(04-25-2019, 01:23 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2019, 12:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I googled "Commonwealth medical wait time study". The only more recent result is an interview they did with a Canadian health care administrator which appears sympathetic to the Canadian government point of view.
Your thinking is limited to wait times, so you're missing a lot of the broader concepts. I think anyone who wishes to take part in this discussion should first spend an hour reading and digesting this:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica...rom-abroad
then follow that up with this:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/20...-countries
and this:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/char...item-start
then move on to the numerous reports of care rationing and provider shortages faced by every care system.
But hey, what do I know?
Yes we have a general shortage of doctors in Canada and in the United States.
On the other hand Germany and the Netherlands have almost twice as many doctors per person as us.
In the United States you can generally get seen if you're a citizen over the age of 65 or if you have a middle-class job. Even so there are forms of rationing for expensive stuff and insurance companies will say no. Everyone else faces a long to nearly infinite wait time.
In Canada everyone can get seen but everyone has to wait a couple of months.
Germany and the Netherlands are the best of both worlds, since they don't have a doctor shortage to cope with everyone can get seen in a timely fashion.
(04-28-2019, 12:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2019, 01:23 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Your thinking is limited to wait times, so you're missing a lot of the broader concepts. I think anyone who wishes to take part in this discussion should first spend an hour reading and digesting this:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publica...rom-abroad
then follow that up with this:
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/20...-countries
and this:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/char...item-start
then move on to the numerous reports of care rationing and provider shortages faced by every care system.
But hey, what do I know?
Yes we have a general shortage of doctors in Canada and in the United States.
On the other hand Germany and the Netherlands have almost twice as many doctors per person as us.
In the United States you can generally get seen if you're a citizen over the age of 65 or if you have a middle-class job. Even so there are forms of rationing for expensive stuff and insurance companies will say no. Everyone else faces a long to nearly infinite wait time.
In Canada everyone can get seen but everyone has to wait a couple of months.
Germany and the Netherlands are the best of both worlds, since they don't have a doctor shortage to cope with everyone can get seen in a timely fashion.
They have smaller populations, the dynamics are different than they are here. The variables are completely unique.
(04-28-2019, 01:17 PM)Ronster Wrote: [ -> ] (04-28-2019, 12:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Yes we have a general shortage of doctors in Canada and in the United States.
On the other hand Germany and the Netherlands have almost twice as many doctors per person as us.
In the United States you can generally get seen if you're a citizen over the age of 65 or if you have a middle-class job. Even so there are forms of rationing for expensive stuff and insurance companies will say no. Everyone else faces a long to nearly infinite wait time.
In Canada everyone can get seen but everyone has to wait a couple of months.
Germany and the Netherlands are the best of both worlds, since they don't have a doctor shortage to cope with everyone can get seen in a timely fashion.
They have smaller populations, the dynamics are different than they are here. The variables are completely unique.
We are more like Germany than we are like Canada, if you ignore the proximity and the language.
Germany's total population and population density are more similar to ours.
(04-28-2019, 09:19 PM)MalabarJag Wrote: [ -> ] (04-28-2019, 05:39 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]We are more like Germany than we are like Canada, if you ignore the proximity and the language.
Germany's total population and population density are more similar to ours.
Our demographics are nothing like Germany's or The Netherlands' and The Netherlands has gone in big on euthanasia, so that eliminates a lot of end-of-life cost and doctor visits. Sure, if we just kill every senior who gets sick, I bet the US could match The Netherlands in doctor to patient ratio. Is that your final solution?
I oppose legal euthanasia.
So does Germany.
I don't think legal euthanasia explains short wait times in the Netherlands. and it certainly doesn't explain how Germany got there.
I bet the Netherlands and Germany don't oppose their 50%+ personal income tax rates or their 20% sales tax! Nothing like paying nearly three-quarters of your income to the government.
In Canada a person is euthanized every 3 hours.
(04-30-2019, 08:13 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]I bet the Netherlands and Germany don't oppose their 50%+ personal income tax rates or their 20% sales tax! Nothing like paying nearly three-quarters of your income to the government.
Most Germans pay much less than that.
And so do most Dutch.
The median northern european pays more than us, true, but thats notnjust for universal health care. They also get one year of maternity leave, nearly free daycare, nearly free university education, many more vacation days.
And before you say this is bankrupting them, check their debt/GDP ratio compared to ours.
(04-30-2019, 09:09 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 08:13 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]I bet the Netherlands and Germany don't oppose their 50%+ personal income tax rates or their 20% sales tax! Nothing like paying nearly three-quarters of your income to the government.
Most Germans pay much less than that.
And so do most Dutch.
The median northern european pays more than us, true, but thats notnjust for universal health care. They also get one year of maternity leave, nearly free daycare, nearly free university education, many more vacation days.
And before you say this is bankrupting them, check their debt/GDP ratio compared to ours.
You're right. Our GDP to Debt Ratio would be a lot better if we didn't adopt a system of redistributing our defense and medical resources to our "Allies"
(04-30-2019, 09:48 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 09:09 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Most Germans pay much less than that.
And so do most Dutch.
The median northern european pays more than us, true, but thats notnjust for universal health care. They also get one year of maternity leave, nearly free daycare, nearly free university education, many more vacation days.
And before you say this is bankrupting them, check their debt/GDP ratio compared to ours.
You're right. Our GDP to Debt Ratio would be a lot better if we didn't adopt a system of redistributing our defense and medical resources to our "Allies"
Let's do some math on that.
We spend about 4% of our GDP on defense.
They spend about 2% only. That does make a difference, 2%.
But we spend about 17% of GDP on health care (7.5% comes from public, 9.5% from private sector), while they spend about 11% (8.5% public sector, 2.5% private sector).
They actually spend less on both.
The 2% of GDP they save on defense doesn't seem to explain anything that's going on with their health care system.
(04-30-2019, 11:39 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 09:48 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]You're right. Our GDP to Debt Ratio would be a lot better if we didn't adopt a system of redistributing our defense and medical resources to our "Allies"
Let's do some math on that.
We spend about 4% of our GDP on defense.
They spend about 2% only. That does make a difference, 2%.
But we spend about 17% of GDP on health care (7.5% comes from public, 9.5% from private sector), while they spend about 11% (8.5% public sector, 2.5% private sector).
They actually spend less on both.
The 2% of GDP they save on defense doesn't seem to explain anything that's going on with their health care system.
Yeah, it's a real head scratcher.
We're Number 1!
FTA:
"And in terms of estimates of absolute numbers of people with diabetes in these nations, the U.S., with almost 30 million people with diabetes, has around two thirds the number of cases of all the other 37 nations in the developed nation league combined (46 million)."
As a result of our poor living we end up spending nearly $20k per person more than other countries during the last 36 months of life, mostly treating chronic conditions like Type 2. That accounts for 24% of all health expenditures, a number that is multiple percentage points higher than other developed nations. We spend thousands of dollars trying to fix self-inflicted problems causes by decades of bad decisions. But it's the System's fault!
(04-30-2019, 12:37 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 11:39 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Let's do some math on that.
We spend about 4% of our GDP on defense.
They spend about 2% only. That does make a difference, 2%.
But we spend about 17% of GDP on health care (7.5% comes from public, 9.5% from private sector), while they spend about 11% (8.5% public sector, 2.5% private sector).
They actually spend less on both.
The 2% of GDP they save on defense doesn't seem to explain anything that's going on with their health care system.
Yeah, it's a real head scratcher.
We're Number 1!
FTA:
"And in terms of estimates of absolute numbers of people with diabetes in these nations, the U.S., with almost 30 million people with diabetes, has around two thirds the number of cases of all the other 37 nations in the developed nation league combined (46 million)."
As a result of our poor living we end up spending nearly $20k per person more than other countries during the last 36 months of life, mostly treating chronic conditions like Type 2. That accounts for 24% of all health expenditures, a number that is multiple percentage points higher than other developed nations. We spend thousands of dollars trying to fix self-inflicted problems causes by decades of bad decisions. But it's the System's fault!
We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
(04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 12:37 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, it's a real head scratcher.
We're Number 1!
FTA:
"And in terms of estimates of absolute numbers of people with diabetes in these nations, the U.S., with almost 30 million people with diabetes, has around two thirds the number of cases of all the other 37 nations in the developed nation league combined (46 million)."
As a result of our poor living we end up spending nearly $20k per person more than other countries during the last 36 months of life, mostly treating chronic conditions like Type 2. That accounts for 24% of all health expenditures, a number that is multiple percentage points higher than other developed nations. We spend thousands of dollars trying to fix self-inflicted problems causes by decades of bad decisions. But it's the System's fault!
We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
So is Mexican Medical Tourism a thing?
(04-30-2019, 01:36 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
So is Mexican Medical Tourism a thing?
Medical tourism goes both ways.
There is a whole town in Mexico where nearly everyone works in dentistry, serving Americans who don't have good dental coverage.
(04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 12:37 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, it's a real head scratcher.
We're Number 1!
FTA:
"And in terms of estimates of absolute numbers of people with diabetes in these nations, the U.S., with almost 30 million people with diabetes, has around two thirds the number of cases of all the other 37 nations in the developed nation league combined (46 million)."
As a result of our poor living we end up spending nearly $20k per person more than other countries during the last 36 months of life, mostly treating chronic conditions like Type 2. That accounts for 24% of all health expenditures, a number that is multiple percentage points higher than other developed nations. We spend thousands of dollars trying to fix self-inflicted problems causes by decades of bad decisions. But it's the System's fault!
We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
Actually there is a lot more to it than that. For one thing our meal portions are way too big and not enough healthy stuff. Also, people have gotten lazy and don't get enough exercise. I have seen people DRIVE 2 blocks just to go get lunch at a fast food restaurant from the place that I work. Meal choices are often unhealthy, especially when consumed as part of a "regular" diet. We had a fat slob that used to work with us that would eat a couple of Hot Pockets every day for lunch and wash them down with some kind of soda.
It's not just "eating more sugar" that is unhealthy, it's the portions and choices that many people make along with being lazy. That's why we have so many fat people and people with diabetes and other ailments.
(04-30-2019, 02:37 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
Actually there is a lot more to it than that. For one thing our meal portions are way too big and not enough healthy stuff. Also, people have gotten lazy and don't get enough exercise. I have seen people DRIVE 2 blocks just to go get lunch at a fast food restaurant from the place that I work. Meal choices are often unhealthy, especially when consumed as part of a "regular" diet. We had a fat slob that used to work with us that would eat a couple of Hot Pockets every day for lunch and wash them down with some kind of soda.
It's not just "eating more sugar" that is unhealthy, it's the portions and choices that many people make along with being lazy. That's why we have so many fat people and people with diabetes and other ailments.
True. Western and Northern Europeans walk pretty much everywhere.
(04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 12:37 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, it's a real head scratcher.
We're Number 1!
FTA:
"And in terms of estimates of absolute numbers of people with diabetes in these nations, the U.S., with almost 30 million people with diabetes, has around two thirds the number of cases of all the other 37 nations in the developed nation league combined (46 million)."
As a result of our poor living we end up spending nearly $20k per person more than other countries during the last 36 months of life, mostly treating chronic conditions like Type 2. That accounts for 24% of all health expenditures, a number that is multiple percentage points higher than other developed nations. We spend thousands of dollars trying to fix self-inflicted problems causes by decades of bad decisions. But it's the System's fault!
We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
Admit it... Ur just trolling us now aren't u?
(04-30-2019, 05:26 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-30-2019, 01:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]We have more diabetes because we eat more sugar, but they smoke more and drink more and have more of the diseases you would expect from that.
Also, Mexico eats a lot more sugar and gets more diabetes than us. They also somehow spend less on health, and cover everyone.
Admit it... Ur just trolling us now aren't u?
Not at all. everyone in Mexico has health insurance now.
(04-30-2019, 06:29 PM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ]Medicare for all...more like Medicaid!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2...617156002/
This doctor is just as confused as a lot of the politicians.
Are we talking about a guarantee of health insurance or are we talking about single-payer? The doctor is only discussing the worst aspects of both as if we will get the worst of the both worlds.