Last year was rough, and probably the roughest part of it was seeing our once-proud defense get run around, run over, run down, run up on.... you get the picture, opponents did a whole lotta running on us.
Obviously that needs to improve, we can all see that. But the good news is that run D is an area that can be improved relatively rapidly.
In 2018 the Oakland Raiders were 30th against the run, in 2019 they were 6th. The New York Jets were 26th in 2018, 2nd in 2019. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers were 24th in 2018, and 1st in 2019. Those teams all invested in their run D to various degrees. It is also important to note that having elite run D didn't exactly lead to a successful season for any of them.
We should actually be able to improve to an adequate level in this area without having to spend multiple early draft picks and invest important cap space. Look around the league at some of the better run-stoppers, both at LB and DT. You'll see many of them were drafted later, or bought in as reasonable priced FAs. This is exactly the kind of approach we need.
It's probably fair to say we have neglected the area of run defense over the last few years, and probably overlooked the importance of Dareus. This offseason there should definitely be a focus on improving this area in every way; personnel, coaching and scheme. However, we should not feel the need to over-correct and throw multiple high draft picks at a problem that can be solved a lot cheaper and a lot easier.
Even in an interview with Calasis he admitted that this was gis worat yer as a pro. Missing multiple gaps and not just him but many otgers too.
I think in this situation it's more the players then the coaching.
Not identifying the play quick enough.
(01-20-2020, 01:50 PM)icey14 Wrote: [ -> ]Even in an interview with Calasis he admitted that this was gis worat yer as a pro. Missing multiple gaps and not just him but many otgers too.
I think in this situation it's more the players then the coaching.
Not identifying the play quick enough.
But if they can't identify the play, the gap, the man, etc., doesn't that indicate coaching? It's almost always both/and rather than either/or. But lack of discipline and execution belie poor preparation. And that's coaching. Therefore, competent coaching should lead to fewer bad performances.
I'm not freaking out about the run defense. But I'm damn sure not going to ignore the lack of talent and depth at nose tackle and inside linebacker. Add talent to the depth chart at those spots and the run D will get back on track.
The coaching element is a factor too, especially the linebacker play.
(01-20-2020, 02:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not freaking out about the run defense. But I'm damn sure not going to ignore the lack of talent and depth at nose tackle and inside linebacker. Add talent to the depth chart at those spots and the run D will get back on track.
The coaching element is a factor too, especially the linebacker play.
Agreed. But Taven Bryan at 3T has not been consistent to say the least. Talent and depth there must also be addressed.
(01-20-2020, 03:38 PM)ATLjag Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2020, 02:28 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not freaking out about the run defense. But I'm damn sure not going to ignore the lack of talent and depth at nose tackle and inside linebacker. Add talent to the depth chart at those spots and the run D will get back on track.
The coaching element is a factor too, especially the linebacker play.
Agreed. But Taven Bryan at 3T has not been consistent to say the least. Talent and depth there must also be addressed.
I'd call it a lesser priority to NT, LB, CB, and FS right now. Taven is holding it down OK - especially when he's next to a nose as good as Dareus.
I'd just find some competition for the rotational guys that spell Taven when he comes out.
Bryan is a project after all, and if he's not showing up more in 2020, you can upgrade him in 2021.
(01-20-2020, 03:52 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2020, 03:38 PM)ATLjag Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed. But Taven Bryan at 3T has not been consistent to say the least. Talent and depth there must also be addressed.
I'd call it a lesser priority to NT, LB, CB, and FS right now. Taven is holding it down OK - especially when he's next to a nose as good as Dareus.
I'd just find some competition for the rotational guys that spell Taven when he comes out.
Bryan is a project after all, and if he's not showing up more in 2020, you can upgrade him in 2021.
Taven Bryan... a player the fans love to hate because of his draft position.
His first year they played him as a backup to the big end, then moved him back to his more natural spot at the 3T.
He really improved quite a bit as the year progressed imo. Could we upgrade? Probably.
But as you say... we have bigger priorities... NT, LB, CB, OL, FS, TE (in no particular order) all are bigger needs than 3T, DE, WR (positions I see us mocked to drafting a lot in early rounds)
Interesting that we think about the run defense in the "modern era".
After all, in the "modern era" it's all about the passing game. Yet the 49'ers are going to the Super Bowl after just 8 pass attempts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs and convincingly beating the Packers. You can't win in the "modern NFL" by running the ball and having good defense. That approach is "antiquated". At least that is what many believe.
The game hasn't changed as much as people believe over the last 30 or 40 years. Yes rules have been changed in the name of "player safety", but for the most part it's still the same game. Move the ball 10 yards to get a first down. Move the ball across the goal line to earn a touchdown.
It doesn't matter how it's done. The problem is that the "modern fan" wants to see the "exciting long passes" in order to accomplish the goal of the game rather than long drives and running the ball.
(01-20-2020, 04:48 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting that we think about the run defense in the "modern era".
After all, in the "modern era" it's all about the passing game. Yet the 49'ers are going to the Super Bowl after just 8 pass attempts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs and convincingly beating the Packers. You can't win in the "modern NFL" by running the ball and having good defense. That approach is "antiquated". At least that is what many believe.
The game hasn't changed as much as people believe over the last 30 or 40 years. Yes rules have been changed in the name of "player safety", but for the most part it's still the same game. Move the ball 10 yards to get a first down. Move the ball across the goal line to earn a touchdown.
It doesn't matter how it's done. The problem is that the "modern fan" wants to see the "exciting long passes" in order to accomplish the goal of the game rather than long drives and running the ball.
I think "run the ball and play defense" works fine in today's modern NFL with the caveat that you still have the threat of a passing attack. Jimmy G hasn't needed to throw it a bunch these playoffs but proved in week 14 and 17 he can sling it with the best of em.
The tacks tried to run the ball and play defense and eventually came up short. Not putting it all on Tannehill... but he's no Jimmy G.
Jags in 2017 did the whole run the ball and play strong D. And eventually were undone by having Bortles at QB (or at least coordinators afraid to call a better game, because of Bortles at QB)
I'm thinking Jimmy G is slinging it more in the SB than he has had to so far.
That D is good but the speed of the Chiefs offense creates its own issues and mismatches for defenses.
For what it's worth, KC was bottom third in rush yards per game (they use the short passing game to backs to compliment it however) and bottom third in rush defense.
And still made the Superbowl. Speed kills. And really good QBs trump really good run games, imo.
(01-20-2020, 04:48 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting that we think about the run defense in the "modern era".
After all, in the "modern era" it's all about the passing game. Yet the 49'ers are going to the Super Bowl after just 8 pass attempts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs and convincingly beating the Packers. You can't win in the "modern NFL" by running the ball and having good defense. That approach is "antiquated". At least that is what many believe.
The game hasn't changed as much as people believe over the last 30 or 40 years. Yes rules have been changed in the name of "player safety", but for the most part it's still the same game. Move the ball 10 yards to get a first down. Move the ball across the goal line to earn a touchdown.
It doesn't matter how it's done. The problem is that the "modern fan" wants to see the "exciting long passes" in order to accomplish the goal of the game rather than long drives and running the ball.
The tacks couldn't win with Henry and didn't have the QB to keep up with Mahomes yesterday. The term "complimentary" football has been tossed around everywhere this season. That's all it boils down to. I don't care if they run it or throw it. Just do it effectively and act like you know what the hell you're doing with the football in just enough games to finish above .500.
As good as the 49ERS ran the football against the Packers. I mostly saw that front four absolutely hammering Aaron Rodgers into the ground and harassing him when they needed to get it done. Green Bay sucks against the running game anyway. They were 23rd against it all year. They had 10 games this season where they allowed well over 100 yards on the ground.
Shanahan schemed up against it. Mike Pettine got schooled. Defense did the rest. If it's anything we've seen over the years regardless of this era or that era? Defense wins Championships.
The Tacks screwed up by taking Henry off the field depending on down and distance. 2nd and 7? The most dominant runner in the NFL goes trotting off the field. Great strategy.
(01-20-2020, 05:23 PM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (01-20-2020, 04:48 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting that we think about the run defense in the "modern era".
After all, in the "modern era" it's all about the passing game. Yet the 49'ers are going to the Super Bowl after just 8 pass attempts in the Divisional Round of the playoffs and convincingly beating the Packers. You can't win in the "modern NFL" by running the ball and having good defense. That approach is "antiquated". At least that is what many believe.
The game hasn't changed as much as people believe over the last 30 or 40 years. Yes rules have been changed in the name of "player safety", but for the most part it's still the same game. Move the ball 10 yards to get a first down. Move the ball across the goal line to earn a touchdown.
It doesn't matter how it's done. The problem is that the "modern fan" wants to see the "exciting long passes" in order to accomplish the goal of the game rather than long drives and running the ball.
I think "run the ball and play defense" works fine in today's modern NFL with the caveat that you still have the threat of a passing attack. Jimmy G hasn't needed to throw it a bunch these playoffs but proved in week 14 and 17 he can sling it with the best of em.
The tacks tried to run the ball and play defense and eventually came up short. Not putting it all on Tannehill... but he's no Jimmy G.
Jags in 2017 did the whole run the ball and play strong D. And eventually were undone by having Bortles at QB (or at least coordinators afraid to call a better game, because of Bortles at QB)
...
...
Comparing tack and niners:
The tacks defense is not on the same tier as the niners' defense.
(avg 430 yards allowed per game compared to 252)
The niners run offense also has its advantages to the tacks run game.
If there's a "run the ball and play D" model out there at the moment (and I don't necessarily advocate that) it's the niners and not the tacks IMO.
Find a NT. Find a MLB. Run defense = solved.
Find a LT. Find a LG. Find a RG. Find a competent backup for C and RT. OL solved.
See why I place a higher priority on one than I do the other? If the right nose tackle is there at nine, draft him for God's sake, but if there's an OT prospect who fits the planet theory there instead, fix the OL and don't get Minshew turned into David Carr.
(01-21-2020, 10:44 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Find a NT. Find a MLB. Run defense = solved.
Find a LT. Find a LG. Find a RG. Find a competent backup for C and RT. OL solved.
See why I place a higher priority on one than I do the other? If the right nose tackle is there at nine, draft him for God's sake, but if there's an OT prospect who fits the planet theory there instead, fix the OL and don't get Minshew turned into David Carr.
Minshew won't be Carr no matter what. He's just a different dude. I don't see him being rattled by being banged around a bit and has proven he can move and make plays outside the pocket when protection breaks down.
To your point though. Yes... We should absolutely draft Brown at 9 UNLESS Thomas is available (he shouldn't be, being the best OT in the class)
But there are other options at OT that should be available around 20 perhaps (Benton, Houston, Wirfs maybe)
I don't see us replacing Norwell this year. I think if Shatley is open to coming back on a cheap deal he's a pretty competent backup swing lineman.
Drafting a stud LT and moving Robinson to G may be just enough to "fix" the OL in the short term.
But in the event we miss out on the sure-fire LT. We may be best suited getting the best OG in the draft (or a center and moving Linder to guard) and keeping our fingers crossed that Robinson plays better fully removed from ACL recovery.
The run defense is a coaching and personnel issue. Wash doesn't know how to teach run fits not design his fronts to be sound Vs rushers...that isn't changing.
Personnel wise yes a new nose and LB will help a lot but also if they are rookies they are most likely not going to impact anything. Likewise with Oline (see Jawaan)
(01-21-2020, 10:53 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The run defense is a coaching and personnel issue. Wash doesn't know how to teach run fits not design his fronts to be sound Vs rushers...that isn't changing.
Personnel wise yes a new nose and LB will help a lot but also if they are rookies they are most likely not going to impact anything. Likewise with Oline (see Jawaan)
Agreed, with the exception of if they were to draft Brown at 9. A DT taken in the top 10 better start impacting things instantly, and usually they do (see Quinnen Williams this year and the Jets run D).
Personally I would like to see them bring in a bunch of big dudes on reasonable contracts in FA and figure out what fits best at DT and LB.
(01-21-2020, 11:34 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (01-21-2020, 10:53 AM)JackCity Wrote: [ -> ]The run defense is a coaching and personnel issue. Wash doesn't know how to teach run fits not design his fronts to be sound Vs rushers...that isn't changing.
Personnel wise yes a new nose and LB will help a lot but also if they are rookies they are most likely not going to impact anything. Likewise with Oline (see Jawaan)
Agreed, with the exception of if they were to draft Brown at 9. A DT taken in the top 10 better start impacting things instantly, and usually they do (see Quinnen Williams this year and the Jets run D).
Personally I would like to see them bring in a bunch of big dudes on reasonable contracts in FA and figure out what fits best at DT and LB.
Brown would be someone I can see being an impact run defender early enough for sure.
Should note that the jets vast improvement in the run game was more due to a new scheme and new coaching with Gregg Williams which sells out to stop the run , even if Quinnen played decent
(01-21-2020, 10:53 AM)Kane Wrote: [ -> ] (01-21-2020, 10:44 AM)TJBender Wrote: [ -> ]Find a NT. Find a MLB. Run defense = solved.
Find a LT. Find a LG. Find a RG. Find a competent backup for C and RT. OL solved.
See why I place a higher priority on one than I do the other? If the right nose tackle is there at nine, draft him for God's sake, but if there's an OT prospect who fits the planet theory there instead, fix the OL and don't get Minshew turned into David Carr.
Minshew won't be Carr no matter what. He's just a different dude. I don't see him being rattled by being banged around a bit and has proven he can move and make plays outside the pocket when protection breaks down.
To your point though. Yes... We should absolutely draft Brown at 9 UNLESS Thomas is available (he shouldn't be, being the best OT in the class)
But there are other options at OT that should be available around 20 perhaps (Benton, Houston, Wirfs maybe)
I don't see us replacing Norwell this year. I think if Shatley is open to coming back on a cheap deal he's a pretty competent backup swing lineman.
Drafting a stud LT and moving Robinson to G may be just enough to "fix" the OL in the short term.
But in the event we miss out on the sure-fire LT. We may be best suited getting the best OG in the draft (or a center and moving Linder to guard) and keeping our fingers crossed that Robinson plays better fully removed from ACL recovery.
Re: Norwell, I still think there are two big things in his favor in terms of why he may yet work out here. One is that last year, he was basically the LG and the LT, because Cam was little more than a stop sign that occasionally held, jumped or got into a fight. He also had to cover some for a gimpy Linder who, while still probably the most consistently good player on the line last year, wasn't playing at 100% most of the season and it showed.
Two is what one of the Panthers said following that game. They were used to Norwell playing a certain way, and he wasn't doing that at all. I remain unconvinced that Marrone and Warhop haven't shoehorned him into playing a way that makes him less effective, and if so, that's further evidence in favor of Warhop's being fired. Which probably won't happen at this point #becausejaguars.