Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

Smith? Like Telvin? bwahaha...

Anywho... to answer your hypothetical we'd be much better. Henderson and Ramsey on the outside would be monster. Yan creating pressure would have opened stuff up for Allen more (and we probably use the Chaisson pick on another position, tight end or safety perhaps.)

But none of those guys were ever going to be here. They had given up and made up their minds.
I think moving on from Campbell hurts the most (and I supported it at the time). He also would have helped along the DL both as a player opposite Allen and as a mentor to the young guys.
His issue wasn't buying in it was Caldwell moving his contract to clear cap space. But by not signing Yan, not sure we needed that cap space this year...

Could we assume it would have been built the right way if that would have happened?

(10-06-2020, 12:18 PM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

I thought that is why we moved all the "problem players" out of the building... to emphasize "team".  How's that been working out so far?  About the same way it has been working out in Houston after they traded away D-Hop for peanuts because he was a "problem".  O'Brien and Morrone are long-time buddies trying to do things the same way.... and getting the same results.

(10-06-2020, 12:30 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 12:18 PM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

I thought that is why we moved all the "problem players" out of the building... to emphasize "team".  How's that been working out so far?  About the same way it has been working out in Houston after they traded away D-Hop for peanuts because he was a "problem".  O'Brien and Morrone are long-time buddies trying to do things the same way.... and getting the same results.

The approach isn't wrong, its the lackluster coaching and lack of talent. Football is a hard game to get around lack of talent due to all of the 1v1 matchups in any given play. You have to be a HOF level type coach to get creative enough, like Belicheck has done in the past with some pretty average defenses.

That being said the approach itself has led to stories like the Miracle on Ice. The difference is that US Hockey team had a HOFer coach.

We have Doug Moron and David Washes Dishes.

(10-06-2020, 02:49 PM)Minshew Mania Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 12:30 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]I thought that is why we moved all the "problem players" out of the building... to emphasize "team".  How's that been working out so far?  About the same way it has been working out in Houston after they traded away D-Hop for peanuts because he was a "problem".  O'Brien and Morrone are long-time buddies trying to do things the same way.... and getting the same results.

The approach isn't wrong, its the lackluster coaching and lack of talent. Football is a hard game to get around lack of talent due to all of the 1v1 matchups in any given play. You have to be a HOF level type coach to get creative enough, like Belicheck has done in the past with some pretty average defenses.

That being said the approach itself has led to stories like the Miracle on Ice. The difference is that US Hockey team had a HOFer coach.

We have Doug Moron and David Washes Dishes.

The approach is 100% wrong.  It is so wrong the only reference you could give me of it working was from a different sport 40+ years ago.  That is the exception, not the rule.

You need some "personalities" with talent, but to keep them, you need to build a strong culture where you can accept these personalities and direct them towards a common mission.  When you have 50+ guys on a team, they aren't all going to be choir boys. I do agree with you that DM and DC have not developed a strong culture whatsoever... every talented personality we have had here couldn't wait to leave.  Just another reason we need to move on from this entire regime after the season and clean house.

(10-06-2020, 03:43 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 02:49 PM)Minshew Mania Wrote: [ -> ]The approach isn't wrong, its the lackluster coaching and lack of talent. Football is a hard game to get around lack of talent due to all of the 1v1 matchups in any given play. You have to be a HOF level type coach to get creative enough, like Belicheck has done in the past with some pretty average defenses.

That being said the approach itself has led to stories like the Miracle on Ice. The difference is that US Hockey team had a HOFer coach.

We have Doug Moron and David Washes Dishes.

The approach is 100% wrong.  It is so wrong the only reference you could give me of it working was from a different sport 40+ years ago.  That is the exception, not the rule.

You need some "personalities" with talent, but to keep them, you need to build a strong culture where you can accept these personalities and direct them towards a common mission.  When you have 50+ guys on a team, they aren't all going to be choir boys.  I do agree with you that DM and DC have not developed a strong culture whatsoever... every talented personality we have had here couldn't wait to leave.  Just another reason we need to move on from this entire regime after the season and clean house.

Well to be fair, I could name a more current example: the New England Patriots. Again, the difference is that the coach is a HOFer.

I hate to break it to you, but our "strong personality" players are wanting out of Jacksonville, not because of the culture, but because we're the Jags and we've been god awful the better part of 20 years.

Apart from hating losing (most people hate to lose, especially professional athletes.) Those types of players typically got it in their head that they're shoeins for a HOF ballot. So they're chasing rings second only to their paycheck. Obviously we're not providing rings. And unless you're a QB, a WR on a short contract or a TE, chances are we're not "overpaying" for your services. So where does that leave guys like that.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, help is not on the way. We could clean house tomorrow and it's not going to change the perception of the Jaguars. The only thing that will is by winning, and winning consecutively. And unfortunately we got the whole league against us, in more ways than one. We will have to overcome all of that to see any success with this franchise. The approach honestly has some merit. But obviously it helps to have good coaches and good players, which are both big question marks right now

(10-06-2020, 04:27 PM)Minshew Mania Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 03:43 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]The approach is 100% wrong.  It is so wrong the only reference you could give me of it working was from a different sport 40+ years ago.  That is the exception, not the rule.

You need some "personalities" with talent, but to keep them, you need to build a strong culture where you can accept these personalities and direct them towards a common mission.  When you have 50+ guys on a team, they aren't all going to be choir boys.  I do agree with you that DM and DC have not developed a strong culture whatsoever... every talented personality we have had here couldn't wait to leave.  Just another reason we need to move on from this entire regime after the season and clean house.

Well to be fair, I could name a more current example: the New England Patriots. Again, the difference is that the coach is a HOFer.

I hate to break it to you, but our "strong personality" players are wanting out of Jacksonville, not because of the culture, but because we're the Jags and we've been god awful the better part of 20 years.

Apart from hating losing (most people hate to lose, especially professional athletes.) Those types of players typically got it in their head that they're shoeins for a HOF ballot. So they're chasing rings second only to their paycheck. Obviously we're not providing rings. And unless you're a QB, a WR on a short contract or a TE, chances are we're not "overpaying" for your services. So where does that leave guys like that.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, help is not on the way. We could clean house tomorrow and it's not going to change the perception of the Jaguars. The only thing that will is by winning, and winning consecutively.

I disagree with basically every thought you had here.  The Patriots have had all kinds of personalities on there teams.  The they take fliers on all kinds of guys, from Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, Corey Dillion, Chad Ochocinco, etc, etc.  They just manage them and have a better culture to withstand them.

The culture and winning are related.  Its the chicken or the egg.  The culture breeds winning. Winning reinforces the culture. But you need leadership to create culture, both in the front office and coaching staff. We have none currently.

Everyone has the same salary cap.  If you build the culture, you will win, and more players want to be there.  You don't have to overpay.  In fact, you get a 4-8% raise coming to Florida to play if you get the same contract elsewhere because we have no state income tax.  No need to over pay.  Everyone in the League has the same amount of money to spend.  But we are paying more money in dead cap space to players who are no longer with our team than any other team in the League... $43,771,825 this season to be exact.  At least we are #1 in something, right?

Help IS on the way and cleaning house will begin the perception change of our organization in the League.  A competent GM who is more concerned with winning games than perceptions of his height, weight, speed, draft choices.  Who sprinkles in intelligent free agents in areas of need and has a succession plan for them with solid draft picks before their skills diminish over the years.  A GM who doesn't pay 44 million dollars a year to players no longer with the team.  2021 is a critical year to make a change, and if we do.... help is on the way.

Marrone and Caldwell are not getting fired, they sold Khan on a losing season before last offseason.

(10-06-2020, 05:08 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Marrone and Caldwell are not getting fired, they sold Khan on a losing season before last offseason.

That is your uneducated opinion.

(10-06-2020, 05:08 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Marrone and Caldwell are not getting fired, they sold Khan on a losing season before last offseason.

They might have sold him on it, but that doesn't mean if they don't show they are moving in the right direction, he can't just cut his losses and move on.

(10-06-2020, 12:18 PM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

You can keep all three of those guys, just give me Calais back, maybe Bouye.

Then we don't have to play the what if game.

I honestly don't imagine that we would have given Jalen a max deal, even if he didn't pull all the stupid shenanigans he did while here.

(10-06-2020, 05:08 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Marrone and Caldwell are not getting fired, they sold Khan on a losing season before last offseason.

Yes and no, imo.
They sold him on the idea we'd probably take two steps back to take two steps forward. Cutting a lot of talent and skewing really young. Getting the cap under control etc.
But I believe they sold him that the offense would be exciting under Minshew and Chark and the offense would be getting better off last years success. The offense has been okay in spots but not good enough and not consistent at all.

If they win fewer than 5 games and Minshew struggles I think a complete blow up is on the horizon.

Currently I think there are 4 or 5 "winnable" games left on the schedule against teams that have their own issues whether its not good defense or a rookie QB or whatever. But that's a stretch and playing the way we have been I'm not sure it actually gets done.
I was fairly optimistic of a 6-7 win season this preseason. Now I honestly wouldn't be surprised at a 2-3 win season.
I don't think they survive that.

How can you buy into to a team that was responsible for 25% of all of the NFL grievances filed? That shows an extreme disfunction between the players and front office. Personally, I don't think our front office knows how to deal with good players. Also, when good players leave, our draft record isn't good enough to recover as other teams seem to be able to do.

(10-07-2020, 10:21 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]How can you buy into to a team that was responsible for 25% of all of the NFL grievances filed?  That shows an extreme disfunction between the players and front office.  Personally, I don't think our front office knows how to deal with good players.  Also, when good players leave, our draft record isn't good enough to recover as other teams seem to be able to do.

Agreed.  And I don't want to hear the Caldwell apologists say "well that was all Coughlin".  No, it wasn't.  They are still excited to leave Jacksonville after he has left, as witnessed this year.  And our draft record is HORRIBLE replacing lost talent.  Caldwell knew that buying our D-line in free agency in 2017 was expensive and not sustainable, so he has been trying to reload those players in recent drafts.  How has that been working out?  We have three first round picks there now and everyone knows how bad our d-line is.  Caldwell is THE biggest problem with this franchise.

(10-06-2020, 12:18 PM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

The defense has had problems even with that talent.  There were times the defense got thrashed with all that talent. Remember when the Jags had the Pats on the ropes and had them at 3rd and 18?  Wash calls a soft zone play and Tom converts it.   The Steelers game was another example.  IN that playoff game this defense could not stop the Steelers at all.  Brown was eating Ramsey's and Bouye's lunch.   Bortles played his greatest game and gets most of the credit for winning that game. 

Most coaches have phased this scheme out.    Average QB's can beat it.

(10-07-2020, 08:09 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 12:18 PM)JW Wrote: [ -> ]What would have happened this season if these guys would have bought in to the team concept?

The defense has had problems even with that talent.  There were times the defense got thrashed with all that talent. Remember when the Jags had the Pats on the ropes and had them at 3rd and 18?  Wash calls a soft zone play and Tom converts it.   The Steelers game was another example.  IN that playoff game this defense could not stop the Steelers at all.  Brown was eating Ramsey's and Bouye's lunch.   Bortles played his greatest game and gets most of the credit for winning that game. 

Most coaches have phased this scheme out.    Average QB's can beat it.

Kinda hard to complain about having the #2 overall D in 2017 and the #5 D in 2018.  You're talking about a few specific plays or games... that is gonna happen to any defense.

(10-06-2020, 05:04 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]

(10-06-2020, 04:27 PM)Minshew Mania Wrote: [ -> ]Well to be fair, I could name a more current example: the New England Patriots. Again, the difference is that the coach is a HOFer.

I hate to break it to you, but our "strong personality" players are wanting out of Jacksonville, not because of the culture, but because we're the Jags and we've been god awful the better part of 20 years.

Apart from hating losing (most people hate to lose, especially professional athletes.) Those types of players typically got it in their head that they're shoeins for a HOF ballot. So they're chasing rings second only to their paycheck. Obviously we're not providing rings. And unless you're a QB, a WR on a short contract or a TE, chances are we're not "overpaying" for your services. So where does that leave guys like that.

Guess what I'm trying to say is, help is not on the way. We could clean house tomorrow and it's not going to change the perception of the Jaguars. The only thing that will is by winning, and winning consecutively.

I disagree with basically every thought you had here.  The Patriots have had all kinds of personalities on there teams.  The they take fliers on all kinds of guys, from Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, Corey Dillion, Chad Ochocinco, etc, etc.  They just manage them and have a better culture to withstand them.

The culture and winning are related.  Its the chicken or the egg.  The culture breeds winning.  Winning reinforces the culture.  But you need leadership to create culture, both in the front office and coaching staff.  We have none currently.

Everyone has the same salary cap.  If you build the culture, you will win, and more players want to be there.  You don't have to overpay.  In fact, you get a 4-8% raise coming to Florida to play if you get the same contract elsewhere because we have no state income tax.  No need to over pay.  Everyone in the League has the same amount of money to spend.  But we are paying more money in dead cap space to players who are no longer with our team than any other team in the League... $43,771,825 this season to be exact.  At least we are #1 in something, right?

Help IS on the way and cleaning house will begin the perception change of our organization in the League.  A competent GM who is more concerned with winning games than perceptions of his height, weight, speed, draft choices.  Who sprinkles in intelligent free agents in areas of need and has a succession plan for them with solid draft picks before their skills diminish over the years.  A GM who doesn't pay 44 million dollars a year to players no longer with the team.  2021 is a critical year to make a change, and if we do.... help is on the way.

Thank you for explaining that to him. Sometimes I look at what some the people post and can only believe they are some part of the organization trying to make seem better or different from what they really are.

We had a great defense all we had to do was lock down the 3 rookies from the same year. Keep Calais, possibly Bouye until we draft his replacement and we would have been set on the defensive side. People keep saying that our defense wasn't sustainable because to many expensive free agents, I disagree, if we would have just kept the core of Ramsey, Jack, Yan, Calais and Allen, that have allowed us still have a solid defense.

jags would still be loseing cause doug stinks as a hC. its time he goes.

(10-09-2020, 02:04 PM)snowwolf776 Wrote: [ -> ]jags would still be loseing cause doug stinks as a hC. its time he goes.

Would you knock it off with this crap in every...single...thread.  It's getting really old.