Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

In the offseason when the schedule was announced, this looked like one of the tougher games of the season.  Even with Brees out, their defense would be a challenge for the team.  Nevertheless, it was disappointing to lose this hard fought game.  My thoughts...

1.  One of the fears I had was that once teams got tape on Minshew, they would begin to adjust and reduce Minshew's effectiveness.  Although the teams coming up in the next few weeks don't have the kind of personnel the Saints offer, it appears they now have the approach to defending Minshew.  The Saints seemed to make it a point to keep Minshew inside the pocket to limit his effectiveness.  Minshew had his worst statistical game as a pro.  Granted, they were helped a good deal with the Jaguars being saddled with horrible field position, but the Saints executed a good defensive game plan.

2.  The one thing the Jaguars could get going offensively with any degree of success was Leonard Fournette.  He had  between 70-80 yards rushing for the game, and had one really nice run to the left taken away due to a holding call on Will Richardson.  But I think as teams continue to adjust to Minshew as described above, Fournette becomes more important.  Even if Foles returns to the starting lineup, having a credible running game will be key to keeping him upright.

3.  The Minshew INT wound up being a key turning point in the game, and the field position was another determining factor.  However, second and third downs were yet another big factor.  It seemed too often, the Saints would turn a second and long into a 3rd and short, while too often the Jaguars offense would have a second and long turn into a 3rd and long.  Those sorts of things are often the difference between wins and losses.

4.  To hold the Saints to 13 points is a sign of a good defensive effort.  Two good individual veteran performances from an overall good team performance were turned in by Taven Bryan and Tre Herndon.  Taven Bryan didn't seem to get much playing time, but the action I saw he exploded off the snap and was disruptive, drawing a holding penalty on a play he should have made a tackle for a huge loss.  He already has more explosive and disruptive plays so far this year than he had all of last year.  As for Herndon, I thought he did an outstanding job covering Ted Ginn on vertical routes.  Despite his age, Ginn is still among the fastest in the league, but Herndon provided good coverage against him.

5.  Hope Swaim and Lee are okay.  Neither one of those injuries looked good.

6.  Wingard had another good special teams play, making a good tackle on punt coverage.

7.  Rookie Watch: 

• Josh Allen-Notched his fourth sack of the season.
  
• Jawaan Taylor-I'm seeing why he fell so far in the draft.  Now perhaps I am being overly harsh.  He has gone against J.J. Watt, Von Miller and Cameron Jordan-three of the best pass rushers in the last ten to twenty years.  That said, by my count, he's given up 2 sacks a pice to each of those guys, to say nothing of the penalties.  Even worse, he doesn't even seem to be having the desired impact in the running game.  Yes he is a rookie, but he's struggling a bit too much for my tastes.  He needs to show improvement.
  
• Josh Aliver-In a most disappointing development, Oliver did not play.  I expected him to play because for the first time in a while, he was a participant in practice, considering O'Shoughnessy's torn ACL last week.  But he was not active.  Given the hite Swaim took, I can't see how Oliver does not play next week.
  
• Quentin Williams-Apparently was benched at the end of last week's loss to Carolina.  I did not see him play at all today.
  
• Ryquell Armstead-Saw him get a carry or two, but nothing special
  
• Minshew-see above.  He threw an INT, but the receiver seemed to stop, so I am unsure who was at fault for the INT.
  
• Dontavious Russell-DNP
  
• Wingard-See above
  

8.   I wonder what Khan is thinking considering Ramsey did not play.

9.   While there were some frustrating penalties, it wasn't the usual barrage of flags we always seem to get.  But particularly noteworthy were penalties made by Norwell early on.  He had a holding penalty and a false start.  Taylor needs to play better, but he has the excuse of going against three of the best pass rushers as a rookie.  Norwell doesn't have those crutches, and given his appallingly bad play last week that led to a Minshew fumble, I was hoping he would be better today.

10.  Bottom line-A tough loss, but the defense acquitted itself much better than it did last week against Carolina.  Kamara was controlled, and there weren't many big plays given up in the passing game.  Given that performance, it was a game we needed to win, and it's a shame to have wasted a good defensive performance.  Still, we still have time to bounce back.  But we have to start playing better now.

This team has no identity, nothing it can hang it's hat on.

(10-13-2019, 08:08 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]In the offseason when the schedule was announced, this looked like one of the tougher games of the season.  Even with Brees out, their defense would be a challenge for the team.  Nevertheless, it was disappointing to lose this hard fought game.  My thoughts...

1.  One of the fears I had was that once teams got tape on Minshew, they would begin to adjust and reduce Minshew's effectiveness.  Although the teams coming up in the next few weeks don't have the kind of personnel the Saints offer, it appears they now have the approach to defending Minshew.  The Saints seemed to make it a point to keep Minshew inside the pocket to limit his effectiveness.  Minshew had his worst statistical game as a pro.  Granted, they were helped a good deal with the Jaguars being saddled with horrible field position, but the Saints executed a good defensive game plan.
Smart strategy defensively by the saints.  Will be interesting to see how Flip and Minshew counter this approach when/if other teams are able to employ it. 

2.  The one thing the Jaguars could get going offensively with any degree of success was Leonard Fournette.  He had  between 70-80 yards rushing for the game, and had one really nice run to the left taken away due to a holding call on Will Richardson.  But I think as teams continue to adjust to Minshew as described above, Fournette becomes more important.  Even if Foles returns to the starting lineup, having a credible running game will be key to keeping him upright.
I actually thought we should have focused on using Fournette a bit more in the second half. 

...

4.  To hold the Saints to 13 points is a sign of a good defensive effort.  Two good individual veteran performances from an overall good team performance were turned in by Taven Bryan and Tre Herndon.  Taven Bryan didn't seem to get much playing time, but the action I saw he exploded off the snap and was disruptive, drawing a holding penalty on a play he should have made a tackle for a huge loss.  He already has more explosive and disruptive plays so far this year than he had all of last year.  As for Herndon, I thought he did an outstanding job covering Ted Ginn on vertical routes.  Despite his age, Ginn is still among the fastest in the league, but Herndon provided good coverage against him.

Herndon gave up a couple of catches in man and a couple more in zone, but played well for a backup covering a guy like Ginn much of the time. I think Herndon has a future as a quality nickel for this team or another. 

5.  Hope Swaim and Lee are okay.  Neither one of those injuries looked good.


6.  Wingard had another good special teams play, making a good tackle on punt coverage.
They had him in on a dime package late in the game I noticed. 

...

comments in red 

Good notes as always, Bullseye.

Another good analysis Bullseye. With that said, it was reported that Khan and Ramsey had a "heart to heart" conversation this week and Khan hinted that things will be resolved soon. I take that to mean he now realizes Ramsey is not going to change his mind and a deal must be made. I thought that a deal would be made in the off season, but with Ramsey likely milking his injury further, I now believe a deal will probably be done before the trade deadline. With O'Shaughnessy out for the year, Oliver not participating again and Swaim concussed, our offense is handcuffed. So much of the scheme is dependent on having a good TE and now, the cupboard is bare. The offensive line is still struggling as well. I believe any deal we make for Ramsey must include a solid TE and that is why the Eagles make so much sense as a trade partner. Their secondary was shredded once again and they have 2 very good TE's. I think talks will start up again this week.

I was not a huge fan of Jawaan Taylor at all and stated how much I disliked the selection. I wanted Cody Ford, who is now the starting RT for the Buffalo Bills. As time goes by, I believe we will regret our decision.

This was definitely not Minshew's week, but I still have hope for the kid. This was a big step up in competition and the O-Line did him no favors. With no real safety net at TE, a porous O-Line and his favorite downfield target (Chark) being defended by arguably one of the top 3 cover corners in the NFL (Marshon Lattimore), this offense seemed doomed from the start. I'm not too worried though We have the Bengals coming up and I'm expecting a HUGE day by our entire defensive line. We're gonna have to figure out a way to put points on the board though, because the Bengals still have weapons on defense. If we lose that game, it's definitely time to panic, but I believe we rebound in a big way.

(10-13-2019, 08:08 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]In the offseason when the schedule was announced, this looked like one of the tougher games of the season.  Even with Brees out, their defense would be a challenge for the team.  Nevertheless, it was disappointing to lose this hard fought game.  My thoughts...

1.  One of the fears I had was that once teams got tape on Minshew, they would begin to adjust and reduce Minshew's effectiveness.  Although the teams coming up in the next few weeks don't have the kind of personnel the Saints offer, it appears they now have the approach to defending Minshew.  The Saints seemed to make it a point to keep Minshew inside the pocket to limit his effectiveness.  Minshew had his worst statistical game as a pro.  Granted, they were helped a good deal with the Jaguars being saddled with horrible field position, but the Saints executed a good defensive game plan.

2.  The one thing the Jaguars could get going offensively with any degree of success was Leonard Fournette.  He had  between 70-80 yards rushing for the game, and had one really nice run to the left taken away due to a holding call on Will Richardson.  But I think as teams continue to adjust to Minshew as described above, Fournette becomes more important.  Even if Foles returns to the starting lineup, having a credible running game will be key to keeping him upright.

3.  The Minshew INT wound up being a key turning point in the game, and the field position was another determining factor.  However, second and third downs were yet another big factor.  It seemed too often, the Saints would turn a second and long into a 3rd and short, while too often the Jaguars offense would have a second and long turn into a 3rd and long.  Those sorts of things are often the difference between wins and losses.

Still, we still have time to bounce back.  But we have to start playing better now.

1- Minshew struggled today but he faced a good D line that got pressure and a good secondary that kept coverage and contested catches. He had that early pass that was nearly picked, that seemed to shake him a bit and we struggled moving the ball in the air for most of the game. O was off all game for some reason but we had a nice drive using the run to get us into 3rd and short. 

3- This is really hurting us. We can be so wasteful with downs. Too many times, like you say, we make 2nd and 8 a 3rd and and 8 and teams know your passing. We can really struggle putting a drive of 5-6 first downs together. I'm hoping this work we are putting into the run game will start paying off down the line. Fournette is looking good so far.

I think the next 3 games are all must wins for this season. We need to go on a roll of W's but that's a lot easier said then done. We need some momentum, something to build on. We are a long way from that 3-1 start.

But we have a chance...

My impression was while I am on the train on Minshew, Foles will undoubtedly be named the starter if the Jags are in playoff contention by the time he is healthy. Another poster said it during the game thread, but the Saints took away Minshew's first read and he was shook and rattled the entire game. Obviously, these things happen with a rookie (doesn't matter what round). These are part of the growing pains and he will learn. Foles is way past that learning curve and will give us a much better chance to win against good teams like the one we faced today. Teams have tape on the Stache now, it's going to continue to be incredibly hard for him the rest of the season. We won't be holding good teams to 13 points, we need offense.... and a lot of it... to compete.

Also... I feel like the defense is on a historically BAD pace right now. TWO TURNOVERS IN 6 GAMES? On pace for like 5 turnovers for the entire year... It's really bad. We need a playmaker out there to make a [BLEEP] play. Getting the ball back via punt is good, no doubt, but we REALLY need to try and make some plays to create turnovers.

(10-13-2019, 09:04 PM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ]Also... I feel like the defense is on a historically BAD pace right now. TWO TURNOVERS IN 6 GAMES? On pace for like 5 turnovers for the entire year... It's really bad. We need a playmaker out there to make a [BLEEP] play. Getting the ball back via punt is good, no doubt, but we REALLY need to try and make some plays to create turnovers.

Well, my opinion is it's the zone. And it's not just because were in zone, it's how we play zone coverage.

Often we play the run after the catch than contesting the catch. I see DB's and LB's 4-5yds behind the receiver when he makes the catch and then they engage. Now obviously there are times you play it like that but I've seen us in 3rd and 2 and were dropping back 7 yards. Players seem to be worried about giving up a big play.

And having us leaving the receivers open means the pass rush can never get home or force a bad pass, the QB has an easy out and it may be 4-5 yards but it's better than a sack.

But to get picks you have to jump routes, contest catches. Seattle used to get so many turnovers just batting balls in the air. You have the numbers advantage in that scenario. Nearly every Saints tackle they were ripping at the ball, just trying.

Credit to the Saints defense.  They are an elite unit.   They simply played contain on the defensive line and man to man in the secondary.  They locked down all of our receivers.    Let's look at what Minshew had:

-0 running game. The team averaged less than 4 yards a carry and less than 80 yards rushing.

-0 separation from the receivers.  They primarily played man to man and locked up everyone

-0 help in the tight end position.  We don't have anyone of threat playing tight end right now.

-Pass protection was sketchy all day

-Receivers who just gave up on routes in the middle of the play.

-Some of the poorest average field position I can remember.  It seemed like every Jaguar drive started deep in Saints territory

-

Listening to the after game radio show on 1010, they gathered that the Saints concentrated on taking Minshew's first read. Apparently they figured out that if his first guy is covered, Minshew tends to progress through his reads with increasing desperation. By taking away his second read, he started to panic. The quickly collapsing pocket didn't help. In other words, they capitalized on his rookie-ness.

Like NYC says above, it will be interesting how they overcome the challenges of becoming a successful QB. Minshew is smart and has a tactician's mind. He was overwhelmed by a worthy opponent today, but he'll bounce back.

(10-13-2019, 10:00 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Listening to the after game radio show on 1010, they gathered that the Saints concentrated on taking Minshew's first read. Apparently they figured out that if his first guy is covered, Minshew tends to progress through his reads with increasing desperation. By taking away his second read, he started to panic. The quickly collapsing pocket didn't help. In other words, they capitalized on his rookie-ness.

Like NYC says above, it will be interesting how they overcome the challenges of becoming a successful QB. Minshew is smart and has a tactician's mind. He was overwhelmed by a worthy opponent today, but he'll bounce back.

I agree with you. I know it seems like I've been complaining a lot but it's only because we are close to being a good team and we just keep beating ourselves.

I'm not worried about Minshew. Yes hes going to have rough games but hes doing ok. Oline isn't doing great with pass protection at the moment and I think a W would fix so much

(10-13-2019, 09:41 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-13-2019, 09:04 PM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ]Also... I feel like the defense is on a historically BAD pace right now. TWO TURNOVERS IN 6 GAMES? On pace for like 5 turnovers for the entire year... It's really bad. We need a playmaker out there to make a [BLEEP] play. Getting the ball back via punt is good, no doubt, but we REALLY need to try and make some plays to create turnovers.

Well, my opinion is it's the zone. And it's not just because were in zone, it's how we play zone coverage.

Often we play the run after the catch than contesting the catch. I see DB's and LB's 4-5yds behind the receiver when he makes the catch and then they engage. Now obviously there are times you play it like that but I've seen us in 3rd and 2 and were dropping back 7 yards. Players seem to be worried about giving up a big play.

And having us leaving the receivers open means the pass rush can never get home or force a bad pass, the QB has an easy out and it may be 4-5 yards but it's better than a sack.

But to get picks you have to jump routes, contest catches. Seattle used to get so many turnovers just batting balls in the air. You have the numbers advantage in that scenario. Nearly every Saints tackle they were ripping at the ball, just trying.

Yeah the zone that is being played really doesn't help put players in position to make plays, totally agree. Something has got to drastically change and it has got to be ASAP. Can't keep losing the turnover battle like this. Telvin and Ramsey have a knack for the ball, they create or help create turnovers and right now their absence (whether we want to acknowledge/accept it) is really hurting us right now IMO.

(10-13-2019, 10:00 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Listening to the after game radio show on 1010, they gathered that the Saints concentrated on taking Minshew's first read. Apparently they figured out that if his first guy is covered, Minshew tends to progress through his reads with increasing desperation. By taking away his second read, he started to panic. The quickly collapsing pocket didn't help. In other words, they capitalized on his rookie-ness.

Like NYC says above, it will be interesting how they overcome the challenges of becoming a successful QB. Minshew is smart and has a tactician's mind. He was overwhelmed by a worthy opponent today, but he'll bounce back.

Saints HC Sean Payton literally said it after the game...

He said, their plan going into this game was to contain Minshew. Don't really pass rush him, just keep him inside the pocket and not let him get outside. Basically limit his escape ability/improv ability.

Couple it with playing tight man coverage behind that so he didn't have any easy quick reads. Try and make everything as contested as possible.

The WRs couldn't get much separation all day, and when they did, Minshew clearly didn't see it, or he wasn't decisive enough to hit it. You could clearly tell he was "off" from the very beginning. As well as his receivers, there was a lot of miscommunication.

Pretty elementary really and as we've seen in the past, pretty much zero adjustment from our coaching staff.

We'll see how they can adjust going forward, because you know other teams are going to try and take this same approach after watching today's film.

Granted not having any reliable pass catching TE is clearly a big blow to this Offense. Sad part is, unless they make a trade at TE, I don't see that getting any better any time soon and it'll likely continue to pose a big issue.

(10-13-2019, 09:04 PM)The_Franchise_QB Wrote: [ -> ]My impression was while I am on the train on Minshew, Foles will undoubtedly be named the starter if the Jags are in playoff contention by the time he is healthy. Another poster said it during the game thread, but the Saints took away Minshew's first read and he was shook and rattled the entire game. 

That might have been me.  I can't remember many plays where he was able to throw to his first read.  And the few times he did, the WR seemed to be blanketed.  It's one thing to gameplan to take away a guy's first read, it's another to actually do it.  It's almost like they knew the play and where we wanted to go practically every snap.  It's possible our playbook has been pared back as Minshew is still a rookie.  But if so and if defenses have begun to figure out our tendencies, OC and Minshew will need to head back to the drawing board.  

I'm still on the Minshew bandwagon as I dont think his first 5 games were a fluke.  But as defenses adjust to him, he'll need to adjust back.

I disagree about Foles coming back as the starter.

I don’t think the Saints did anything differently than any other defense tried to do. The difference is that they executed their plan to perfection. They played hard every single drive and never seemed to let up. I think this idea that they have tape on him so they know how to beat him is overblown.

Our OL played poorly, the receivers and Minshew were on two different pages, and Minshew couldn’t overcome it. I don’t think this means they figured him out. I just think that we didn’t have anyone playing well on offense against a very good defense.

I know they are great, but it's slightly worrisome that Taylor is struggling with the Watt and Jordan types. He was supposed to maul them while struggling with the Von Miller speed rushers.

Still, he gets a pass for now...but my well noted pre draft fears have not been even close to assuaged yet.

(10-13-2019, 11:13 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I know they are great, but it's slightly worrisome that Taylor is struggling with the Watt and Jordan types. He was supposed to maul them while struggling with the Von Miller speed rushers.

Still, he gets a pass for now...but my well noted pre draft fears have not been even close to assuaged yet.

Dude, there's players on their second contracts that haven't assuaged your pre draft fears lol.

(10-13-2019, 11:17 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-13-2019, 11:13 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I know they are great, but it's slightly worrisome that Taylor is struggling with the Watt and Jordan types. He was supposed to maul them while struggling with the Von Miller speed rushers.

Still, he gets a pass for now...but my well noted pre draft fears have not been even close to assuaged yet.

Dude, there's players on their second contracts that haven't assuaged your pre draft fears lol.

On a case by case basis, absolutely true.

Very young and inexperienced on the offense. We have a combination of things happening....

Paired down playbook
Average Offensive Line
Injured TEs
Average Coaching

Lots of chicken and egg things going. What is causing which thing. We just don't have a functional team. Up and down play and not ready to compete. We will learn more as we go. I think we will struggle to win games but keep seeing glimpses of what could be.

(10-13-2019, 11:17 PM)Senor Fantastico Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-13-2019, 11:13 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I know they are great, but it's slightly worrisome that Taylor is struggling with the Watt and Jordan types. He was supposed to maul them while struggling with the Von Miller speed rushers.

Still, he gets a pass for now...but my well noted pre draft fears have not been even close to assuaged yet.

Dude, there's players on their second contracts that haven't assuaged your pre draft fears lol.

Wait have you forgot? He said Vic Beasley was supposed to be like one of the greatest players/pass rushers ever after his first two seasons... His spider charts were nuts etc etc..

I seen multiple clips on twitter of Taylor completely taking Watt out of the play in that first match up (but lets not forget the fact that Watt did little to nothing in that game). Lets not let that get in the way of opinions. A rookie in his 6th start should obviously stone wall everybody. Especially a 9th year All-Pro Vet in Jordan who has 77 career sacks