Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

Good defense or bad offense?

(02-04-2019, 12:00 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I just want it noted that for all of the talk about the passing games and offensive coaches, the Patriots won it all running the ball and playing defense.

As Brady gets older that’s how they will have to win more and more. Makes me wonder if BB sees the writing on the wall

Goff is awful.

(02-04-2019, 12:05 AM)Haterade Wrote: [ -> ]Good defense or bad offense?

Belichick has a long history of befuddling otherwise great offenses.

While with the Giants, he devised schemes that held the Montana-Rice led 49ers to:

3 points in 1986
7 points in 1990
13 points in 1990

In Super Bowl XXV (1990 season), he devised schemes that held the Kelly-Thomas-Reed led Bills to 19 points.

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes that held the Warner-Faulk- led Greatest Show on turf Rams to 17 points in Super Bowl XXXVI

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes to hold the Manning-Harrison led Colts to:

14 points in 2003
3 points in 2004


and the Luck led Colts to

7 points in 2014.

Now he held the Rams with McVay and all of the offensive bells and whistles to 3 points.

Although the Patriots don't have a particularly dominant pass rusher, they were in Goff's face all game long.  They shut down the Rams running game.  The Rams could not get anything going.

All of those can't be sloppy offensive performances.

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(02-04-2019, 12:14 AM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 12:00 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]I just want it noted that for all of the talk about the passing games and offensive coaches, the Patriots won it all running the ball and playing defense.

As Brady gets older that’s how they will have to win more and more. Makes me wonder if BB sees the writing on the wall

I agree that is a factor.

But that makes my point stronger.

(02-04-2019, 12:51 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 12:05 AM)Haterade Wrote: [ -> ]Good defense or bad offense?

Belichick has a long history of befuddling otherwise great offenses.

While with the Giants, he devised schemes that held the Montana-Rice led 49ers to:

3 points in 1986
7 points in 1990
13 points in 1990

In Super Bowl XXV (1990 season), he devised schemes that held the Kelly-Thomas-Reed led Bills to 19 points.

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes that held the Warner-Faulk- led Greatest Show on turf Rams to 17 points in Super Bowl XXXVI

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes to hold the Manning-Harrison led Colts to:

14 points in 2003
3 points in 2004


and the Luck led Colts to

7 points in 2014.

Now he held the Rams with McVay and all of the offensive bells and whistles to 3 points.

Although the Patriots don't have a particularly dominant pass rusher, they were in Goff's face all game long.  They shut down the Rams running game.  The Rams could not get anything going.

All of those can't be sloppy offensive performances.

---

(02-04-2019, 12:14 AM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]As Brady gets older that’s how they will have to win more and more. Makes me wonder if BB sees the writing on the wall

I agree that is a factor.

But that makes my point stronger.

The schemes he uses cause the opposing QB's to not think clearly, and they typically fall in to bad habits, make mistakes, and look sloppy. 

It is more than that though. The two most misses parts of Belichick's process is:
1. How well he motivates his players.
2. His team, especially the lines get better as the season goes on.

So many years, he has a "no name defense" that "outplays" perception. It gets every player to reach for their best, most focused and peak ability. He has sometimes had a great player or two, but it never stacked like some of the famous defenses most think of (Denver, Tampa, Baltimore, Bears, etc.) The fact that his players are always improving despite playing such a long season, is the most impressive. There are few teams who have done that, and most only do it once, not the majority of 18 seasons.

Patriots defense last night was incredible. Terrific coaching, players knowing their roles and how to get it done was just on another level.

I really believe that part of the great defensive showing last night was due to their absolutely terrible performance in last year's Superbowl. They were dreadful, and it really cost them the game in a shootout with Philly. I gotta believe that many of those same players had a huge determination to "right that ship", not performing like last year and having some of the games of their lives last night.

Yeah the Patriots defense just steamrolls and builds up momentum going into the post season. It is impressive even though I'm tired of it.

Jared Goff is not a "bright young star". Jared Goff is not what the NFL has been trying to sell us for 3 years, and never will be. His minimal success is simply a product of McVay and is incapable of making the necessary throw at the necessary time.

Ironically, the top 2 QB's of the 2016 NFL draft people thought we would be having a debate about for the next 2 decades are both garbage.

(02-04-2019, 02:41 AM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 12:51 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Belichick has a long history of befuddling otherwise great offenses.

While with the Giants, he devised schemes that held the Montana-Rice led 49ers to:

3 points in 1986
7 points in 1990
13 points in 1990

In Super Bowl XXV (1990 season), he devised schemes that held the Kelly-Thomas-Reed led Bills to 19 points.

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes that held the Warner-Faulk- led Greatest Show on turf Rams to 17 points in Super Bowl XXXVI

While with the Patriots, he devised schemes to hold the Manning-Harrison led Colts to:

14 points in 2003
3 points in 2004


and the Luck led Colts to

7 points in 2014.

Now he held the Rams with McVay and all of the offensive bells and whistles to 3 points.

Although the Patriots don't have a particularly dominant pass rusher, they were in Goff's face all game long.  They shut down the Rams running game.  The Rams could not get anything going.

All of those can't be sloppy offensive performances.

---

I agree that is a factor.

But that makes my point stronger.

The schemes he uses cause the opposing QB's to not think clearly, and they typically fall in to bad habits, make mistakes, and look sloppy. 

It is more than that though. The two most misses parts of Belichick's process is:
1. How well he motivates his players.
2. His team, especially the lines get better as the season goes on.

So many years, he has a "no name defense" that "outplays" perception. It gets every player to reach for their best, most focused and peak ability. He has sometimes had a great player or two, but it never stacked like some of the famous defenses most think of (Denver, Tampa, Baltimore, Bears, etc.) The fact that his players are always improving despite playing such a long season, is the most impressive. There are few teams who have done that, and most only do it once, not the majority of 18 seasons.

Regarding his schemes, we are in complete agreement, and last night's game was proof.  There were numerous instances where Goff was indecisive, and held onto the ball much longer than prudent, resulting in unnecessary sacks and hits.  To be honest, he was lucky to have finished the game.  Had he taken those hits from guys like  Wilber Marshall or Ray Lewis, he wouldn't have.  Ronnie Lott or Jack Tatum hitting him might have been lethal.

I can't speak to his motivational effectiveness, other than to say that I don't see those guys have games like we had against the tacks this year where you wonder where the effort was.  What astonishes me is the discipline with which the players play.  As I said in the thread on the main board, they don't seem to ever blow assignments and they don't seem to ever have the boneheaded penalties.

I especially agree with your assessment of how he maximizes talent.  While he has had some talented players on his defenses (the Parcells era Giants with LT, Carl Banks, Pepper Johnson and Leonard Marshall; his early Patriots teams with Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Richard Seymour, Ted Johnson), his defenses of recent vintage were not overly talented.  you could easily argue the Jaguars, Texans, Ravens and Chargers all easily are more talented defensively than the Patriots.

One thing I was thinking about last night was how fortunate the Patriots have been in the regular season to have played in such a bad division for such a long time and never really had to worry about making the playoffs. Not trying to take anything away from Bill and Brady, but their divisional situation has allowed them to "stockpile" different defensive and offensive sets that they don't need to show during the regular season.

(02-04-2019, 09:14 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Jared Goff is not a "bright young star". Jared Goff is not what the NFL has been trying to sell us for 3 years, and never will be. His minimal success is simply a product of McVay  and is incapable of making the necessary throw at the necessary time.

Ironically, the top 2 QB's of the 2016 NFL draft people thought we would be having a debate about for the next 2 decades are both garbage.

The Patriots sure made him look bad.

You think Wentz is "garbage?"

(02-04-2019, 09:43 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 09:14 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Jared Goff is not a "bright young star". Jared Goff is not what the NFL has been trying to sell us for 3 years, and never will be. His minimal success is simply a product of McVay  and is incapable of making the necessary throw at the necessary time.

Ironically, the top 2 QB's of the 2016 NFL draft people thought we would be having a debate about for the next 2 decades are both garbage.

The Patriots sure made him look bad.

You think Wentz is "garbage?"

Maybe not "garbage", but slightly above average and can't stay healthy. Franchising a back-up QB tells me that some "decision makers" agree with me.

(02-04-2019, 09:45 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 09:43 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]The Patriots sure made him look bad.

You think Wentz is "garbage?"

Maybe not "garbage", but slightly above average and can't stay healthy. Franchising a back-up QB tells me that some "decision makers" agree with me.

Durability is a legitimate critique of Wentz, but he was an MVP candidate in 2017.

While I concede there is some sentiment that Foles is the better fit for the Eagles, I think the team franchising Foles is more a matter of trying to maximize his trade value/limit his movement and having the cap room to do so via franchise tag.

I know if the Eagles offered Wentz in trade, I would easily give up our first to get him.

(02-04-2019, 09:36 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]One thing I was thinking about last night was how fortunate the Patriots have been in the regular season to have played in such a bad division for such a long time and never really had to worry about making the playoffs. Not trying to take anything away from Bill and Brady, but their divisional situation has allowed them to "stockpile" different defensive and offensive sets that they don't need to show during the regular season.

I despise the Patriots as much as anyone else but this statement isn't entirely true. The Patriots create the dysfunction by being that good. Fins, Jets and Bills have a .500 record over the last 10 years against anyone not named the Patriots. The Patriots are just so dominant that it makes the rest of their division look a lot worse.

It's funny that some people cant grasp the fact that it is possible for a team to have 2 good QBs

(02-04-2019, 10:06 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny that some people cant grasp the fact that it is possible for a team to have 2 good QBs

Who made that argument?

(02-04-2019, 10:28 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 10:06 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny that some people cant grasp the fact that it is possible for a team to have 2 good QBs

Who made that argument?

I assume he was referring to me about my Foles/Wentz comment.

From a historical standpoint, I would be curious to see how many teams have used their tag on the backup QB.

(02-04-2019, 10:39 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-04-2019, 10:28 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Who made that argument?

I assume he was referring to me about my Foles/Wentz comment.

From a historical standpoint, I would be curious to see how many teams have used their tag on the backup QB.

Oh me me me. I can help! None.

It makes zero sense financially and screws the rest of your roster. They are already cap strapped and now they are going to pour 35 million into the QB spot? And one of them won't even play?!

Blake Bortles played better against the Patriots, both last year in the playoffs and in week 2 this year, than Jared Goff did. Let that sink in.

(02-04-2019, 01:37 PM)JaguarKick Wrote: [ -> ]Blake Bortles played better against the Patriots, both last year in the playoffs and in week 2 this year, than Jared Goff did.  Let that sink in.

Very true. And boy, Goff sure looked completely lost last night.

But, to be a little fair:
- As stated, the Patriots defense last postseason was basically awful ( the Jags going conservative against that in the title game last year is still a brainfart). The Pats had to get by the Tacks, Jags, and then  got smoked by the Iggles in SB. 
- And, playing the Pats in week 2 is always a benefit. They're basically a different team in Sep/Oct than they are in Nov/Dec/Jan (almost every season). Heck, they lost back to back games against the Jags and Lions early this year. Think about that. 

This postseason, their defense was on another level. Think about who they played and what they did to them:
- Absolutely smoked the Chargers
- Shut out the Chiefs in the 1st half (although KC came roaring back)
- Shut out the Rams in the 1st half and kept dominating them.

They ran through 3 of the top teams in the NFL this whole season.
Chargers
Chiefs
Rams

Impressive.