Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

From the start I had a problem with the way Caldwell came in and "cleaned house" after 2011. Yes the team needed to be rebuilt but his theory of tear it down to foundation and rebuild was flawed from the start. The problem with blowing a roster up and accepting the next 2-3 years are strictly rebuilding years is two fold. For starters you build a culture of accepting a losing record, that was part of Gus Bradley's problem of just trusting the process. Secondly and even more importantly you have to hit 100% on drafts and free agent acquisitions, there is no margin for error. 

After 2011 we had a decent secondary, we had Mathis, Cox, Lowery, and Landry. We had enough of a stop gap at LT in Monroe and we had role players at skill positions in Sims-Walker, Shorts, and Thomas. We had Daryl Smith and Poz at LB but a major whole on the outside, we had needs for pass rushers, we needed to find our QB and we needed help on the o-line. Finally we had an over the hill MJD and we needed a RB to replace him. So in come Caldwell and we gut the secondary, the one area we could've waited to upgrade and cut our starting LT again another area we could've waited to upgrade all in the name of this total rebuild. 

I'm in the Caldwell has to go camp, but I hope the next guy up doesn't take the nuclear option Caldwell arrogantly did in 2011. We have some good to above average players worth keeping and some that are good enough to fill in until we find upgrades. 

We shouldn't accept ever again that we need to lose in order to win, that we need to gut a roster in order to rebuild it, it just doesn't work. No I'm not expecting miracles and no we won't go from where we are now to back to contending over night but we should see gradual improvement each year. 

In the end Caldwell's arrogance is why he is the worse GM we've had as a franchise to date.

Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

(12-07-2018, 07:44 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]From the start I had a problem with the way Caldwell came in and "cleaned house" after 2011. Yes the team needed to be rebuilt but his theory of tear it down to foundation and rebuild was flawed from the start. The problem with blowing a roster up and accepting the next 2-3 years are strictly rebuilding years is two fold. For starters you build a culture of accepting a losing record, that was part of Gus Bradley's problem of just trusting the process. Secondly and even more importantly you have to hit 100% on drafts and free agent acquisitions, there is no margin for error. 

After 2011 we had a decent secondary, we had Mathis, Cox, Lowery, and Landry. We had enough of a stop gap at LT in Monroe and we had role players at skill positions in Sims-Walker, Shorts, and Thomas. We had Daryl Smith and Poz at LB but a major whole on the outside, we had needs for pass rushers, we needed to find our QB and we needed help on the o-line. Finally we had an over the hill MJD and we needed a RB to replace him. So in come Caldwell and we gut the secondary, the one area we could've waited to upgrade and cut our starting LT again another area we could've waited to upgrade all in the name of this total rebuild. 

I'm in the Caldwell has to go camp, but I hope the next guy up doesn't take the nuclear option Caldwell arrogantly did in 2011. We have some good to above average players worth keeping and some that are good enough to fill in until we find upgrades. 

We shouldn't accept ever again that we need to lose in order to win, that we need to gut a roster in order to rebuild it, it just doesn't work. No I'm not expecting miracles and no we won't go from where we are now to back to contending over night but we should see gradual improvement each year. 

In the end Caldwell's arrogance is why he is the worse GM we've had as a franchise to date.

Between Shack Harris, Gene Smith, and Dave Caldwell we've had 15 years of incompetence in the front office.  

Here's to hoping for the best again this offseason.

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)navyjagfan Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:44 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]From the start I had a problem with the way Caldwell came in and "cleaned house" after 2011. Yes the team needed to be rebuilt but his theory of tear it down to foundation and rebuild was flawed from the start. The problem with blowing a roster up and accepting the next 2-3 years are strictly rebuilding years is two fold. For starters you build a culture of accepting a losing record, that was part of Gus Bradley's problem of just trusting the process. Secondly and even more importantly you have to hit 100% on drafts and free agent acquisitions, there is no margin for error. 

After 2011 we had a decent secondary, we had Mathis, Cox, Lowery, and Landry. We had enough of a stop gap at LT in Monroe and we had role players at skill positions in Sims-Walker, Shorts, and Thomas. We had Daryl Smith and Poz at LB but a major whole on the outside, we had needs for pass rushers, we needed to find our QB and we needed help on the o-line. Finally we had an over the hill MJD and we needed a RB to replace him. So in come Caldwell and we gut the secondary, the one area we could've waited to upgrade and cut our starting LT again another area we could've waited to upgrade all in the name of this total rebuild. 

I'm in the Caldwell has to go camp, but I hope the next guy up doesn't take the nuclear option Caldwell arrogantly did in 2011. We have some good to above average players worth keeping and some that are good enough to fill in until we find upgrades. 

We shouldn't accept ever again that we need to lose in order to win, that we need to gut a roster in order to rebuild it, it just doesn't work. No I'm not expecting miracles and no we won't go from where we are now to back to contending over night but we should see gradual improvement each year. 

In the end Caldwell's arrogance is why he is the worse GM we've had as a franchise to date.

Between Shack Harris, Gene Smith, and Dave Caldwell we've had 15 years of incompetence in the front office.  

Here's to hoping for the best again this offseason.

I wouldn't lump Dave Caldwell in with Harris and Smith. That's bad.

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

Yeah.

If Dave had sought another QB  (even just an insurance guy) after Blake's 2016 season I'd feel a lot better about him. 
I don't even hate taking the chance on Blake. I hate that they needed 5 years to figure him out. 
Outside of that and the O-Line neglect - I think Dave did pretty well. 

Everything is up in the air now though. No telling how they approach fixing this mess. 

I still won't call it a "rebuild."  They still need the same 4 pieces they never addressed last season -- but now they've got to swap out a few more in addition to those and get them all into a new playbook. 

That's not really a rebuild as much as it's just trying to finish a half [BLEEP] job.

(12-07-2018, 07:53 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

Yeah.

If Dave had sought another QB  (even just an insurance guy) after Blake's 2016 season I'd feel a lot better about him. 
I don't even hate taking the chance on Blake. I hate that they needed 5 years to figure him out. 
Outside of that and the O-Line neglect - I think Dave did pretty well. 

Everything is up in the air now though. No telling how they approach fixing this mess. 

I still won't call it a "rebuild."  They still need the same 4 pieces they never addressed last season -- but now they've got to swap out a few more in addition to those and get them all into a new playbook. 

That's not really a rebuild as much as it's just trying to finish a half [BLEEP] job.

We're looking at a 3-13 year after 5 years I'd call this a rebuild

(12-07-2018, 08:18 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:53 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah.

If Dave had sought another QB  (even just an insurance guy) after Blake's 2016 season I'd feel a lot better about him. 
I don't even hate taking the chance on Blake. I hate that they needed 5 years to figure him out. 
Outside of that and the O-Line neglect - I think Dave did pretty well. 

Everything is up in the air now though. No telling how they approach fixing this mess. 

I still won't call it a "rebuild."  They still need the same 4 pieces they never addressed last season -- but now they've got to swap out a few more in addition to those and get them all into a new playbook. 

That's not really a rebuild as much as it's just trying to finish a half [BLEEP] job.

We're looking at a 3-13 year after 5 years I'd call this a rebuild

Look who’s been the QB for 5 years. There’s a reason many analysts think the Jags have the most talented roster.... outside of QB.

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

You missed the point. If we don't cut Monroe year one were not forced into taking Joeckel with the 2nd overall pick. It all has ripple effects, the other part Caldwell is wrong on is trying to build a team and then find a QB to fit that team. We should find the QB and then build the team around him.

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(12-07-2018, 08:21 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 08:18 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]We're looking at a 3-13 year after 5 years I'd call this a rebuild

Look who’s been the QB for 5 years. There’s a reason many analysts think the Jags have the most talented roster.... outside of QB.

Lol no one thinks we have the most talent roster outside of QB anymore. You really think we have a talented WR core? Offensive line? Heck I'll argue we don't even have the most talented defense.

(12-07-2018, 08:22 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

You missed the point. If we don't cut Monroe year one were not forced into taking Joeckel with the 2nd overall pick. It all has ripple effects, the other part Caldwell is wrong on is trying to build a team and then find a QB to fit that team. We should find the QB and then build the team around him.

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(12-07-2018, 08:21 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Look who’s been the QB for 5 years. There’s a reason many analysts think the Jags have the most talented roster.... outside of QB.

Lol no one thinks we have the most talent roster outside of QB anymore. You really think we have a talented WR core? Offensive line? Heck I'll argue we don't even have the most talented defense.

Monroe and Luke played together on 2013. They didn’t cut Monroe and then select Luke.

They played together in 4 games and then he was traded. 

Bucky Brooks repeatedly said this roster is very talented. Whether you believe so or not.

(12-07-2018, 08:22 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

...

You missed the point. If we don't cut Monroe year one were not forced into taking Joeckel with the 2nd overall pick. It all has ripple effects, the other part Caldwell is wrong on is trying to build a team and then find a QB to fit that team. We should find the QB and then build the team around him.

 Nah. Monroe was a wise cut. (trade actually) Wish they'd have been that smart about moving on from Blake. 

The Joeckel thing was unfortunate because he was projected to be a stud by nearly everyone under the sun and he was a total bust. 

Trading away a fading mediocre left tackle didn't make Joeckel bust. Those are just two things that happened chronologically. 

Caldwell would have been fine if did something like taking Ansah or X. Rhodes in the draft - and landed a FA tackle like King Dunlap after parting with Monroe  -- but he took the consensus best tackle available in the draft and the kid busted. 
Monroe is an afterthought in all of that. Getting rid of him isn't the issue.  Dave just picked a bad tackle despite it being a homerun pick in nearly everyone's mind at the time.

The issues with our coaching staff and front office are more of a problem than our roster.

Wash has taken the defense as far as he can take it. We need a progressive OC to keep up with the league. Tom was drunk at the wheels and Caldwell's rumoured replacement (Chris Polian ) was god awful in Indy. I have zero faith in Toms player evaluation.

(12-07-2018, 08:18 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:53 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah.

If Dave had sought another QB  (even just an insurance guy) after Blake's 2016 season I'd feel a lot better about him. 
I don't even hate taking the chance on Blake. I hate that they needed 5 years to figure him out. 
Outside of that and the O-Line neglect - I think Dave did pretty well. 

Everything is up in the air now though. No telling how they approach fixing this mess. 

I still won't call it a "rebuild."  They still need the same 4 pieces they never addressed last season -- but now they've got to swap out a few more in addition to those and get them all into a new playbook. 

That's not really a rebuild as much as it's just trying to finish a half [BLEEP] job.

We're looking at a 3-13 year after 5 years I'd call this a rebuild

Why?  How many players are they going to send packing? 

If they are rebuilding - then they are going to replace lots of players, right? 

I'd wager they only have three different starters on defense next year - if that. That ain't a rebuild. 

Offense is a different story - and we all knew we were short 3 or 4 viable starters there at the beginning of the year anyway.

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

Keep in mind that the year we drafted Blake, no QB in that class has had much success. It was indeed a bad QB class. Our biggest offense wasn't that we drafted Blake, it was that we didn't recognize 2014 was a bad year to draft any QB. We're in desperate shape for a QB right now, but if none of the Juniors declare, this class looks pretty meh. I'm reserving judgement until I see who declares and who returns to school. The only thing worse than not drafting a QB, is drafting another Blake Bortles and setting us back a few years.

(12-07-2018, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The issues with our coaching staff and front office are more of a problem than our roster.  

Wash has taken the defense as far as he can take it. We need a  progressive OC to keep up with the league.  Tom was drunk at the wheels and Caldwell's rumoured replacement (Chris Polian ) was god awful in Indy. I have zero faith in Toms player evaluation.

I'd have disagreed with some of this 7 weeks ago.  

I can't really do that now. The coaches deserve blame. TC and Caldwell deserve blame for not making changes before the wheels came completely off the railcar.

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(12-07-2018, 08:43 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Caldwell’s biggest mistake was choosing Blake as his franchise guy.

Caldwell did and should have blown it up. Only guy I wish stayed was Daryl Smith. The rest of those guys didn’t really do anything on another team or even play on another team. Exactly how many of the guys he cut played well on another team?

The next guy isn’t going to cut Yan, Telvin, Jack, Ramsey, Bouye, Harrison, Bryan....

Keep in mind that the year we drafted Blake, no QB in that class has had much success. 

(12-07-2018, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The issues with our coaching staff and front office are more of a problem than our roster.  

Wash has taken the defense as far as he can take it. We need a  progressive OC to keep up with the league.  Tom was drunk at the wheels and Caldwell's rumoured replacement (Chris Polian ) was god awful in Indy. I have zero faith in Toms player evaluation.

Agreed 110%.

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(12-07-2018, 08:45 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The issues with our coaching staff and front office are more of a problem than our roster.  

Wash has taken the defense as far as he can take it. We need a  progressive OC to keep up with the league.  Tom was drunk at the wheels and Caldwell's rumoured replacement (Chris Polian ) was god awful in Indy. I have zero faith in Toms player evaluation.

I'd have disagreed with some of this 7 weeks ago.  

I can't really do that now. The coaches deserve blame. TC and Caldwell deserve blame for not making changes before the wheels came completely off the railcar.

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(12-07-2018, 08:43 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Keep in mind that the year we drafted Blake, no QB in that class has had much success. 

Really? He had one good stretch of 5 games in 2017 as a starter and began this year with less than 60% completions and 5 TD's to 3 INT's, before going on IR. If you consider him a long term success, you have very low standards. At best, he is an unknown.

(12-07-2018, 08:45 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 08:39 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The issues with our coaching staff and front office are more of a problem than our roster.  

Wash has taken the defense as far as he can take it. We need a  progressive OC to keep up with the league.  Tom was drunk at the wheels and Caldwell's rumoured replacement (Chris Polian ) was god awful in Indy. I have zero faith in Toms player evaluation.

I'd have disagreed with some of this 7 weeks ago.  

I can't really do that now. The coaches deserve blame. TC and Caldwell deserve blame for not making changes before the wheels came completely off the railcar.

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(12-07-2018, 08:43 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]Keep in mind that the year we drafted Blake, no QB in that class has had much success. 

And now 2019 is going to be a must win year for Marrone despite him either having a has-been or rookie at QB and potentially still having Wash limiting the defense.  

Would be a serious testament to his coaching ability if he did well.  

Also, what does Shad do with Tom if we flounder next year too? Presumably let him hire his own coach but then what??

(12-07-2018, 09:02 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]And now 2019 is going to be a must win year for Marrone despite him either having a has-been or rookie at QB and potentially still having Wash limiting the defense.  

Would be a serious testament to his coaching ability if he did well.  

Also, what does Shad do with Tom if we flounder next year too? Presumably let him hire his own coach but then what??

No.  We cannot have more of the same in 2019.  No.  This staff has to go.  All of them.  I'd keep Decamillis and McCardell as legacies IF the new HC agreed.  Everyone else has to go.  Give everyone their walking papers on Black Monday.

I don't know what to do about the GM side of things.  Caldwell isn't terrible, but he isn't good, either.  We know Coughlin's no talent evaluator.

Sign a vet QB.  Draft a rookie. Keep Kessler as a backup.

This EricC85 guy has such a blind stupid hate for Caldwell that he actually believes Gene Smith's final year's team has far more talent than this current team....
Just let that sink in for a minute... He actually believes that... 

I have no doubts that he's a family member of some sort of Gene.

(12-07-2018, 11:03 PM)I am Yoda Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-07-2018, 09:02 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]And now 2019 is going to be a must win year for Marrone despite him either having a has-been or rookie at QB and potentially still having Wash limiting the defense.  

Would be a serious testament to his coaching ability if he did well.  

Also, what does Shad do with Tom if we flounder next year too? Presumably let him hire his own coach but then what??

No.  We cannot have more of the same in 2019.  No.  This staff has to go.  All of them.  I'd keep Decamillis and McCardell as legacies IF the new HC agreed.  Everyone else has to go.  Give everyone their walking papers on Black Monday.

I don't know what to do about the GM side of things.  Caldwell isn't terrible, but he isn't good, either.  We know Coughlin's no talent evaluator.

Sign a vet QB.  Draft a rookie. Keep Kessler as a backup.

Caldwell is definitely terrible

(12-07-2018, 11:22 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]This EricC85 guy has such a blind stupid hate for Caldwell that he actually believes Gene Smith's final year's team has far more talent than this current team....
Just let that sink in for a minute... He actually believes that... 

I have no doubts that he's a family member of some sort of Gene.

I don't really think Caldwell is worse than Gene, but it's not unfair to compare them. Gene's teams have only won a few less games than Caldwell's have in two full seasons more. And Gene wasn't allowed to spend an NFL record amount of FA $$$, and he also only got one top 5 pick...and he had to trade up for it...and that player was balling before he nuked himself.

Dave has been maybe a tiny bit better despite having a ton more ammo and two more seasons to build.