Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Just broke on ESPN. No word on compensation yet!

(09-01-2018, 08:44 AM)JeepJag Wrote: [ -> ]Just broke on ESPN. No word on compensation yet!

Bears won't make it to the Superbowl, so we don't have to worry about him.  Good news, I wonder what they got in trade.

Dodged that bullet.. Seriously, he won't even make a difference in Chicago. Bears are stupid.

The Raiders are going to make out like bandits in this deal.

(09-01-2018, 08:52 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]Dodged that bullet.. Seriously, he won't even make a difference in Chicago. Bears are stupid.

The Raiders are going to make out like bandits in this deal.

I dunno if I would go that far.

Of course, things are predicated on whether they hit on Trubisky.

If they hit on Trubisky, they will have their franchise QB. 

The Bears are running a 3-4.  They need the dominant pass rushing OLB to fit that system.  Mack would certainly meet that criteria.  Pairing him with Floyd could be a boon to that defense.

That said, even adding him, I see no way they finish any better than 3rd in that division this year.

According to rapoport 2 first rounders are included in the deal, not sure about the rest of compensation.

Glad he didn’t end up a clot.

(09-01-2018, 09:15 AM)irontrooper83 Wrote: [ -> ]According to rapoport 2 first rounders are included in the deal, not sure about the rest of compensation.

I will say that at face value, the Raiders could be contenders for a few years if they take full advantage of this.

Yes, they got rid of a young, dominant pass rusher, which is typically hard to find.

But Carr could still develop into a franchise QB.  They have a good young WR in Amari Cooper and LT in the rookie Miller, which should cement their OL overall.  They will have the draft pick capital to re-stock the rest of their team.

The one caveat I would have in all of this is that Gruden traditionally has relied heavily on older veterans to stock his team.

I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

(09-01-2018, 09:21 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:15 AM)irontrooper83 Wrote: [ -> ]According to rapoport 2 first rounders are included in the deal, not sure about the rest of compensation.

I will say that at face value, the Raiders could be contenders for a few years if they take full advantage of this.

Yes, they got rid of a young, dominant pass rusher, which is typically hard to find.

But Carr could still develop into a franchise QB.  They have a good young WR in Amari Cooper and LT in the rookie Miller, which should cement their OL overall.  They will have the draft pick capital to re-stock the rest of their team.

The one caveat I would have in all of this is that Gruden traditionally has relied heavily on older veterans to stock his team.

You can find pass rushers who can give you a 10 sack season for a LOT cheaper if you know what you're doing in the draft.

Gruden will now have plenty of money to bring in vets now that he's avoided the albatross of what Mack's contract will turn into. BTW.. Oakland hasn't finished higher than 21st in the NFL on defense with Khalil Mack..  Avoiding that contract and the kings ransom they collected in the process.. Oakland just committed highway robbery. Those will be fairly high draft picks.

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

For a young, All Pro caliber pass rushing DE/OLB, you're going to pay a premium contract.

If you have any hopes of fielding a competitive team, that's the almost inevitable cost.  Pass rushers are a must have.

For me the "questionable" part of the deal are giving up the 2 first rounders.

But the Bears could have kept both first rounders and drafted pass rushers with both and still not gotten anyone as good and still in his prime as Mack.

(09-01-2018, 09:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

For a young, All Pro caliber pass rushing DE/OLB, you're going to pay a premium contract.

If you have any hopes of fielding a competitive team, that's the almost inevitable cost.  Pass rushers are a must have.

For me the "questionable" part of the deal are giving up the 2 first rounders.

But the Bears could have kept both first rounders and drafted pass rushers with both and still not gotten anyone as good and still in his prime as Mack.

You don't trade two first rounders unless it's for a franchise/possible franchise QB.. The Bears are morons.

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

Agree, there isn't any 1 player on defense I would do that for.  He will probably get a deal like Donald got and you have to give up 2 firsts, no thanks.  He is a great player though, they must feel like their team is built and he is the missing piece.  With the additions of Mack and Smith out of Georgia, the defense is gonna be nasty though, 2 great players added to a defense that was already decent

Glad he ended up in the NFC

(09-01-2018, 09:32 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:21 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I will say that at face value, the Raiders could be contenders for a few years if they take full advantage of this.

Yes, they got rid of a young, dominant pass rusher, which is typically hard to find.

But Carr could still develop into a franchise QB.  They have a good young WR in Amari Cooper and LT in the rookie Miller, which should cement their OL overall.  They will have the draft pick capital to re-stock the rest of their team.

The one caveat I would have in all of this is that Gruden traditionally has relied heavily on older veterans to stock his team.

You can find pass rushers who can give you a 10 sack season for a LOT cheaper if you know what you're doing in the draft.

Gruden will now have plenty of money to bring in vets now that he's avoided the albatross of what Mack's contract will turn into. BTW.. Oakland hasn't finished higher than 21st in the NFL on defense with Khalil Mack..  Avoiding that contract and the kings ransom they collected in the process.. Oakland just committed highway robbery. Those will be fairly high draft picks.

Operative phrase is "if you know what you're doing in the draft."

Not trying to insult the Texans, but look at the best pass rushers on your team.  Watt was a top 12 pick.  Clowney was the #1 overall pick.  Mercilus was a first round pick.  Heck, Mario Williams was the #1 overall pick.  You guys paid premium prices for pass rushers.

Heck, the Jaguars went years without quality pass rushers after Brackens retired (he was drafted in the 2nd round in 1996!).  McCray had one year with 10 sacks and he was a 7th rounder in 2004).  We swung and missed on guys like Renaldo Wynn (1997), Derrick Harvey (1st round 2008-after a trade up!), Quentin Groves (2nd round 2008-after a trade up!) Tyson Alualu (2010), Andre Branch (2nd round, 2012) and Dante Fowler (3rd overall pick, 2015).  We've paid premium prices for pass rushers and largely came up empty over the years.  There is still debate among Jaguars fans over whether Fowler is actually a good pass rusher or he is simply the product of having superior players around him.  Yes, last year, we were 2nd in the league in sacks, but of our leading pass rushers, only Ngakoue (3rd round 2016) and Fowler were actually drafted by the Jaguars.  Campbell and Jackson were free agents.  Dareus, whose primary role was that of run stopper, was acquired via trade.

Bottom line is that as a premium position, pass rushers are in high demand among NFL teams.  Whether through the draft, trades, player retention or free agency, teams have to pay a premium price for the premium players to man those positions.

(09-01-2018, 09:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

For a young, All Pro caliber pass rushing DE/OLB, you're going to pay a premium contract.

If you have any hopes of fielding a competitive team, that's the almost inevitable cost.  Pass rushers are a must have.

For me the "questionable" part of the deal are giving up the 2 first rounders.

But the Bears could have kept both first rounders and drafted pass rushers with both and still not gotten anyone as good and still in his prime as Mack.

Or they could draft 2 HOF players. It's a crapshoot.

My issue is they gave up the picks AND have to give that contract. Paying that to a Mack who you drafted 3-4 years ago is one thing. Doing all of that for one player, particularly on a team that is definitely not a pass rusher away, seems foolish long term.

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

Playing Devil's Advocate for the moment...name two Jaguars defensive first rounders over the years you would keep over Jalen Ramsey.

(09-01-2018, 10:02 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:32 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]For a young, All Pro caliber pass rushing DE/OLB, you're going to pay a premium contract.

If you have any hopes of fielding a competitive team, that's the almost inevitable cost.  Pass rushers are a must have.

For me the "questionable" part of the deal are giving up the 2 first rounders.

But the Bears could have kept both first rounders and drafted pass rushers with both and still not gotten anyone as good and still in his prime as Mack.

Or they could draft 2 HOF players. It's a crapshoot.

My issue is they gave up the picks AND have to give that contract. Paying that to a Mack who you drafted 3-4 years ago is one thing. Doing all of that for one player, particularly on a team that is definitely not a pass rusher away, seems foolish long term.

It's foolish long term if he isn't the player you envisioned.

If he does not produce at a Pro bowl level, then yes it's foolish long term.

But why is paying a big contract to a  player you drafted 3-4 years ago any more foolish than it is for a player for whom you are trading?

Even though you "know" the player you sign after previously drafting him, signing him to the new contract is no more a guarantee he will continue produce at a high level than trading for that same player or signing him as a free agent.

The Jaguars went from perpetual doormat to within 5 minutes of the Super Bowl on the strength of their defense.

The Vikings went from a team that missed the playoffs 5 out of the past 8 seasons to the NFC Championship game on the strength of their defense.

The Saints went from three straight 7-9 seasons to a last second miracle away from the NFC championship on the strength of their defense.

I can't blame the Bears for hoping for a similar turnaround (especially after drafting what they hope is a franchise QB) for signing a still in his prime All Pro caliber pass rushing OLB, to pair with their other young OLB in Floyd, rookie Roquan Smith, and NT Eddie Goldman.

They have the makings of a nasty defense there-at least a nasty front 7.

If they are going to have any hopes of overtaking Detroit and Green Bay, they have to find a way to get Stafford and Rodgers on the ground.  Cousins too, for that matter.

If they hit on this trade, Mack gives them the ability to put those guys on the ground and give them a chance to win those games.

(09-01-2018, 09:48 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:32 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]You can find pass rushers who can give you a 10 sack season for a LOT cheaper if you know what you're doing in the draft.

Gruden will now have plenty of money to bring in vets now that he's avoided the albatross of what Mack's contract will turn into. BTW.. Oakland hasn't finished higher than 21st in the NFL on defense with Khalil Mack..  Avoiding that contract and the kings ransom they collected in the process.. Oakland just committed highway robbery. Those will be fairly high draft picks.

Operative phrase is "if you know what you're doing in the draft."

Not trying to insult the Texans, but look at the best pass rushers on your team.  Watt was a top 12 pick.  Clowney was the #1 overall pick.  Mercilus was a first round pick.  Heck, Mario Williams was the #1 overall pick.  You guys paid premium prices for pass rushers.

Heck, the Jaguars went years without quality pass rushers after Brackens retired (he was drafted in the 2nd round in 1996!).  McCray had one year with 10 sacks and he was a 7th rounder in 2004).  We swung and missed on guys like Renaldo Wynn (1997), Derrick Harvey (1st round 2008-after a trade up!), Quentin Groves (2nd round 2008-after a trade up!) Tyson Alualu (2010), Andre Branch (2nd round, 2012) and Dante Fowler (3rd overall pick, 2015).  We've paid premium prices for pass rushers and largely came up empty over the years.  There is still debate among Jaguars fans over whether Fowler is actually a good pass rusher or he is simply the product of having superior players around him.  Yes, last year, we were 2nd in the league in sacks, but of our leading pass rushers, only Ngakoue (3rd round 2016) and Fowler were actually drafted by the Jaguars.  Campbell and Jackson were free agents.  Dareus, whose primary role was that of run stopper, was acquired via trade.

Bottom line is that as a premium position, pass rushers are in high demand among NFL teams.  Whether through the draft, trades, player retention or free agency, teams have to pay a premium price for the premium players to man those positions.

Mercilus was taken near the bottom of the first round.. Connor Barwin was a 2nd rounder. Watt was the 11th pick in the draft.

Point is, if you identify fits in your system and identify talent, you can find pass rushers..

Khalil Mack is a excellent player, but he's not a 2 first round picks type of player or pass rusher. You can find a double digit sack guy if you have a good staff and scheme.

Then when you throw in the Mitch Trubisky deal.. the Bears have been pissing away draft picks left and right.. now they're going to take one hell of a hit on the cap. Good luck at filling holes and building depth.

(09-01-2018, 10:03 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:24 AM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]I've heard two firsts.

If that's the case, you just gave up 2 (probably high) first round picks for one player who you now have to give the richest defensive contract in history.... that doesn't seem smart.

Playing Devil's Advocate for the moment...name two Jaguars defensive first rounders over the years you would keep over Jalen Ramsey.

Well that's a hard question. On the surface, none.

But we would be in the Raiders situation here, where we only spent one pick on the guy years ago and now he's up to be paid. I'd throw the bank at him.

Flip that around, say we had the defense we have now but no Ramsey, so adding him would take us from a good secondary to the best. I would not give up 2 firsts and then have to pay him at the same time. 

I just feel its too much for any player who isn't Brady, Rodgers, prime Peyton, etc.

(09-01-2018, 10:10 AM)TurndownforWatt Wrote: [ -> ]

(09-01-2018, 09:48 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Operative phrase is "if you know what you're doing in the draft."

Not trying to insult the Texans, but look at the best pass rushers on your team.  Watt was a top 12 pick.  Clowney was the #1 overall pick.  Mercilus was a first round pick.  Heck, Mario Williams was the #1 overall pick.  You guys paid premium prices for pass rushers.

Heck, the Jaguars went years without quality pass rushers after Brackens retired (he was drafted in the 2nd round in 1996!).  McCray had one year with 10 sacks and he was a 7th rounder in 2004).  We swung and missed on guys like Renaldo Wynn (1997), Derrick Harvey (1st round 2008-after a trade up!), Quentin Groves (2nd round 2008-after a trade up!) Tyson Alualu (2010), Andre Branch (2nd round, 2012) and Dante Fowler (3rd overall pick, 2015).  We've paid premium prices for pass rushers and largely came up empty over the years.  There is still debate among Jaguars fans over whether Fowler is actually a good pass rusher or he is simply the product of having superior players around him.  Yes, last year, we were 2nd in the league in sacks, but of our leading pass rushers, only Ngakoue (3rd round 2016) and Fowler were actually drafted by the Jaguars.  Campbell and Jackson were free agents.  Dareus, whose primary role was that of run stopper, was acquired via trade.

Bottom line is that as a premium position, pass rushers are in high demand among NFL teams.  Whether through the draft, trades, player retention or free agency, teams have to pay a premium price for the premium players to man those positions.

Mercilus was taken near the bottom of the first round.. Connor Barwin was a 2nd rounder. Watt was the 11th pick in the draft.

Point is, if you identify fits in your system and identify talent, you can find pass rushers..

Khalil Mack is a excellent player, but he's not a 2 first round picks type of player or pass rusher. You can find a double digit sack guy if you have a good staff and scheme.

Then when you throw in the Mitch Trubisky deal.. the Bears have been pissing away draft picks left and right.. now they're going to take one hell of a hit on the cap. Good luck at filling holes and building depth.

Mercilus-still a first round pick-still a premium price.
Barwin-a 2nd round pick-not quite a premium draft pick price, but a high price.  If he produced like a HOF, either you let him walk or you re-sign him to a hefty contract...like you did with J.J. Watt.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/11451...llion-deal

I submit Mack is more than just "a ten digit sack guy."

He's made first team All Pro twice and three Pro bowls in his four year career.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/p...ckKh00.htm

That indicates more than a one dimensional guy.

Pass rushers can be found in the mid rounds...but not everyone finds them-for various reasons.

I have my doubts about Trubisky's viability as a QB.  But if they hit on Mack, that font seven will be nasty for years.  They will need that if they wish to contend in that division.