(01-30-2018, 12:26 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]So a bunch of companies are going to start manufacturing their solar panels in the US because of the 30% Tariff.
Is that bad?
It's bad in the sense that people who want to buy solar panels will have to pay 30% more for them, so either fewer solar panels get sold or the people who buy solar panels have less money to spend on other things and that hurts other unrelated businesses.
For example, suppose I was going to buy $10,000 worth of solar panels, but now I have to pay $13,000 for the same solar panels. So now I have $3,000 less in my pocket, so I decide not to go out to eat, or to the theater, and I decide to postpone fixing my roof or getting a tree surgeon to cut a tree limb. In addition, the people who make solar panels overseas are now out of work so they buy less stuff too, including things that we export to them.
It's a net negative for business in general. The tariff benefits a special interest at the expense of everyone else.
(01-31-2018, 07:17 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (01-30-2018, 12:26 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]So a bunch of companies are going to start manufacturing their solar panels in the US because of the 30% Tariff.
Is that bad?
It's bad in the sense that people who want to buy solar panels will have to pay 30% more for them, so either fewer solar panels get sold or the people who buy solar panels have less money to spend on other things and that hurts other unrelated businesses.
For example, suppose I was going to buy $10,000 worth of solar panels, but now I have to pay $13,000 for the same solar panels. So now I have $3,000 less in my pocket, so I decide not to go out to eat, or to the theater, and I decide to postpone fixing my roof or getting a tree surgeon to cut a tree limb. In addition, the people who make solar panels overseas are now out of work so they buy less stuff too, including things that we export to them.
It's a net negative for business in general. The tariff benefits a special interest at the expense of everyone else.
I may be wrong about this...
The tariff is for imported solar panels. If they are manufactured in the US there will be no 30% tariff. Or am I not understanding?
(01-31-2018, 09:11 AM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ] (01-31-2018, 07:17 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]It's bad in the sense that people who want to buy solar panels will have to pay 30% more for them, so either fewer solar panels get sold or the people who buy solar panels have less money to spend on other things and that hurts other unrelated businesses.
For example, suppose I was going to buy $10,000 worth of solar panels, but now I have to pay $13,000 for the same solar panels. So now I have $3,000 less in my pocket, so I decide not to go out to eat, or to the theater, and I decide to postpone fixing my roof or getting a tree surgeon to cut a tree limb. In addition, the people who make solar panels overseas are now out of work so they buy less stuff too, including things that we export to them.
It's a net negative for business in general. The tariff benefits a special interest at the expense of everyone else.
I may be wrong about this...
The tariff is for imported solar panels. If they are manufactured in the US there will be no 30% tariff. Or am I not understanding?
You are correct. It's a tax on imported solar panels.
(01-31-2018, 07:17 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (01-30-2018, 12:26 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]So a bunch of companies are going to start manufacturing their solar panels in the US because of the 30% Tariff.
Is that bad?
It's bad in the sense that people who want to buy solar panels will have to pay 30% more for them, so either fewer solar panels get sold or the people who buy solar panels have less money to spend on other things and that hurts other unrelated businesses.
For example, suppose I was going to buy $10,000 worth of solar panels, but now I have to pay $13,000 for the same solar panels. So now I have $3,000 less in my pocket, so I decide not to go out to eat, or to the theater, and I decide to postpone fixing my roof or getting a tree surgeon to cut a tree limb. In addition, the people who make solar panels overseas are now out of work so they buy less stuff too, including things that we export to them.
It's a net negative for business in general. The tariff benefits a special interest at the expense of everyone else.
Orrrrr, those companies find a way to reduce the price within the confines of our economic and societal norms. You know, like they always have. There are many ways for companies to improve their quality and reduce their costs that are actually ethical, what I want is to force them to quit taking shortcuts.
So it looks like Trump is actually pushing for Tariffs now. Will it actually go through?
So now Trump is saying he will put a 25% tariff on imported steel, and a 10% tariff on imported aluminum. He's basically saying foreign steel makers are not charging enough for their product. He wants everyone who uses imported steel to pay more for it, in order to protect the US steel industry. This means consumers will all wind up paying more for everything that contains steel or aluminum.
It also means that US based manufacturers that use steel or aluminum will be less competitive. Cars made in the US will cost more. So people will buy more imported cars. ( Unless he puts a tariff on imported cars.) Car manufacturers who are faced with rising costs in the US will have more incentive to move their plants overseas. So will everyone else who uses steel and aluminum in the US. More jobs leave the US as a result of the tariff on steel.
Then the steel making countries retaliate by restricting US made products. Farmers in the US are huge exporters of soybeans to China. The US is the largest soybean grower in the world. South American countries also grow lots of soybeans. China decides they want to get more soybeans from Brazil and Argentina and less from the United States.
See where this is going? You pay more for everything, and more jobs move overseas. It all backfires.
Any time you try to restrict free markets like this, there are massive unintended consequences.
(03-02-2018, 06:36 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]So now Trump is saying he will put a 25% tariff on imported steel, and a 10% tariff on imported aluminum. He's basically saying foreign steel makers are not charging enough for their product. He wants everyone who uses imported steel to pay more for it, in order to protect the US steel industry. This means consumers will all wind up paying more for everything that contains steel or aluminum.
It also means that US based manufacturers that use steel or aluminum will be less competitive. Cars made in the US will cost more. So people will buy more imported cars. ( Unless he puts a tariff on imported cars.) Car manufacturers who are faced with rising costs in the US will have more incentive to move their plants overseas. So will everyone else who uses steel and aluminum in the US. More jobs leave the US as a result of the tariff on steel.
Then the steel making countries retaliate by restricting US made products. Farmers in the US are huge exporters of soybeans to China. The US is the largest soybean grower in the world. South American countries also grow lots of soybeans. China decides they want to get more soybeans from Brazil and Argentina and less from the United States.
See where this is going? You pay more for everything, and more jobs move overseas. It all backfires.
Any time you try to restrict free markets like this, there are massive unintended consequences.
The international market is not a free market, nor should access to the American market be free. All that happens is certain players get to play by rules that give them unfair advantages against domestic competition. I admittedly don't know the details of the metals market, but my stance is the same as England's stance on American cotton in 1860, we shouldn't purchase products from an immoral or unethical source, nor permit them to set the market.
(03-02-2018, 06:36 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]So now Trump is saying he will put a 25% tariff on imported steel, and a 10% tariff on imported aluminum. He's basically saying foreign steel makers are not charging enough for their product. He wants everyone who uses imported steel to pay more for it, in order to protect the US steel industry. This means consumers will all wind up paying more for everything that contains steel or aluminum.
It also means that US based manufacturers that use steel or aluminum will be less competitive. Cars made in the US will cost more. So people will buy more imported cars. ( Unless he puts a tariff on imported cars.) Car manufacturers who are faced with rising costs in the US will have more incentive to move their plants overseas. So will everyone else who uses steel and aluminum in the US. More jobs leave the US as a result of the tariff on steel.
Then the steel making countries retaliate by restricting US made products. Farmers in the US are huge exporters of soybeans to China. The US is the largest soybean grower in the world. South American countries also grow lots of soybeans. China decides they want to get more soybeans from Brazil and Argentina and less from the United States.
See where this is going? You pay more for everything, and more jobs move overseas. It all backfires.
Any time you try to restrict free markets like this, there are massive unintended consequences.
Yep.
I'm happy with most of what Trump has done policy-wise so far. This is one case where I agree Trump has taken the wrong position (I also didn't like the spending increase, but that's more due to congress than Trump).
This is where Trump is dangerous in my opinion. Trade wars are not good and they are not easy. More Tarrifs is not a good thing.
Reciprocal tariffs seem fair to me. Other countries do it to us, and the obvious response is that it appears to work for them.
Edit: So, after looking more into it, I’m inclined to believe that this is a horrible idea.
Trump spent his whole campaign talking about China, but from what I've seen China is way down the list of countries from whom we import steel. Our allies are at the top of the list. Strange.
And the administration has done poor job of explaining why we have to go nuclear re tariffs rather than use the trade laws already on the books.
If you saw Sen. Ben Sasse on Bret Baeir's news show last night he made a good argument as to why this is a bad move.
Let’s add some Agricultural tariffs next.
(03-02-2018, 01:50 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Trump spent his whole campaign talking about China, but from what I've seen China is way down the list of countries from whom we import steel. Our allies are at the top of the list. Strange.
And the administration has done poor job of explaining why we have to go nuclear re tariffs rather than use the trade laws already on the books.
If you saw Sen. Ben Sasse on Bret Baeir's news show last night he made a good argument as to why this is a bad move.
This could just be another Trump smokescreen. The effort to discredit Mueller fizzled out, Jared's security clearance got reduced to that of the White House groundskeepers so...hey look over there, shiny!
(03-02-2018, 08:06 PM)rollerjag Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2018, 01:50 PM)Adam2012 Wrote: [ -> ]Trump spent his whole campaign talking about China, but from what I've seen China is way down the list of countries from whom we import steel. Our allies are at the top of the list. Strange.
And the administration has done poor job of explaining why we have to go nuclear re tariffs rather than use the trade laws already on the books.
If you saw Sen. Ben Sasse on Bret Baeir's news show last night he made a good argument as to why this is a bad move.
This could just be another Trump smokescreen. The effort to discredit Mueller fizzled out, Jared's security clearance got reduced to that of the White House groundskeepers so...hey look over there, shiny!
Same concept but I think the smokescreen is the fact that he pissed off his base this week with his agreement with Dianne Feinstein so he had to make amends, knowing his base cannot retain 2 topics at a time, switch the subject matter to tarrifs