Quote:That final drive against Seattle in the superbowl with 8 straight completions till the TD was a thing of beauty and he's done that over and over again. Even last playoff against Denver when he was brutally beaten up with no Oline he threw more than 300 yards and came a 2 points conversion away from overtime. A great player in a great system if you ask me.
^This.
The clutch drives/plays/situations that Brady has engineered over the years are numerous. He's just about as clutch as a QB could possibly be.
Even in the Superbowl'07 that they lost:
The NYG had stifled NE all game. But, in the last couple minutes of the 4th qtr, Brady engineered a drive that resulted in a Randy Moss TD to take the lead with around 1:30 left on the clock. It was one of the most clutch things I'd ever seen.
It wasn't Brady's fault that the NE defense let NYG score with that crazy "Tyree catch" drive directly after he made a clutch drive for the ages.
Brady's great. Belichick is great. 12 or more wins a season for a decade-plus is insane. INSANE.
We might not ever see dominance like that for near the same longevity.
Neither Brissett nor garappolo looked great. Jimmy was average and brissett was bad.
I agree he does get help from an excellent system but hes still top 3 oat easily
Quote:So Belichick has a "system" now? What is it; "Coach your ### off and make damn sure your players and staff are prepared for the next opponent"?
I think you nailed it. That's his system.
Quote:^This.
The clutch drives/plays/situations that Brady has engineered over the years are numerous. He's just about as clutch as a QB could possibly be.
Even in the Superbowl'07 that they lost:
The NYG had stifled NE all game. But, I'm the last coupleinutes of the 4th qtr, Brady engineered a drive that resulted in a Ramdy Moss TD to take the lead with around 1:30 left on the clock. It was one of the most clutch things I'd ever seen.
It wasn't Brady's fault that the NE defense let the NYG score with that crazy "Tyree catch" drive directly after he made that clutch drive for the ages.
Brady's great. Belichick is great. 12 or more wins a season for a decade-plus is insane. INSANE.
We might not ever see dominance like that for near the same longevity.
Agree. I thought the dynasty days would be over with the implementation of the salary cap. Looked like the 90s Cowboys would be the last of them.
Not so.
That's the thing, though about the Pats. Pair a relatively young coach and young QB... and watch out, that's what the dynasty was built and remains built on.
Their challenge now is that long term QB to replace Brady, and a successor to Bill whenever that time comes. Continuity at those two spots are what makes them. It will fall apart if they can't find a replacement for both. Bill can win a few games in a season without his franchise QB. But he won't continue the dynasty without one when Tom is gone for good.
^ completely agree with you there, Pirk.
I was listening to radio today. Someone was talking about Bill B having won with other QBS besides Brady (something like 14-5, around there).
However, Belichick has never won a playoff game, or has never made it to the playoffs with another QB (IIRC).
What Brady gives late in the season, in the playoffs, and in big games is what other QBs have failed to do, so far.
I'm curious as to how long Belichick will coach after Brady has retired.
Quote:^ completely agree with you there, Pirk.
I was listening to radio today. Someone was talking about Bill B having won with other QBS besides Brady (something like 14-5, around there).
However, Belichick has never won a playoff game, or has never made it to the playoffs with another QB (IIRC).
What Brady gives late in the season, in the playoffs, and in big games is what other QBs have failed to do, so far.
I'm curious as to how long Belichick will coach after Brady has retired.
jagherd, one slight correction. Though Bill Belichick never made it to the playoffs as Patriots HC, he made the playoffs and won a playoff game as Browns HC in the 1994 season.
Quote: jagherd, one slight correction. Though Bill Belichick never made it to the playoffs as Patriots HC, he made the playoffs and won a playoff game as Browns HC in the 1994 season.
Oh. Okay, I remember that. The radio host (can't remember who it was) must have been talking about his time with the Pats.
They were referring to Cassell playing when they lost 5 games (Pats usually only lose 3 or 4) and didn't make the playoffs that year.
If there have been other QBs to play during his time in NE, it most likely was earlier in the season. I don't recall them being in the playoffs with anyone else:
Except for the very year Brady took over for Bledsoe. Brady did get hurt in the playoff round, and Bledsoe came back in and won the AFCC game in Pitt (Troy Brown was a superhero that day).
BB put Brady back in for the Superbowl against the Rams.
Their system is called adapting to whatever situation they are put in and winning the game.
They've won every way imaginable.
LOL at anyone trying to down play either Brady or BB's accomplishments due to it being a "system"
Quote:IMO, Tom Brady is definitely a top 10 all-time QB. However, Bill Belichick is making a strong case in being the best NFL HC of all-time. Belichick is definitely in the conversation with Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Joe Gibbs, Don Shula, Bill Walsh, and Tom Landry.
Would you put guys like Tom Coughlin, Dan Reeves, or (the coach that Kurt Warner was with....his name escapes me right now)?
Or how about Bill Parcels
Quote:Im not denying Brady is the best of the group that's played for him. I'm just saying maybe he's not QUITE as good as people want to make him. He owes a ton of his success to Belichick.
And vice versa. Those 2 won't be the same without each other. When Tom retires Bill will have a good team, but not the same way he has it with Brady at QB.
He's a cheater and a backup from Michigan, but he's also more than likely going to go down as the greatest to ever play the game, especially if he wins another superbowl before he retires.
These no denying Brady's success. He'll still have all his rings when he's retired as will BB. But after seeing Goropolo (sp) play and seeing a Brissett lead team win, it sure makes me wonder how much of that is due to coaching. One thing (unrelated to either) that I noticed was towards the end of the Houston game when they started getting frustrated, Strong gets a flag for shoving a player in the face after a play. Most of the time you see the player react. What did the pats player do? Not a darn thing! That's coaching there. Plus that defense shut them out so Brisset didn't have to do much to get that win. But he played well considering. But back on topic, what I've been seeing lately makes me think that if after this season if the pats trade Brady and roll with JG I feel you'll see a slightly different Brady. I don't think he'll suck but I don't think you'll see 14-2 seasons. I imagine I'd see a very frustrated crying Brady more often.
This........
QUOTE:
Belichick's father, Steve, was a longtime college football scout and coach who worked for 34 years at the U.S. Naval Academy. Bill often studied football with his father, and has cited him as one of his greatest mentors. He went on to play football and lacrosse in high school and football, lacrosse, and squash at Wesleyan University, Middletown, Connecticut. He was captain of the lacrosse team in his senior year.
Always a Patriots fan first (Jags second) we had been through a lot of bad spells through the seventies into the nineties, and we endured and looked forward.
Grabbing Coach B has been the best thing to happen to the New England Patriots............he loses personnel, players and still comes out on top. We had lost a lot of good players to money offered by other teams and he still finds a way to win.
I truly believe he is gifted at analyzing the game of football and he can prepare like no one else. He takes players who are often discarded by other teams and makes them fit.
Lose one QB and win, lose the backup and win, put in the back up to the backup and win............I am a Patriots fan and I would not of thought we could of pulled it off.
So yes I think when Brady was younger it was the dynamics of both Brady to Coach B.............now as Brady is getting on I believe it is all Coach B.
There is nothing to question when he's been playing at such a high level for 15 years.
Quote:Is it time to question how "great" Brady really is? He's good no question, but now we've seen Mallet, Cassel, Garappolo, Brisset look great in Belichick's system and suck everywhere else (when applicable). Even Garappolo and Brisset are without Gronk.
I'm not questioning he's the best of their qbs, but I do wonder if he could take another team to the SB like Peyton did. I've always thought he was a beneficiary of a good system, there's a LOT of evidence to support that now.
What we are seeing is a lot of run plays being called to simplify the job for Tom Brady's backups. Jacoby Brissett did not win the game with his arm. He just won the game, period. Urban Meyer did this during the 2014 postseason. No J.T. Barrett, no problem, because he made adjustments and let Cardale Jones just be a game manager. (I know OSU is a college team, but Bill Belicheat and Meyer did the same thing.) So it really is not just the system or offensive scheme helping Garoppolo and Brissett, even though that obviously does not hurt.
Quote:Is it time to question how "great" Brady really is? He's good no question, but now we've seen Mallet, Cassel, Garappolo, Brisset look great in Belichick's system and suck everywhere else (when applicable). Even Garappolo and Brisset are without Gronk.
I'm not questioning he's the best of their qbs, but I do wonder if he could take another team to the SB like Peyton did. I've always thought he was a beneficiary of a good system, there's a LOT of evidence to support that now.
I'm going to break this down one sentence at a time.
is it time to question how "great" Brady really is? No now is not the time, 2 superbowl wins ago was the time. at 39 years old and still dominate there is absolutely no question how great Brady is.
now we've seen Mallet, Cassel, Garappolo, Brisset look great in Belichick's system and suck everywhere else (when applicable)
I don't think we have seen any of those players look great. They have all looked serviceable. Brisset played the other night and threw for a total of 103 yards. Garrappolo has been in the same system for 2 years and was a reasonably high draft pick. He looked pretty good in the two weeks he played. Mallet never showed anything IMO. Last but not least Cassel. Cassel spent 4 years on the team in the same offense before he had to come in when Brady tore his ACL. He then proceeded to take an undefeated team and lose 5 games the following year with basically the same roster. The guy was at his best an average NFL QB and any average NFL QB can take an all time great roster and win 11 games with it.
Even Garappolo and Brisset are without Gronk
Couple things here, they may not have Gronk but the Pats did sign Martellus Bennett in the offseason who is no slouch at TE. Add that to Belicheck's ability to scheme matchups and game plan you can get by a couple weeks without your top threat. Especially early in the season when defenses haven't gelled yet.
I'm not questioning he's the best of their qbs
Obviously he is the best of their qbs.
I like to change the argument to is he the best of all the qbs in the league? At the moment I do question this. It appears to me we are at a changing of the guards point, we have a lot of veteran qbs in the final years of their prime approaching retirement and some young guns solidifying the ranks. Then you have a guy like Aaron Rodgers who looks like a shell of what he was 2 years ago. Brady cannot do certain things at this point, his deep ball is getting worse and he is forced to live in the intermediate and underneath. Resume wise he is by far the best.
I do wonder if he could take another team to the SB like Peyton did
I think it is more accurate to say Peyton was brought to the Superbowl and won the Superbowl despite anything Peyton did. The two Superbowls Peyton did take his team to he lost. The other two were won by a strong defense and running game. You also realize Brady is only 1 year removed from winning a superbowl right?
I've always thought he was a beneficiary of a good system, there's a LOT of evidence to support that now.
1 Matt Cassel season (with an all time great roster) and 3 games by Patriots backups is not a lot of evidence. Brady is what makes that system work and those backups all do what Brady has shown is possible in that system. He made the system the system did not make him.
I think that the play of the back up QBs is more of a testament to Belicheck (sp?) than anything else.
Quote:I think that the play of the back up QBs is more of a testament to Belicheck (sp?) than anything else.
Belicheat
Quote:Oh. Okay, I remember that. The radio host (can't remember who it was) must have been talking about his time with the Pats.
They were referring to Cassell playing when they lost 5 games (Pats usually only lose 3 or 4) and didn't make the playoffs that year.
If there have been other QBs to play during his time in NE, it most likely was earlier in the season. I don't recall them being in the playoffs with anyone else:
Except for the very year Brady took over for Bledsoe. Brady did get hurt in the playoff round, and Bledsoe came back in and won the AFCC game in Pitt (Troy Brown was a superhero that day).
BB put Brady back in for the Superbowl against the Rams.
i think you summed up the history very well.
The fact that Bill Belichick already recognized by the Super Bowl of Tom Brady's 2nd season in the NFL that Brady was a much option than former # 1 overall pick Drew Bledsoe speaks volumes as much as anything about how Brady has been perceived. Brady certainly didn't disappointment Belichick that day and the vast majority of other days.
Quote:Would you put guys like Tom Coughlin, Dan Reeves, or (the coach that Kurt Warner was with....his name escapes me right now)?
Or how about Bill Parcels
I believe you are referring to Dick Vermeil, as he was the St. Louis Rams HC that led them to their only Super Bowl win. By the time Warner reached his 2nd Super Bowl two years later, Mike Martz was promoted from OC to HC.
Of the HCs you mentioned, for me Bill Parcells is the closest to the list that I put together. I gave serious thought about including Parcells but he fell a little short when considering all of his seasons. That's certainly not a knock on Parcells.
Tom Coughlin deserves to eventually be in the Pro Football HOF but I put him behind Parcells. There were too many seasons with the Giants in which the team was average at best.
Dick Vermeil would be a little lower on my list than Coughlin. If Vermeil would have stayed with the Rams longer, my perception of him would probably be even more favorable than it currently is.
Dan Reeves was a very good HC but I don't think he's quite a HOF Coach. Reeves didn't do enough with the Giants to get over the top. Especially, since the Falcons lost the Super Bowl to his first former team he was a HC with.
Like with the QB discussions and practically everything else when it comes to rankings in sports, it's very subjective. One can make a case for Parcells, George Halas, and/ or Curly Lambeau being on the list of HCs I put above the rest and it's difficult to argue.