bowl, but you have to remember Bortles was coming off a good season where you think he is gonna get better and better, Dak went in the 4th which was low even for him, I think if he was there in the 5th we would have had to trade up to get him since we didnt have a pick but prob would have pulled the trigger, remember we drafted Allen in the 6th.

You bring up another long-term problem that we've had, one that predates DC.  We simply don't draft QBs often enough, and not as often as most teams.  The position is such a devilish combination of important and rare that we should never go through more than 2-3 seasons without drafting a QB in one round or another, I don't care how good a season the incumbent QB just had. 

(08-24-2017, 02:37 PM)Billycool Jag Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 02:30 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see it that way...From what I understand they picked up Bortles 5th year option in case he shined this year he's already signed, rather than have to use the more expensive franchise tag, plus they can still cut him with little cap impact....Linder we all knew would be extended, and Hurns is the same thing...They minimized the cap impact so they had room to resign other players plus Bortles if he was worth it, and can cut him without much damage...Pretty good idea if ya ask me...Yeah he's had some misses mostly in FA but that's the chance you take in FA...When the roster has so many holes, you really don't have much choice but to swing for the bleachers in FA and hope a few of them work out...

Caldwell isn't going anywhere any time soon...Khan continues to praise the work he's done and Coughlin and Caldwell says their system is working well...I think we will see Coughlin, Caldwell, and Marrone for at least 3 years

Did you read the article? I don't mean that in a snarky way, but the author addresses your points about whether or not it made sense to try to save a few mil' with the fifth-year on a QB we all knew was embarking upon his last chance.  He addresses the Hurns and Linder signings, once again, not in the sense of whether it was right or wrong to extend those players, but whether or not our FO understands free agency/salary cap math much at all, which if the author is correct about what our extension options were at the time for Hurns and Linder, they don't.

(08-24-2017, 02:50 PM)Billycool Jag Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 02:42 PM)J-Mizzal Wrote: [ -> ]We actually really liked Dak Prescott, Gus loved him at the SR. Bowl, but you have to remember Bortles was coming off a good season where you think he is gonna get better and better, Dak went in the 4th which was low even for him, I think if he was there in the 5th we would have had to trade up to get him since we didnt have a pick but prob would have pulled the trigger, remember we drafted Allen in the 6th.

You bring up another long-term problem that we've had, one that predates DC.  We simply don't draft QBs often enough, and not as often as most teams.  The position is such a devilish combination of important and rare that we should never go through more than 2-3 seasons without drafting a QB in one round or another, I don't care how good a season the incumbent QB just had. 

(08-24-2017, 03:06 PM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]As much of a putz as I think Caldwell is, I don't think it is fair to dog on him for not taking Carr or Prescott. It is hard to say what type of success those guys would have behind our offensive line.

HOWEVER, It would be nice if maybe he learned that this game is won in the trenches and loaded up on big uglies, which would actually allow us to have success with a later round QB.

(08-24-2017, 02:58 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree I think they made a good decisions...The salary cap effect goes beyond this year and next...They have to be very careful with the way they structure contracts and save as much of a cap hit per contract...We all didn't know Bortles was going to turn to [BLEEP], but picking up the 5th year option was cheaper than a franchise tag on him if he finally remembered how to be a QB, with less of a cap hit if he didn't so cutting him would have little effect...We all have known Linder would be resigned, we all figured Hurns would be too so I don't agree that was handled poorly...

---

Agreed...Look at the Pats, they draft QBs often even with the great Tom Brady still firmly in command...They must have an incredible QBs coach because they seem to have good young QBs waiting in the wings all the time, in which they trade for high draft pick...Too many good young QBs is a good problem to have!

(08-24-2017, 03:42 PM)nate Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 02:58 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree I think they made a good decisions...The salary cap effect goes beyond this year and next...They have to be very careful with the way they structure contracts and save as much of a cap hit per contract...We all didn't know Bortles was going to turn to [BLEEP], but picking up the 5th year option was cheaper than a franchise tag on him if he finally remembered how to be a QB, with less of a cap hit if he didn't so cutting him would have little effect...We all have known Linder would be resigned, we all figured Hurns would be too so I don't agree that was handled poorly...

---

Agreed...Look at the Pats, they draft QBs often even with the great Tom Brady still firmly in command...They must have an incredible QBs coach because they seem to have good young QBs waiting in the wings all the time, in which they trade for high draft pick...Too many good young QBs is a good problem to have!

I think it'd be more accurate to say that they make others believe they have good young QB's waiting in the wings.

Have they drafted a guy since Brady that's won more than 3-4 games?

(08-24-2017, 01:37 PM)JagAU09 Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 01:30 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]To be fair... 32 teams passed on Carr once... and behind a bad O-Line he could have performed poorly.

Also.. 32 teams passed on Prescott 3 times and some a 4th time...

Once again... an awesome O-Line he went to.

Maybe that is why Coughlin didn't want to pull the trigger on QB... maybe he doesn't believe our O-Line is where it needs to be.

-shrug-

But the other 31 teams didn't have the opportunity to coach them and have them in meetings all week. We had the opportunity to see how they could learn a playbook and interact with other players behind closed doors.

(08-24-2017, 05:48 PM)JaguarKick Wrote: [ -> ]

(08-24-2017, 01:37 PM)JagAU09 Wrote: [ -> ]But the other 31 teams didn't have the opportunity to coach them and have them in meetings all week. We had the opportunity to see how they could learn a playbook and interact with other players behind closed doors.

Carr was a big risk that paid off, purely based on the offense he came from.  Somewhere, he learned to have composure under pressure, because he didn't have it in college.  If he went to a team with a worse offensive line, I think he's have been awful.

I still don't buy Prescott as a legit QB.  Dallas as a team is built perfectly for a rookie QB.  He made a ton of high percentage throws.  They never asked him to do much.  The line and Zeke hid a ton of his flaws in my opinion, and without Zeke I think he'll struggle.  If not, I'll eat my crow.