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I like Higgins too, but he doesn't complement what we have as well as Ruggs I don't think and he isn't going to stretch the defense to open up room for LF and underneath routes like Ruggs would.

(01-20-2020, 12:02 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I like Higgins too, but he doesn't complement what we have as well as Ruggs I don't think and he isn't going to stretch the defense to open up room for LF and underneath routes like Ruggs would.

I agree. I think we need speed opposite Chark to really open up another aspect of the offense.

I don't disagree the impact Ruggs could potentially have but we already have one of the fastest WR units in the league.

I'd rather have Shenault personally even though I'm unsure of how much I wanna take one at #20

(01-20-2020, 12:59 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]we already have one of the fastest WR units in the league.

we do?

(01-20-2020, 01:03 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 12:59 PM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]we already have one of the fastest WR units in the league.

we do?

Chark, Conley, and Westbrook all in 4.3's

(01-20-2020, 01:11 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:03 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]we do?

Chark, Conley, and Westbrook all in 4.3's

Weird those 4.3s aren't translating to the field. Separation isn't there, no one is taking the top off the defense (some of that could be offensive scheme and play calling I'm sure.)
Westbrook is mainly used in the middle of the field. And Conley wasn't enough of a threat for defenses to not double up or shade on Chark.

(01-20-2020, 01:25 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:11 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]Chark, Conley, and Westbrook all in 4.3's

Weird those 4.3s aren't translating to the field. Separation isn't there, no one is taking the top off the defense (some of that could be offensive scheme and play calling I'm sure.)
Westbrook is mainly used in the middle of the field. And Conley wasn't enough of a threat for defenses to not double up or shade on Chark.

I think you're being fooled a little bit by badly timed passes due to pressure and the high number of improvised routes due to Minshew's scrambling. 

Because these receivers did in fact gain separation at a very good rate. 

Westbrook's next gen stats show an avg separation of 3.2 yards. Equal to Tyreek Hill on the year.

Chark came in at 2.8, and Conley came in at 2.2.  
(Other players in the 2.2 -2.8 range include Amari Cooper,  Alshon Jeffrey and Emmanuel Sanders) 

Now clearly there were times when these guys were covered well, but I think if you go back and look at where they are at the top of their routes in the all 22,  you'd be surprised to see them open regularly. 
(with the N.O. game being the outlier showing much less of that)

(01-20-2020, 02:48 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:25 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Weird those 4.3s aren't translating to the field. Separation isn't there, no one is taking the top off the defense (some of that could be offensive scheme and play calling I'm sure.)
Westbrook is mainly used in the middle of the field. And Conley wasn't enough of a threat for defenses to not double up or shade on Chark.

I think you're being fooled a little bit by badly timed passes due to pressure and the high number of improvised routes due to Minshew's scrambling. 

Because these receivers did in fact gain separation at a very good rate. 

Westbrook's next gen stats show an avg separation of 3.2 yards. Equal to Tyreek Hill on the year.

Chark came in at 2.8, and Conley came in at 2.2.  
(Other players in the 2.2 -2.8 range include Amari Cooper,  Alshon Jeffrey and Emmanuel Sanders) 

Now clearly there were times when these guys were covered well, but I think if you go back and look at where they are at the top of their routes in the all 22,  you'd be surprised to see them open regularly. 
(with the N.O. game being the outlier showing much less of that)

Damn... I just remember hearing all the whining from the boards about how our guys weren't getting open and a few people claiming we had no "real #1 WR" on the team.
Granted, some of this was over on the BCC boards. 
And admittedly, I stopped watching the games after the clots game in November. Just became no fun to watch for me. And that's why I watch football. But I knew from what I did watch that Chark was legit and people hating on him were misguided to say the least. But I was led to believe, and ultimately convinced, our WRs lack speed and the ability to separate. Shame on me for believing cry baby fans that just love to [BLEEP] lol

This makes me want WR even less in early rounds, where I was kind of coming around to the idea of taking one at 9 if the top choices of Brown, Thomas, and Okudah were gone.
As suspected the bigger issue seems to be poor QB play (Foles) rookie QB play (sometimes Minshew missed open guys) and poor OL protection not allowing plays to take their natural shape.

(01-20-2020, 02:48 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 01:25 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ]Weird those 4.3s aren't translating to the field. Separation isn't there, no one is taking the top off the defense (some of that could be offensive scheme and play calling I'm sure.)
Westbrook is mainly used in the middle of the field. And Conley wasn't enough of a threat for defenses to not double up or shade on Chark.

I think you're being fooled a little bit by badly timed passes due to pressure and the high number of improvised routes due to Minshew's scrambling. 

Because these receivers did in fact gain separation at a very good rate. 

Westbrook's next gen stats show an avg separation of 3.2 yards. Equal to Tyreek Hill on the year.

Chark came in at 2.8, and Conley came in at 2.2.  
(Other players in the 2.2 -2.8 range include Amari Cooper,  Alshon Jeffrey and Emmanuel Sanders) 

Now clearly there were times when these guys were covered well, but I think if you go back and look at where they are at the top of their routes in the all 22,  you'd be surprised to see them open regularly. 
(with the N.O. game being the outlier showing much less of that)

It all boils down to giving Minshew, who is actually a natural pocket passer, a pocket with time to throw. Yes, he can make things happen when things break down and that's exciting - but we need an offensive line that can give him time to properly go through his reads - and his speed at doing that should increase with more reps in a clean pocket.

(01-19-2020, 11:02 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Well Ross without the worst injury list I've ever seen is an offense changing player too so idk what your point is...

....this is exactly what scares me away from these guys where speed is the majority of their resume....one hit, and they lose everything that makes them worthwhile.

Was there ever any word on what happened to Ruggs in the bowl game? Looked like an ankle or foot injury, and that is the kiss of death in my book.

(01-21-2020, 11:10 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:02 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Well Ross without the worst injury list I've ever seen is an offense changing player too so idk what your point is...

....this is exactly what scares me away from these guys where speed is the majority of their resume....one hit, and they lose everything that makes them worthwhile.

Was there ever any word on what happened to Ruggs in the bowl game? Looked like an ankle or foot injury, and that is the kiss of death in my book.

The kiss of death on a WR is an ankle or foot injury?

(01-21-2020, 11:08 AM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-20-2020, 02:48 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're being fooled a little bit by badly timed passes due to pressure and the high number of improvised routes due to Minshew's scrambling. 

Because these receivers did in fact gain separation at a very good rate. 

Westbrook's next gen stats show an avg separation of 3.2 yards. Equal to Tyreek Hill on the year.

Chark came in at 2.8, and Conley came in at 2.2.  
(Other players in the 2.2 -2.8 range include Amari Cooper,  Alshon Jeffrey and Emmanuel Sanders) 

Now clearly there were times when these guys were covered well, but I think if you go back and look at where they are at the top of their routes in the all 22,  you'd be surprised to see them open regularly. 
(with the N.O. game being the outlier showing much less of that)

It all boils down to giving Minshew, who is actually a natural pocket passer, a pocket with time to throw. Yes, he can make things happen when things break down and that's exciting - but we need an offensive line that can give him time to properly go through his reads - and his speed at doing that should increase with more reps in a clean pocket.

I agree 100%.

(01-21-2020, 11:10 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2020, 11:02 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Well Ross without the worst injury list I've ever seen is an offense changing player too so idk what your point is...

....this is exactly what scares me away from these guys where speed is the majority of their resume....one hit, and they lose everything that makes them worthwhile.

Was there ever any word on what happened to Ruggs in the bowl game? Looked like an ankle or foot injury, and that is the kiss of death in my book.

There are injuries, and there is what John Ross had. He already had two meniscus, an ACL, and shoulder labrum surgeries before he even declared for the draft. Can't really compare anyone else to that.

(01-21-2020, 11:19 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2020, 11:10 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]....this is exactly what scares me away from these guys where speed is the majority of their resume....one hit, and they lose everything that makes them worthwhile.

Was there ever any word on what happened to Ruggs in the bowl game? Looked like an ankle or foot injury, and that is the kiss of death in my book.

The kiss of death on a WR is an ankle or foot injury?

Considering the number of receivers out there, I prefer the guys that aren't going to be nagged by the most important part of their body to their craft.

remember Marqiuse Lee? what happened to him in his bowl game? injured his leg or ankle. We picked him up, and I think he's played one season from start to finish in his career. How's Ross' career been?

There's plenty of guys out there with speed, if all you seek is speed. Maybe I'm too risk-averse, but I prefer to downgrade guys who are already showing signs that the physical nature of the game may sideline them. Let someone else take them a round too early to find out if it's the first of many injuries to come.

(01-22-2020, 10:11 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-21-2020, 11:19 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The kiss of death on a WR is an ankle or foot injury?

Considering the number of receivers out there, I prefer the guys that aren't going to be nagged by the most important part of their body to their craft.

remember Marqiuse Lee? what happened to him in his bowl game? injured his leg or ankle. We picked him up, and I think he's played one season from start to finish in his career. How's Ross' career been?

There's plenty of guys out there with speed, if all you seek is speed. Maybe I'm too risk-averse, but I prefer to downgrade guys who are already showing signs that the physical nature of the game may sideline them. Let someone else take them a round too early to find out if it's the first of many injuries to come.

Lee and Ross have had a plethora of various injuries a lot more serious than just an ankle or foot twinge.

It doesn't make any sense to downgrade someone that harshly for a very minor injury considering A) it doesn't mean anything for future injuries and B) all of these guys play banged up all the time. 

It's quite an illogical stance

(01-22-2020, 10:16 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-22-2020, 10:11 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Considering the number of receivers out there, I prefer the guys that aren't going to be nagged by the most important part of their body to their craft.

remember Marqiuse Lee? what happened to him in his bowl game? injured his leg or ankle. We picked him up, and I think he's played one season from start to finish in his career. How's Ross' career been?

There's plenty of guys out there with speed, if all you seek is speed. Maybe I'm too risk-averse, but I prefer to downgrade guys who are already showing signs that the physical nature of the game may sideline them. Let someone else take them a round too early to find out if it's the first of many injuries to come.

Lee and Ross have had a plethora of various injuries a lot more serious than just an ankle or foot twinge.

It doesn't make any sense to downgrade someone that harshly for a very minor injury considering A) it doesn't mean anything for future injuries and B) all of these guys play banged up all the time. 

It's quite an illogical stance

OK, I'll change my personal preference. Thank you for showing me the light.

So did anyone actually respond to the question of what happened to Ruggs in that bowl game?

Kiper's first mock is out. Kinlaw at 9 and Kmet at 20. Wouldn't hate Kinlaw at 9 except that Becton and Wills Jr go at 10 and 11. Kmet at 20 is a hard pass to me period. I doubt I'd even take him with our 2nd rounder. Give me Wills Jr or Becton at 9 and Josh Jones at 20. Kick Cam and Jawaan inside. Monster OL.

Bengals: Burrow
Redskins: Young
Lions: Jeff Okudah
Giants: Isiah Simmons
Dolphins: Tua
Chargers: Justin Herbert
Panthers: Derrick Brown
Cardinals: Andrew Thomas
Jaguars: Javon Kinlaw
Browns: Mekhi Becton
Jets: Jedrick Wills
Raiders: CeeDee Lamb
Colts: Jerry Jeudy
Bucs: Tristan Wirfs
Broncos: Henry Ruggs III
Falcons: AJ Epensa
Cowboys: CJ Henderson
Dolphins: K’lavon Chaisson
Raiders: Kenneth Murray
Jaguars: Cole Kmet
Eagles: Tee Higgins
Bills: Laviska Shenault Jr
Patriots: Xavier McKinney
Saints: Jordan Love
Vikings: Josh Jones
Dolphins: D’Andre Swift
Seahawks: Zack Baun
Ravens: Patrick Queen
Titans: Yetur Gross-Matos
Packers: KJ Hamler
49ers: Grant Delpit
Chiefs: Noah Igbinoghene

(01-24-2020, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Kiper's first mock is out. Kinlaw at 9 and Kmet at 20. Wouldn't hate Kinlaw at 9 except that Becton and Wills Jr go at 10 and 11. Kmet at 20 is a hard pass to me period. I doubt I'd even take him with our 2nd rounder. Give me Wills Jr or Becton at 9 and Josh Jones at 20. Kick Cam and Jawaan inside. Monster OL.

Bengals: Burrow
Redskins: Young
Lions: Jeff Okudah
Giants: Isiah Simmons
Dolphins: Tua
Chargers: Justin Herbert
Panthers: Derrick Brown
Cardinals: Andrew Thomas
Jaguars: Javon Kinlaw
Browns: Mekhi Becton
Jets: Jedrick Wills
Raiders: CeeDee Lamb
Colts: Jerry Jeudy
Bucs: Tristan Wirfs
Broncos: Henry Ruggs III
Falcons: AJ Epensa
Cowboys: CJ Henderson
Dolphins: K’lavon Chaisson
Raiders: Kenneth Murray
Jaguars: Cole Kmet
Eagles: Tee Higgins
Bills: Laviska Shenault Jr
Patriots: Xavier McKinney
Saints: Jordan Love
Vikings: Josh Jones
Dolphins: D’Andre Swift
Seahawks: Zack Baun
Ravens: Patrick Queen
Titans: Yetur Gross-Matos
Packers: KJ Hamler
49ers: Grant Delpit
Chiefs: Noah Igbinoghene

If the board fell this way, I wouldn't hate your draft. My issue is that I still think Taylor can be good. I'm very on the fence about Cam.

However, I think I would roll with Kinlaw and then Josh Jones. KMet at 20 is awful value and would be a terrible pick.

(01-24-2020, 01:19 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-24-2020, 12:17 PM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]Kiper's first mock is out. Kinlaw at 9 and Kmet at 20. Wouldn't hate Kinlaw at 9 except that Becton and Wills Jr go at 10 and 11. Kmet at 20 is a hard pass to me period. I doubt I'd even take him with our 2nd rounder. Give me Wills Jr or Becton at 9 and Josh Jones at 20. Kick Cam and Jawaan inside. Monster OL.

Bengals: Burrow
Redskins: Young
Lions: Jeff Okudah
Giants: Isiah Simmons
Dolphins: Tua
Chargers: Justin Herbert
Panthers: Derrick Brown
Cardinals: Andrew Thomas
Jaguars: Javon Kinlaw
Browns: Mekhi Becton
Jets: Jedrick Wills
Raiders: CeeDee Lamb
Colts: Jerry Jeudy
Bucs: Tristan Wirfs
Broncos: Henry Ruggs III
Falcons: AJ Epensa
Cowboys: CJ Henderson
Dolphins: K’lavon Chaisson
Raiders: Kenneth Murray
Jaguars: Cole Kmet
Eagles: Tee Higgins
Bills: Laviska Shenault Jr
Patriots: Xavier McKinney
Saints: Jordan Love
Vikings: Josh Jones
Dolphins: D’Andre Swift
Seahawks: Zack Baun
Ravens: Patrick Queen
Titans: Yetur Gross-Matos
Packers: KJ Hamler
49ers: Grant Delpit
Chiefs: Noah Igbinoghene

If the board fell this way, I wouldn't hate your draft. My issue is that I still think Taylor can be good. I'm very on the fence about Cam.

However, I think I would roll with Kinlaw and then Josh Jones. KMet at 20 is awful value and would be a terrible pick.

Jawaan Taylor is a pretty good RT..... not sure why people think otherwise.

(01-24-2020, 01:49 PM)TrivialPursuit Wrote: [ -> ]Jawaan Taylor is a pretty good RT..... not sure why people think otherwise.

His 14 penalties were 3rd worst in the NFL and his 8 sacks given up were 4th worst (I know pressures allowed is better but I don't have those). I think he could get a little better with experience, but the main problem is that his feet are just too heavy vs speed rushers and that isn't getting better with experience.

It's not a major priority to replace him at RT (yet) like it is Cam with LT, but if a really good tackle prospect is available we could kill two birds with one stone.