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Yeah, it's a very poor argument. Semantics are important for clarification. Not for shifting goal posts. I actually like Mikesez, but you can tell when he's losing an argument. I wish he was more aware of it.

(03-08-2019, 08:49 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 08:27 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]So the word was invented first in Germany and then borrowed in England, during a time when both countries had very few if any Arabs.

You're like a breathing Foxworthy bit: If you think anti-semitism in 2019 is anything but hate directed towards Jews then you just might be a Mikesez.

I am sorry we got tangled up in this.
Regardless of if anti-semitic is the right word or anti-jewish is the right word, I still submit that ilhan Omar is neither, based on what she said so far.

All of us are allowed to criticize policies of Israel, and if any of us choose to do so, it does not mean we hate all Jews. All it means is we disagree with some Jews.

(03-08-2019, 12:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 08:49 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You're like a breathing Foxworthy bit: If you think anti-semitism in 2019 is anything but hate directed towards Jews then you just might be a Mikesez.

I am sorry we got tangled up in this.
Regardless of if anti-semitic is the right word or anti-jewish is the right word, I still submit that ilhan Omar is neither, based on what she said so far.

All of us are allowed to criticize policies of Israel, and if any of us choose to do so, it does not mean we hate all Jews. All it means is we disagree with some Jews.

The policy of Israel is that Israel and Jews should be allowed to exist and thrive in Israel.

That's it. It's the arabs in the area that scream death to jews.

(03-08-2019, 12:46 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 12:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I am sorry we got tangled up in this.
Regardless of if anti-semitic is the right word or anti-jewish is the right word, I still submit that ilhan Omar is neither, based on what she said so far.

All of us are allowed to criticize policies of Israel, and if any of us choose to do so, it does not mean we hate all Jews. All it means is we disagree with some Jews.

The policy of Israel is that Israel and Jews should be allowed to exist and thrive in Israel.

That's it. It's the arabs in the area that scream death to jews.

You don't think that might be a bit of an oversimplification?

(03-07-2019, 04:23 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-07-2019, 01:32 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Right.  Jews are also Semites. If you call someone anti-Semitic you are saying they hate Jews and Arabs.  Muslims revere Muhammad are required to say some of their prayers in Arabic even if they don't speak Arabic.  Calling a Muslim anti-Semitic is ignorant.

Since 1880 you've been wrong, it's specifically been Jew-related for 140 years now. 

[font=Lato, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]anti-Semitism
 noun[/font]
[font=Lato, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]an·ti-Sem·i·tism | \ ˌan-tē-ˈse-mə-ˌti-zəm [/url] , ˌan-ˌtī-\[/font]
[font=Lato, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Definition of anti-Semitism

[font=Lato, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
[/font][/font]
First Known Use of anti-Semitism

1880, in the meaning defined [url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-Semitism#h1]above

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona...i-Semitism

Sometimes "two plus two equals five."

(03-08-2019, 12:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 12:46 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]The policy of Israel is that Israel and Jews should be allowed to exist and thrive in Israel.

That's it. It's the arabs in the area that scream death to jews.

You don't think that might be a bit of an oversimplification?

What's simple to me is that the region of Israel before the Jews were given the land was a garbage heap.

Now it's a beautiful thriving oasis in the middle of a garbage heap.

I'm going to trust the Israelis to do what's best for that region.

(03-08-2019, 03:49 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 12:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]You don't think that might be a bit of an oversimplification?

What's simple to me is that the region of Israel before the Jews were given the land was a garbage heap.

Now it's a beautiful thriving oasis in the middle of a garbage heap.

I'm going to trust the Israelis to do what's best for that region.

Yeah, the Ottomans exploited it, then the British did. Now the government of Israel at least is led by people who actually live there and want it to do well.
However, only about 20% of the Arab residents of Israel's territory have voting rights to that government.  Leave that aside for a moment.
Don't you agree that most of the thriving is from our supporting them? There is no other country that gets more foreign aid from the US, and they have such a small population, and they've been getting it for decades, and we expect nothing in return from them.  
Surely you don't mean to imply there is something inherent to the people themselves that makes their country more prosperous compared to its neighbors?

Compare the average IQ of an Israeli to that of nearby nations then ask yourself that question.

(03-08-2019, 05:03 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 03:49 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]What's simple to me is that the region of Israel before the Jews were given the land was a garbage heap.

Now it's a beautiful thriving oasis in the middle of a garbage heap.

I'm going to trust the Israelis to do what's best for that region.

Yeah, the Ottomans exploited it, then the British did. Now the government of Israel at least is led by people who actually live there and want it to do well.
However, only about 20% of the Arab residents of Israel's territory have voting rights to that government.  Leave that aside for a moment.
Don't you agree that most of the thriving is from our supporting them? There is no other country that gets more foreign aid from the US, and they have such a small population, and they've been getting it for decades, and we expect nothing in return from them.  
Surely you don't mean to imply there is something inherent to the people themselves that makes their country more prosperous compared to its neighbors?

Not the top foreign aid recipient and the aid they do get is nearly entirely for security purposes, not development etc. Their tourism and technology sector allows them to thrive when compared to neighbors.

(03-08-2019, 06:42 PM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ]Compare the average IQ of an Israeli to that of nearby nations then ask yourself that question.

Suppose the two of us both sit down for an intelligence test. Suppose one of us is the clear winner. Leave aside what this would imply, or not imply, about your parents and mine, and your children and mine. Would the winner between the two of us then have a right to claim the property of the loser, and the right to rule over the loser's affairs without the loser getting any kind of a vote?

(03-08-2019, 07:34 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 05:03 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, the Ottomans exploited it, then the British did. Now the government of Israel at least is led by people who actually live there and want it to do well.
However, only about 20% of the Arab residents of Israel's territory have voting rights to that government.  Leave that aside for a moment.
Don't you agree that most of the thriving is from our supporting them? There is no other country that gets more foreign aid from the US, and they have such a small population, and they've been getting it for decades, and we expect nothing in return from them.  
Surely you don't mean to imply there is something inherent to the people themselves that makes their country more prosperous compared to its neighbors?

Not the top foreign aid recipient and the aid they do get is nearly entirely for security purposes, not development etc. Their tourism and technology sector allows them to thrive when compared to neighbors.

In terms of aid per person, Israel is the top beneficiary by far.

(03-08-2019, 07:34 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 05:03 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, the Ottomans exploited it, then the British did. Now the government of Israel at least is led by people who actually live there and want it to do well.
However, only about 20% of the Arab residents of Israel's territory have voting rights to that government.  Leave that aside for a moment.
Don't you agree that most of the thriving is from our supporting them? There is no other country that gets more foreign aid from the US, and they have such a small population, and they've been getting it for decades, and we expect nothing in return from them.  
Surely you don't mean to imply there is something inherent to the people themselves that makes their country more prosperous compared to its neighbors?

Not the top foreign aid recipient and the aid they do get is nearly entirely for security purposes, not development etc. Their tourism and technology sector allows them to thrive when compared to neighbors.

This exactly. I hate to say it but it's just what it is. Basically the entire middle east, what contributions to the world come from this region? What innovation? Were it not for one natural resource the entire region would be another South America.

(03-08-2019, 08:56 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 06:42 PM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ]Compare the average IQ of an Israeli to that of nearby nations then ask yourself that question.

Suppose the two of us both sit down for an intelligence test. Suppose one of us is the clear winner. Leave aside what this would imply, or not imply, about your parents and mine, and your children and mine. Would the winner between the two of us then have a right to claim the property of the loser, and the right to rule over the loser's affairs without the loser getting any kind of a vote?

No. However, in a very primitive sense just because somebody owns something are they actually entitled to it? In the long run the more intelligent group of people takes what they want (exploits) those who are vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Considering the fact that they have a billion people and they are smarter than their American and European counterparts, this is why there is no doubt that one day China will rule the world.

(03-08-2019, 09:23 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 07:34 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Not the top foreign aid recipient and the aid they do get is nearly entirely for security purposes, not development etc. Their tourism and technology sector allows them to thrive when compared to neighbors.

In terms of aid per person, Israel is the top beneficiary by far.

Of course you would now move the goal posts to "per person." You would still be incorrect in your belief. The aid is in the form of grants to the government/military of Israel for security, not distributed to its people. A 10-year MOU was signed that runs from FY2019-FY2028 that includes: $38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing grants plus $5 billion in missile defense appropriations). This is a bilateral agreement that also benefits the US. We share missle technologies, energy tech, we invest in their bonds, and we share military tech. They have contracted to purchase over 50 F-35s. Without giving too much detail...they are instrumental in allowing our partners to being able to operate in a Russian air defense zones freely, whether S-300 or S-400 systems.

(03-08-2019, 08:56 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 06:42 PM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ]Compare the average IQ of an Israeli to that of nearby nations then ask yourself that question.

Suppose the two of us both sit down for an intelligence test. Suppose one of us is the clear winner. Leave aside what this would imply, or not imply, about your parents and mine, and your children and mine. Would the winner between the two of us then have a right to claim the property of the loser, and the right to rule over the loser's affairs without the loser getting any kind of a vote?

Trial by intellect instead of combat?

(03-09-2019, 01:26 AM)Jagfan44 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 07:34 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Not the top foreign aid recipient and the aid they do get is nearly entirely for security purposes, not development etc. Their tourism and technology sector allows them to thrive when compared to neighbors.

This exactly. I hate to say it but it's just what it is. Basically the entire middle east, what contributions to the world come from this region? What innovation? Were it not for one natural resource the entire region would be another South America.

About half the world's population adheres to one of the two major religions that came out of the middle East.
Arabs after Muhammad were one of the first civilizations in history to allow multiple religions to live side-by-side.  And they maintained this for centuries. Remember that only one generation passed between the time that the Romans first officially tolerated Christianity to the time that they started trying to force people to adopt Christianity. It's true that the Muslims only ever tolerated Christians and Jews, and it's true that they sometimes failed to tolerate Christians and Jews. However, prior to this moment in history, rulers had tried to stamp out or at least desecrate and syncretize the religions of conquered people groups.
Most of the stars in the sky have Arabic names.
Arabs in the years 1000-1400 made major strides in tracking the stars and the planets more precisely than the Greeks before them had. The earliest description of the scientific method that we have was written in the Arabic language, in Basra in the 1100s. The earliest explanation of Algebra that we have was written in Arabic in North Africa.

(03-09-2019, 09:02 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 09:23 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]In terms of aid per person, Israel is the top beneficiary by far.

Of course you would now move the goal posts to "per person." You would still be incorrect in your belief. The aid is in the form of grants to the government/military of Israel for security, not distributed to its people. A 10-year MOU was signed that runs from FY2019-FY2028 that includes: $38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing grants plus $5 billion in missile defense appropriations). This is a bilateral agreement that also benefits the US. We share missle technologies, energy tech, we invest in their bonds, and we share military tech. They have contracted to purchase over 50 F-35s. Without giving too much detail...they are instrumental in allowing our partners to being able to operate in a Russian air defense zones freely, whether S-300 or S-400 systems.

The goalposts did not move. I had mentioned Israel's small population from the beginning. Afghanistan is the only country that gets more aid in total dollars. and Afghanistan has only been getting that kind of aid for 20 years. Israel has received it for 70 years.
the rest of your argument seems to be along the lines that Israel deserves this aid and that they do good things with the money. I wouldn't dispute that point actually. I'm just saying that you can't give them credit for their own prosperity when so much of their economy depends on aid from us, and always has. you wouldn't praise a 70 year old man who still gets an allowance from his father as being self-made.

(03-09-2019, 10:25 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-08-2019, 08:56 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Suppose the two of us both sit down for an intelligence test. Suppose one of us is the clear winner. Leave aside what this would imply, or not imply, about your parents and mine, and your children and mine. Would the winner between the two of us then have a right to claim the property of the loser, and the right to rule over the loser's affairs without the loser getting any kind of a vote?

Trial by intellect instead of combat?

Plato might have approved.

(03-09-2019, 11:51 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-09-2019, 09:02 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Of course you would now move the goal posts to "per person." You would still be incorrect in your belief. The aid is in the form of grants to the government/military of Israel for security, not distributed to its people. A 10-year MOU was signed that runs from FY2019-FY2028 that includes: $38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing grants plus $5 billion in missile defense appropriations). This is a bilateral agreement that also benefits the US. We share missle technologies, energy tech, we invest in their bonds, and we share military tech. They have contracted to purchase over 50 F-35s. Without giving too much detail...they are instrumental in allowing our partners to being able to operate in a Russian air defense zones freely, whether S-300 or S-400 systems.

The goalposts did not move. I had mentioned Israel's small population from the beginning. Afghanistan is the only country that gets more aid in total dollars. and Afghanistan has only been getting that kind of aid for 20 years. Israel has received it for 70 years.
the rest of your argument seems to be along the lines that Israel deserves this aid and that they do good things with the money. I wouldn't dispute that point actually. I'm just saying that you can't give them credit for their own prosperity when so much of their economy depends on aid from us, and always has. you wouldn't praise a 70 year old man who still gets an allowance from his father as being self-made.

First off, I'd guess that the Marshall Islands gets more aid per capita.

Secondly, in your analogy the father gives his son money to be spent only on guns, which have to be bought from the father's business.

(03-09-2019, 01:30 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-09-2019, 11:51 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]The goalposts did not move. I had mentioned Israel's small population from the beginning. Afghanistan is the only country that gets more aid in total dollars. and Afghanistan has only been getting that kind of aid for 20 years. Israel has received it for 70 years.
the rest of your argument seems to be along the lines that Israel deserves this aid and that they do good things with the money. I wouldn't dispute that point actually. I'm just saying that you can't give them credit for their own prosperity when so much of their economy depends on aid from us, and always has. you wouldn't praise a 70 year old man who still gets an allowance from his father as being self-made.

First off, I'd guess that the Marshall Islands gets more aid per capita.

Secondly, in your analogy the father gives his son money to be spent only on guns, which have to be bought from the father's business.

You might be right about the Marshall islands.
Some sources consider the Marshall islands to be US territory so those sources may not include the money we give to the Marshall islands as "foreign aid."

In the last decade, a lot of the aid that the US has given Israel has indeed been funneled right back into US based defense contractors. The arrangement was not always this way. we also should not neglect the role played by generous donations from individual Jews who live here.
The point is that Israel's prosperity is largely a product of them receiving a steady stream of donations for a longer period of time than most of us have been alive.