(06-08-2019, 06:38 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2019, 08:19 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think that's actually how stuff works. Yes, Mexico could stop most of these people. But
Mexico's government is supposed to make Mexicans safe and happy. It's unreasonable to expect them to do the bidding of Americans without compensation. That could be us giving them money, or us agreeing to do something that they have been wanting us to do for a while.
You have such a myopic view of the world, dude. Hate to beat a dead horse, but you need to expand your thinking.
If a neighbor and I are trading goods, let's say I give them eggs from my chickens and they give me oranges from their tree. If I notice they are dumping trash on my yard and stop trading with them, that's my prerogative. If I don't like the color they painted their house, and stop trading with them, that's my prerogative. If I don't like that he's sleeping with the neighbor's wife, and stop trading with him, that's my prerogative.
You use an unsupported conclusion to suggest that trade policy change should be only be predicated on some kind of trade grievance, but have not shown any premises that support that conclusion. My demonstration supports my position, that your claim is not how it works in any facet of our world. It's odd to me that you would reason that way in this specific example, yet you turn around and talk about the interconnection of everything a couple posts later. Please don't waste your time looking for some part of my analogy that's slightly off. The point has been clearly made. Just acquiesce or show why someone would need to limit trade preference to an official trade grievance.
Per your request I won't look for anything about your analogy that's slightly off, but I will say that people are not countries. Unfortunately, that is way more than slightly off.
there are people in this country that want to trade with Mexico, and people in Mexico that want to trade with us, regardless of how Donald Trump feels.
Sure, that trade is regulated and taxed for various reasons with various motives, but all of those regulations and taxes are affecting many many different traders on each side, not just two neighbors.
because this gets so complicated, an entirely separate judicial system has been set up around it, with free trade agreements like NAFTA / usmca, and with the world trade organization (WTO).
these exact conversations that we are having have happened so many times, between so many different traders, in so many different countries, that the WTO actually has legal standards on what is a good justification for a punitive tariff, and what is not.
Maybe I don't understand those standards as well as I should, or maybe I do understand them pretty well but I haven't explained them very well. But I do know that all the people who know the standards better than me, who negotiate and enforce trade agreements for a living, who has been legislating for decades, were crying foul on this.
What are countries except for people? You think those borders would be there without people?
You need to stop appealing to authority and start thinking seriously. People are crying foul about everything. Show me a policy where people aren't crying foul. That's rhetorical, btw.
(06-08-2019, 10:54 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]What are countries except for people? You think those borders would be there without people?
You need to stop appealing to authority and start thinking seriously. People are crying foul about everything. Show me a policy where people aren't crying foul. That's rhetorical, btw.
of course a border is just an imaginary line on a map that only represents an agreement between people. No people, no border. this is trivial.
People do cry foul about everything.
But not all of them know what they are talking about.
You get to decide for yourself which complaints are legitimate or informed
Nearly the entire US Senate saying that tariffs are not the right tool to try and solve this problem, or a president saying that it is the right tool.
(06-09-2019, 07:33 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2019, 10:54 PM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]What are countries except for people? You think those borders would be there without people?
You need to stop appealing to authority and start thinking seriously. People are crying foul about everything. Show me a policy where people aren't crying foul. That's rhetorical, btw.
of course a border is just an imaginary line on a map that only represents an agreement between people. No people, no border. this is trivial.
People do cry foul about everything.
But not all of them know what they are talking about.
You get to decide for yourself which complaints are legitimate or informed
Nearly the entire US Senate saying that tariffs are not the right tool to try and solve this problem, or a president saying that it is the right tool.
Love how you downplay borders as "just imaginary lines." Many of wars fought over those lines. Nothing trivial about it consider us people aren't going away anytime soon unless you believe AOC and her 12 year cry!
Talk is talk and mostly hot air from career politicians. Sometimes actions speak louder than words and in this case, so far, the POTUS going all in on what he believed to be the right & legal tool at his disposal worked. There is so much hate for one guy and his politically unorthodox methods, that people can't see how Congress is failing miserably in all regards. I applaud the POTUS for action while those in Congress continue to in-fight and sit on their hands.
(06-09-2019, 08:44 AM)B2hibry Wrote: [ -> ] (06-09-2019, 07:33 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]of course a border is just an imaginary line on a map that only represents an agreement between people. No people, no border. this is trivial.
People do cry foul about everything.
But not all of them know what they are talking about.
You get to decide for yourself which complaints are legitimate or informed
Nearly the entire US Senate saying that tariffs are not the right tool to try and solve this problem, or a president saying that it is the right tool.
Love how you downplay borders as "just imaginary lines." Many of wars fought over those lines. Nothing trivial about it consider us people aren't going away anytime soon unless you believe AOC and her 12 year cry!
Talk is talk and mostly hot air from career politicians. Sometimes actions speak louder than words and in this case, so far, the POTUS going all in on what he believed to be the right & legal tool at his disposal worked. There is so much hate for one guy and his politically unorthodox methods, that people can't see how Congress is failing miserably in all regards. I applaud the POTUS for action while those in Congress continue to in-fight and sit on their hands.
I was acknowledging Last42min's point that borders are human constructs.
I called his point trivial.
I agree with you that a border is not trivial. .