First, let me start by clearly stating my thesis. The demonstrations themselves DISPROVE the idea of systemic racism. The argument made by those in the streets is that the country is hopelessly and systemically racist. That level of racism is expressed even to the extreme of letting a black man die and not valuing his life the same as a life of a person with different skin color. Based on what we have seen in the streets, that is just not True.
Almost every major corporation in the country has reached out to make some form of solidarity with the protestors and agreeing that the country is racist. Almost every major celebrity. I have seen one CEO have to resign because he didn’t create an “anti-racist” culture. When something bad happens to a person of color you can get almost half the country to put up a black screen on their Facebook page. In the face of looting in the streets, being assaulted, hit with bricks, corrosive liquids, being spit on, shot at, killed, etc. do you see some roving band of police officers out there where they could justifiably hurt hundreds of people they are accused of hating? No.
When a white supremacist group has 50 people meet in a hotel room there is more press showing up to talk about how evil they are than people in attendance. When they try to march down the street, they are (rightfully) denounced as racists and shouted down. Richard Spencer, David Duke, Etc. These guys are punch lines. Who among them can get any kind of sit down or access to mainstream conservative culture? None of them. I’m a millennial, to those in my generation, did anyone in your high school class actually think white nationalism was cool? Mine didn’t!
This is a fallen world. Unfortunately, bad things can happen to anyone. There can come a time when anyone can befall the tyranny of evil men. The fact that there are some in society that prey on the innocent is no more an indictment on society than the actions of one person are an indictment against their race! When George Floyd passed away there was universal condemnation of the tactics used. There were universal cries for those who perpetrated the crime to face justice. Is that really a system that does not value people of color? The same system that elected the Black Attorney bringing justice in the case? Do you really believe that? Was ANYONE making the argument “hey, he’s not one of us… he got what he deserves!” “Hey, he might not have been doing anything then, but you know THOSE PEOPLE would have done something eventually?”
But jj, that could only happen to a black Man. Anyone who thinks that, go search for the video of Tony Tempa. I’m sorry, but as an AMERICAN I don’t have anything to apologize for!
In as far as black America now having a significant voice in the national conversation, you're right. In as far as that means that racism is now less of a pernicious force in society than it was, I also think you're right. Those things are tied together; black America is voicing their grievances so loudly because they are now in a position where they can do, partly because the vast majority of America is now ready and willing to listen.
Where you are tragically wrong is your assumption that because black Americans now have the power to voice their grievances, that somehow invalidates those grievances instantly. There are still many many areas of life in America where racism still rears it's ugly head.
You love to use the economic growth of black communities after the civil war as further evidence to disprove the idea that America has racism at it's core. Are you ignoring the starting point there? It's not like black communities in America had anywhere to go but up after hundreds of years of slavery.
Each incremental step on the path to equality has been met with opposition from white America. The civil rights movement was such a monumental struggle because of the overwhelming opposition it faced. At that point, black America had enough of a voice to secure changes in the legal foundation of the country to ensure, in the eyes of the law, they had the basic human rights that the declaration of independence claimed to be based on. Do you think the leaders of the civil rights movement then suddenly believed that they had ended racism in America, and that they could sit back and rest on their laurels? Of course not, they knew that was just another incremental step in a long long battle to end the deeply ingrained racism that continued, and continues to exist in America. I believe we are further down that path today, and the shift in dialogue we have seen over the last two weeks has been monumental, but it's still only another incremental step. Do I believe all problems that black communities face in America are the direct result of racism in society? No, I do not, but I do believe racism is still a pernicious enough force that it has a significant effect on how society is structured, and the daily lives of people who have to face that reality in society.
And I know how you will respond to me; by demanding proof of the ways racism effects the lives of people in the real world. Of course we could go back and forth with statistics about police brutality, incarceration and the economy, but what's the point? In the end you want to boil this down to numbers, numbers and more numbers, because you think that can somehow disprove the existence and effect of racism in America. All the while you ignore, or totally discredit, the most important thing: THE TESTIMONIES OF MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN AMERICA WHO SAY THEIR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN NEGATIVELY EFFECTED BY RACISM. But sure, they've all just been brainwashed by liberals. And you conservatives dare to call liberals elitist [BLEEP] who ignore the voices of real Americans.
misreading performative displays by celebs and companies as meaning anything is pretty dumb
(06-07-2020, 11:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]And I know how you will respond to me; by demanding proof of the ways racism effects the lives of people in the real world. Of course we could go back and forth with statistics about police brutality, incarceration and the economy, but what's the point? In the end you want to boil this down to numbers, numbers and more numbers, because you think that can somehow disprove the existence and effect of racism in America. All the while you ignore, or totally discredit, the most important thing: THE TESTIMONIES OF MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN AMERICA WHO SAY THEIR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN NEGATIVELY EFFECTED BY RACISM. But sure, they've all just been brainwashed by liberals. And you conservatives dare to call liberals elitist [BLEEP] who ignore the voices of real Americans.
Millions of white people said black people were inferior, does that make it so?
There is no back and forth. Every data point is on my side.
Moreover racism in an economy this diverse is meaningless. It only matters in so much as someone's property rights are affected. When u allow individuals to have property rights in a free market economy they make their own choices and value judgements. The diversity of the economic system eliminate sthe capability of institutional or systemic risk/racism/ privilige etc.
For instance 20 banks are all racist? 30 employers are all racist? 1000 potential clients are ALL racist. And not just racist, but to such a degree that they will hurt their own economic prospects to indulge in bias? You cant make that argument.
Capitalism isnt about HAVING TO eradicate racism, sexism this that or the other thing to make everyone the right kind of person to make the right kind of decisions. Capitalism is about maintaining a set of incentives to make the WRONG kind of person do the right thing.
Yay. This needed a new thread!
(06-08-2020, 12:26 AM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ] (06-07-2020, 11:34 PM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ]And I know how you will respond to me; by demanding proof of the ways racism effects the lives of people in the real world. Of course we could go back and forth with statistics about police brutality, incarceration and the economy, but what's the point? In the end you want to boil this down to numbers, numbers and more numbers, because you think that can somehow disprove the existence and effect of racism in America. All the while you ignore, or totally discredit, the most important thing: THE TESTIMONIES OF MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR IN AMERICA WHO SAY THEIR LIVES AND THE LIVES OF THEIR LOVED ONES HAVE BEEN NEGATIVELY EFFECTED BY RACISM. But sure, they've all just been brainwashed by liberals. And you conservatives dare to call liberals elitist [BLEEP] who ignore the voices of real Americans.
Millions of white people said black people were inferior, does that make it so?
There is no back and forth. Every data point is on my side.
Moreover racism in an economy this diverse is meaningless. It only matters in so much as someone's property rights are affected. When u allow individuals to have property rights in a free market economy they make their own choices and value judgements. The diversity of the economic system eliminate sthe capability of institutional or systemic risk/racism/ privilige etc.
For instance 20 banks are all racist? 30 employers are all racist? 1000 potential clients are ALL racist. And not just racist, but to such a degree that they will hurt their own economic prospects to indulge in bias? You cant make that argument.
Capitalism isnt about HAVING TO eradicate racism, sexism this that or the other thing to make everyone the right kind of person to make the right kind of decisions. Capitalism is about maintaining a set of incentives to make the WRONG kind of person do the right thing.
Your first 3 points in this reply are so utterly preposterous... I may as well just give up, you are way beyond reason at this stage.
You begin your argument about why racism doesn't exist or is meaningless by acknowledging that millions of white people thought they were superior to black people. Way to shoot your own argument in the foot right away!
More importantly though, it's a really weak justification for why you get to ignore the lived experience of millions in America because it doesn't support your point. White superiority was, is, an 'idea'; a terrible, damaging concept that people were, are, brainwashed into believing. But the harmful effect of racism is not just an idea, it is something that MILLIONS OF AMERICANS SAY THEY HAVE DIRECTLY EXPERIENCED IN THEIR OWN LIVES. It affects people in a very concrete, real way. You choose to call these people fools who believe in a non-existent Boogeyman. Again, the arrogance in your position is truly astounding.
Your second point is equally arrogant and blinkered to reality. Do you really believe that every data point is on your side, as you claim? That's absurd. I will concede you have some statistics to support your argument, because a reasonable mind accepts there are statistics that can be used to support any position. To say there can't be "any back and forth" is a display of hubris. I literally don't even believe there is another poster on this board who would be willing to claim that.
And lastly you claim that racism is meaningless because we live in a system with a diverse economy. Just gibberish. Again you ignore the voices of millions who can directly explain the negative influences that racism has had on their lives. By your reasoning almost all of the major issues in society are meaningless; bullying, mental health, domestic abuse... Are these things also meaningless because they don't affect property rights in a capitalist society? As humans we are shaped by the hundreds of interactions we have on a daily basis. To reduce meaning down to things that affect property rights is simply a cold and calculated lack of compassion for the human experience.
Your main points are so absurb that your entire reasoning is now showing serious cracks in it's foundation. I honestly believe that even many of the conservative posters on this board are beginning to see your stance for what it is, utter [BLEEP].
I know you think you just made a great argument, but you didn't. I don't really have the energy to respond to your post. Feeling kind of bummed today. Maybe something will set a fire under me later and I'll respond to more posts. Just stopping in to say I think you are wrong to assume that a majority of conservatives don't agree with JJ. I do. I'm not as black and white as JJ, but I agree with the philosophy that supports his narrative.
JagJohn, IMO your posts reek of blatant racism. The mirror is where you should confront the racist in the room. Feeling things are one way when all the facts show them to be not true anymore is disingenuous and morally bankrupt. You are like the Japanese soldiers that were found on islands years after the war ended and they did not have a clue it was over.
Another thing I wonder from you. You seem to believe that the racism towards black's from white's is systemic and ongoing indicating generational continuance but shew away any notion the black community has also passed along falsehoods to their children for generations. Why is that? Why are black children who do well in school chastised by their black piers, why are successful black's in the adult world called Uncle Toms by people of their own race? It's easy to have built in excuses for failure isn't it?
(06-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]JagJohn, IMO your posts reek of blatant racism. The mirror is where you should confront the racist in the room. Feeling things are one way when all the facts show them to be not true anymore is disingenuous and morally bankrupt. You are like the Japanese soldiers that were found on islands years after the war ended and they did not have a clue it was over.
Another thing I wonder from you. You seem to believe that the racism towards black's from white's is systemic and ongoing indicating generational continuance but shew away any notion the black community has also passed along falsehoods to their children for generations. Why is that? Why are black children who do well in school chastised by their black piers, why are successful black's in the adult world called Uncle Toms by people of their own race? It's easy to have built in excuses for failure isn't it?
Absolute garbage. I'm a racist because I listen and acknowledge the millions of people in America that say they have experienced racism?
I give up, there is no reasoning with this level of idiocy.
(06-08-2020, 10:18 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]JagJohn, IMO your posts reek of blatant racism. The mirror is where you should confront the racist in the room. Feeling things are one way when all the facts show them to be not true anymore is disingenuous and morally bankrupt. You are like the Japanese soldiers that were found on islands years after the war ended and they did not have a clue it was over.
Another thing I wonder from you. You seem to believe that the racism towards black's from white's is systemic and ongoing indicating generational continuance but shew away any notion the black community has also passed along falsehoods to their children for generations. Why is that? Why are black children who do well in school chastised by their black piers, why are successful black's in the adult world called Uncle Toms by people of their own race? It's easy to have built in excuses for failure isn't it?
Absolute garbage. I'm a racist because I listen and acknowledge the millions of people in America that say they have experienced racism?
I give up, there is no reasoning with this level of idiocy.
That's what I figured. Not an answer one. Check that mirror dude.
(06-08-2020, 10:18 AM)JagJohn Wrote: [ -> ] (06-08-2020, 09:31 AM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]JagJohn, IMO your posts reek of blatant racism. The mirror is where you should confront the racist in the room. Feeling things are one way when all the facts show them to be not true anymore is disingenuous and morally bankrupt. You are like the Japanese soldiers that were found on islands years after the war ended and they did not have a clue it was over.
Another thing I wonder from you. You seem to believe that the racism towards black's from white's is systemic and ongoing indicating generational continuance but shew away any notion the black community has also passed along falsehoods to their children for generations. Why is that? Why are black children who do well in school chastised by their black piers, why are successful black's in the adult world called Uncle Toms by people of their own race? It's easy to have built in excuses for failure isn't it?
Absolute garbage. I'm a racist because I listen and acknowledge the millions of people in America that say they have experienced racism?
I give up, there is no reasoning with this level of idiocy.
You are a racist because you claim all whites are racist. Now I know you're going to say the "all" in my statement was wrong, but you blame whites America in general for the crimes of a few. How is that any different from blaming blacks in America in general for the looting and burning that's been going on.
We know who the people were who killed Arbery and Floyd. This is not "systemic" or "institutional," it's individual criminals. They have been charged with murder. Whether or not justice will be done is up to the courts now, which is the way justice works in the US. Do you want a guilty-until-proven-innocent system instead?
Funny how some America-hater living in Mexico weighs in on this thread.
(06-07-2020, 09:43 PM)jj82284 Wrote: [ -> ]First, let me start by clearly stating my thesis.
You just posted 3 very similar topics within an hour.
You mad Bruh? This equality [BLEEP] must really be eating you alive !!! Sorry, Party's Over.
We all have cell phones so, in the words of Chris Carter, creator of the X Files, "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE".
(06-08-2020, 08:59 AM)Last42min Wrote: [ -> ]I know you think you just made a great argument, but you didn't. I don't really have the energy to respond to your post. Feeling kind of bummed today. Maybe something will set a fire under me later and I'll respond to more posts. Just stopping in to say I think you are wrong to assume that a majority of conservatives don't agree with JJ. I do. I'm not as black and white as JJ, but I agree with the philosophy that supports his narrative.
Coming from someone who would know!