I don't know if this was already brought up in another thread but here we go......
I think the failures of this franchise for the last what 10 years or so has been player development. I know we could have drafted this guy and that guy and hindsight is 20/20. But how much faith do you or did you have in the coaching staff of today and years past developing that player to the high caliber of where they are now?
Jack Del Rio
Mike Mularkey
Gus Bradley
Doug Marrone
(Didn't include Mel Tucker. He only coached 5 games)
Most recently, a lot of fans are upset we didn't get Mahomes but he is benefiting from Reid and the abundance of talent they have there. Who's to say he would have the same success here with this coaching staff and the lack of talent here.
Your thoughts......
Coaching and player development have been factors in the number of losing seasons. This has really only been significant since the Khan era began, though.
Prior to that it was much more about lack of talent. The Gene Smith years gave the coaches very little to work with.
(12-21-2018, 10:03 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching and player development have been factors in the number of losing seasons. This has really only been significant since the Khan era began, though.
Prior to that it was much more about lack of talent. The Gene Smith years gave the coaches very little to work with.
True but if we drafted any of the QBs during the Bradley era, do you really think he would have been any good?
Do you really think the development would have been there?
(12-21-2018, 10:40 AM)Jay Carter 904 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 10:03 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching and player development have been factors in the number of losing seasons. This has really only been significant since the Khan era began, though.
Prior to that it was much more about lack of talent. The Gene Smith years gave the coaches very little to work with.
True but if we drafted any of the QBs during the Bradley era, do you really think he would have been any good?
Do you really think the development would have been there?
Depends on which QB they had taken and when.
They'd have improved their record if they'd had a chance at Cam Newton or Andrew Luck instead of Blaine Gabbert.
But the 2012-2013 Jags were so depleted of talent those QBs wouldn't have changed their fortunes dramatically. A few more wins probably.
As far as development is concerned - I think it's more about OCs scheming around their players than offseason drills and position coaches "developing" players. Though that
is a factor as well.
We simply have no idea how much of Gabbert's failure was poor coaching/development and how much of it was his own inability as a quarterback. We can only speculate which is more to blame. If at all.
It's a similar thing with Blake - but we've seen so much of Blake at this point we have a more complete understanding of his innate shortcomings as a passer.
Hacket never made any adjustments at half time. and if we had the lead he did not continue doing what got us the lead he sat on it it. That is the main problem with theses coaches. They do not have enough NFL experince to know how to adjust to the other team during the game. On both sides def and offense could not adjust to other teams adjustments. That is coaching 101 and they failed.
At this point, I have zero confidence in any of our coaching staff. The only one that gets somewhat of a pass is Kahn, because he is the owner, and just makes informed (probably uninformed) decisions about where to throw the money. I'm really starting to wonder what advantage is it to have brought Coughlin back. Last year's success looks more like luck. Seeing Coughlin getting all excited because we won our 4th game of the season a few weeks ago was sickening. We are currently 31st in power rankings. Pathetic. Someone is not doing their job. Marrone likes to take the blame on himself, and he's right, he and his coaches are to blame for not developing the players.
(12-21-2018, 10:40 AM)Jay Carter 904 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 10:03 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching and player development have been factors in the number of losing seasons. This has really only been significant since the Khan era began, though.
Prior to that it was much more about lack of talent. The Gene Smith years gave the coaches very little to work with.
True but if we drafted any of the QBs during the Bradley era, do you really think he would have been any good?
Do you really think the development would have been there?
No, Bradley sucked.
(12-21-2018, 11:19 AM)Flagler Jagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]At this point, I have zero confidence in any of our coaching staff. The only one that gets somewhat of a pass is Kahn, because he is the owner, and just makes informed (probably uninformed) decisions about where to throw the money. I'm really starting to wonder what advantage is it to have brought Coughlin back. Last year's success looks more like luck. Seeing Coughlin getting all excited because we won our 4th game of the season a few weeks ago was sickening. We are currently 31st in power rankings. Pathetic. Someone is not doing their job. Marrone likes to take the blame on himself, and he's right, he and his coaches are to blame for not developing the players.
Not luck last year.
Most of the Offensive starters were injuried early this year.
Most teams if not all would have the same issue.
(12-21-2018, 11:19 AM)Flagler Jagsfan Wrote: [ -> ]At this point, I have zero confidence in any of our coaching staff. The only one that gets somewhat of a pass is Kahn, because he is the owner, and just makes informed (probably uninformed) decisions about where to throw the money. I'm really starting to wonder what advantage is it to have brought Coughlin back. Last year's success looks more like luck. Seeing Coughlin getting all excited because we won our 4th game of the season a few weeks ago was sickening. We are currently 31st in power rankings. Pathetic. Someone is not doing their job. Marrone likes to take the blame on himself, and he's right, he and his coaches are to blame for not developing the players.
(12-21-2018, 11:36 AM)old_man Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 10:40 AM)Jay Carter 904 Wrote: [ -> ]True but if we drafted any of the QBs during the Bradley era, do you really think he would have been any good?
Do you really think the development would have been there?
No, Bradley sucked.
I agree.
I was good with Marrone until I started to see something. Soon as the starters went down, we were stuck. There was no adjustments. Every player that makes the league is good at something. Not one time this season have I seen us adjust to the skillset of our players.
My biggest example is Blake. You knew he started to struggle with the lack of talent around him. Do something that helps him out of that slump. PA on 1st down, move the pocket, run the option. Do something that Blake excels at.
Keelan Cole isn't an underneath type of WR. Send him deep. Moncrief doesn't try. Bench that bum. Get the ball to Dede. Throw the screen more to LF. Throw the screen to Yeldon. Run some counters and misdirection with Hyde. Like use what you have even if you don't have much.
Last thing.
Everyone called for Kessler. But Kessler needs a clean to moderately clean pocket. He is accurate. Throws a good ball. But he doesn't have the strongest arm. Putting him in when almost all of the starters on the oline are gone wasn't a good decision. I would've just rolled with Blake or signed another mobile QB.
Marrone is not a very good Head Coach. It almost sounds like the same issue that people have asserted towards Bortles, the same can be made for Marrone. He needs everything around him to be successful for him to coach well.
I would not be surprised if he is fired at the end of this season.
To chalk this year up to just injuries, would be foolish. I do not think Marrone has shown enough value to the team as the head coach.
I also believe Coughlin set a framework last year for Marrone and gave him the opportunity to run the team and granted injuries had a toll, but Marrone failed.
I totally agree that Marrone being an OLine guy and not recognizing that the QB pocket should have been moving based on Bortles skillset and the injuries on the OLine, shows that he has no idea on how to help the team.
Honestly, it's all about the QB. Some players have really developed (MJD, Mathis, Yan, Jack, Telvin....) but when you consistently have a lower tier QB, everything else kind of looks bad.
(12-21-2018, 12:09 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, it's all about the QB. Some players have really developed (MJD, Mathis, Yan, Jack, Telvin....) but when you consistently have a lower tier QB, everything else kind of looks bad.
yet you still want to draft a QB this year? all the QB this year are lower tier.
(12-21-2018, 02:13 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 12:09 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, it's all about the QB. Some players have really developed (MJD, Mathis, Yan, Jack, Telvin....) but when you consistently have a lower tier QB, everything else kind of looks bad.
yet you still want to draft a QB this year? all the QB this year are lower tier.
You aren't going to hit on that narrow chance of getting your guy in the draft if you don't even try!
And people say this every single year about the QB class. It's often inaccurate.
Also - when your team is this far down the 7th level of QB Hell, you have to do something. Even a decent QB will be an upgrade. I'd happily roll the dice on Grier or Haskins upgrading our QB situation. Absolutely.
(12-21-2018, 02:13 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 12:09 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly, it's all about the QB. Some players have really developed (MJD, Mathis, Yan, Jack, Telvin....) but when you consistently have a lower tier QB, everything else kind of looks bad.
yet you still want to draft a QB this year? all the QB this year are lower tier.
Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
(12-21-2018, 02:36 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:13 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ]yet you still want to draft a QB this year? all the QB this year are lower tier.
Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
im not saying its weak most the experts out there are. actually you dont know how good or bad a QB is until he has played and even then it would depend on the coach and team that pick him. Goff was terrible his own head coach called him a bust his rookiee year. Yet he got a new coach and is a Franchise QB. MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB they tried to make him. So if we dont replace these coaches dont expect to have a watson or mahomes type here.
I have no faith in the current coaching staff to develop players. I want to bring in young coaches from those successful coaching trees who have been taught to develop talent. No more re-treads.
(12-21-2018, 02:48 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:36 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
im not saying its weak most the experts out there are. actually you dont know how good or bad a QB is until he has played and even then it would depend on the coach and team that pick him. Goff was terrible his own head coach called him a bust his rookiee year. Yet he got a new coach and is a Franchise QB. MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB they tried to make him. So if we dont replace these coaches dont expect to have a watson or mahomes type here.
Preach
(12-21-2018, 02:48 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:36 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
im not saying its weak most the experts out there are. actually you dont know how good or bad a QB is until he has played and even then it would depend on the coach and team that pick him. Goff was terrible his own head coach called him a bust his rookiee year. Yet he got a new coach and is a Franchise QB. MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB they tried to make him. So if we dont replace these coaches dont expect to have a watson or mahomes type here.
Watson has a god awful Oline so there goes that argument. Mahomes and Watson might not be what they are for their respective teams but I can assure you they would be better than what we have had here the past 10 years and twice the QB Blake has ever been.
No one knows how good a QB will be when they're drafted but does that mean we shouldn't draft Haskins if he's available? Watson has stated that Haskins will be good in the NFL after working out with him. Does that mean he will certainly be good? No. However we shouldn't stop drafting QB talent and the best way to do that is with a high draft pick. The majority of the QBs in this league were top 15 or 1st round QBs.
(12-21-2018, 02:48 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:36 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
... MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB ...
Assuming Mahomes and Watson would be mediocre on this roster is a giant leap of logic that I find very unwise. It's just convenient to your narrative.
And yeah, Blake is a mobile QB that runs and throws. It's just that he throws a very inaccurate and poorly timed ball into coverage WAAAAYYYYYYYYY too often.
(12-21-2018, 02:48 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:36 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Lower tier to who? You? You're the guy who still wants Blake on this team so forgive me if I'm not accepting of your QB evaluating skills.
2017 was apparently a weak QB class with Watson and Mahomes. Now what? You pumped we have Fournette instead of those 2 "weak qb class" guys?
im not saying its weak most the experts out there are. actually you dont know how good or bad a QB is until he has played and even then it would depend on the coach and team that pick him. Goff was terrible his own head coach called him a bust his rookiee year. Yet he got a new coach and is a Franchise QB. MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB they tried to make him. So if we dont replace these coaches dont expect to have a watson or mahomes type here.
You keep talking about this not being a dropback quarterback. That is such a lame excuse. Give me a NFL quarterback that is not a dropback quarterback
first.
Man, I stuck with Bortles a lot longer than most on this board. But you're just making excuses for him if you can't actually use your eyes and see that he just is not a very good quarterback. I think his ceiling (and I absolutely hate that word) is adequate. I don't think he'll ever even be
good at this point. Even if you are a run first team, your quarterback
has to carry you ever once in a while. He just
looks bad...looks uncomfortable...looks like he forces everything, and after five years in the league I don't see how he is going to miraculously overcome all of his deficiencies. It's almost painful to watch sometimes. I legitimately feel sorry for the guy.
(12-21-2018, 03:03 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2018, 02:48 PM)JAGFAN88 Wrote: [ -> ]... MAhomes or Watson on this team would be mediocer at best and proably would not be playing cause the coaches here need a drop back QB who can hand off not a mobile QB who runs and throws. BTW that is what BLake is mobile QB that runs and throws not a drop back QB ...
Assuming Mahomes and Watson would be mediocre on this roster is a giant leap of logic that I find very unwise. It's just convenient to your narrative.
And yeah, Blake is a mobile QB that runs and throws. It's just that he throws a very inaccurate and poorly timed ball into coverage WAAAAYYYYYYYYY too often.
Its a leap of logic based on idiot coaches who do not properly know how to use personell. maybe as rookiees they would just say hey screw the coach im gonna run the ball my way. What the texans and cheifs did was to design their offense around those QBs. im just saying our coaches would not do that. And blake is statisticly a much better passer on the move, another fact that these idots failed to capitalize on. Im just saying we need new coaching if we are gonna draft one of these mobile QBs but if we stick with marone we probably will fail again at getting a franchise QB.