(11-26-2020, 11:08 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give up both 1sts and a 2nd to get Lawrence in a heartbeat. We'd still have ammo between the rest of our picks + a ton of cap space to build around Lawrence if we have a competent GM next year.
(11-26-2020, 11:08 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give up both 1sts and a 2nd to get Lawrence in a heartbeat. We'd still have ammo between the rest of our picks + a ton of cap space to build around Lawrence if we have a competent GM next year.
(11-26-2020, 11:08 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give up both 1sts and a 2nd to get Lawrence in a heartbeat. We'd still have ammo between the rest of our picks + a ton of cap space to build around Lawrence if we have a competent GM next year.
(11-26-2020, 11:20 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ](11-26-2020, 11:08 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give up both 1sts and a 2nd to get Lawrence in a heartbeat. We'd still have ammo between the rest of our picks + a ton of cap space to build around Lawrence if we have a competent GM next year.
For sure, I'd it in a heartbeat too
(11-26-2020, 10:56 AM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ](11-26-2020, 01:42 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Those 2nd and 3rd round picks should be starters on this team. We have way too many holes/depth to fill to be trading away picks. We currently have 4 picks in the top 50 and 7 picks in the first 4 rounds. Every one of those picks need to be used here, we can't afford to be trading them away.
So you're saying that it wouldn't be worth it to give up a 2nd and a 3rd for Peyton Manning or Patrick Mahomes on their rookie deal? Because that's what were are talking about here if you believe the Trevor Lawrence hype that he's a can't miss franchise QB... the type of player we have never had here before. Of course there are no guarantees, just as there are no guarantees that your 2nd and 3rd round picks will be any good either. But I'd give up Jawaan Taylor and Josh Oliver (2nd and 3rd rounders respectively in 2019) for Trevor Lawrence in a heart beat; quality over quantity. Hell, I'd trade a 2nd and a 3rd for Joe Burrow (pre-injury). The fact we do have draft capital in 2021, and cap space for free agents, to add more quality players would make me feel even better making that move.
That being said, I tend to agree with flgatorsandjags that someone else will likely be desperate and dramatically overpay to go up and get that #1 pick. People thought the Bears overpaid in 2017, giving up two-3rds and a 4th to flip picks from #3 to #2 to get Trubisky, but Lawrence has much more hype around him than that. I'd cap our offer at flipping 1st's, plus a 2nd and a 3rd; someone else would likely outbid us. I'd be fine with Sewell, but at some point you need to find your QB. Minshew et al. ain't it.
(11-23-2020, 09:22 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ]What do yall think it would take to move up 1 spot to take Lawrence? Both 1sts and a 2nd?
(11-26-2020, 11:51 AM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](11-26-2020, 11:08 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ]I'd give up both 1sts and a 2nd to get Lawrence in a heartbeat. We'd still have ammo between the rest of our picks + a ton of cap space to build around Lawrence if we have a competent GM next year.
We wouldn't have the picks though. We need immediate starters at QB, LT, TE, 3 Technique, DE, Strong Safety and Nickle CB. Where are we gonna find starters with one second, one 3rd and a bunch of low round picks? I certainly don't trust free agency, because with the way players were defecting from this team, I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe any top free agents are gonna come here to play. If we trade away both first rounders and a 2nd, I'd expect out record in 2021 to be no more than 5 wins, even with Lawrence. The guy is not a Superman. He's gonna need a surrounding cast.
(11-23-2020, 04:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]It would take A LOT to trade up even one spot to get Lawrence and there is no way we should pull off such a move. This team is deficient at almost every position and giving away draft capital is not the way to build a team. Cincinnati drafted Joe Burrow last season, but they neglected to given him an offensive line. For years they have ignored the O-Line and Burrow was hit more than any QB in the NFL. Now, he's out for the season with a torn ACL. What good was drafting a franchise QB when you have no O-line to keep him upright. Now, the Bengals will be without him this season and in many cases, it takes a player another full season to fully get over the injury. When he does return, he will likely not be the same player he was before the injury until at least 2022. I don't wanna build things that way. We need to take truly elite players when we have the chance. If Lawrence is off the board, we have to take OT Penei Sewell. Robinson is not the answer at LT and other than Eichenberg of Notre Dame, this class of OT's is largely filled with projects. Free agency is pretty much barren as well. We should keep the draft picks, because as many picks as we have, we have even more needs.
(11-26-2020, 10:08 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ](11-23-2020, 04:57 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]It would take A LOT to trade up even one spot to get Lawrence and there is no way we should pull off such a move. This team is deficient at almost every position and giving away draft capital is not the way to build a team. Cincinnati drafted Joe Burrow last season, but they neglected to given him an offensive line. For years they have ignored the O-Line and Burrow was hit more than any QB in the NFL. Now, he's out for the season with a torn ACL. What good was drafting a franchise QB when you have no O-line to keep him upright. Now, the Bengals will be without him this season and in many cases, it takes a player another full season to fully get over the injury. When he does return, he will likely not be the same player he was before the injury until at least 2022. I don't wanna build things that way. We need to take truly elite players when we have the chance. If Lawrence is off the board, we have to take OT Penei Sewell. Robinson is not the answer at LT and other than Eichenberg of Notre Dame, this class of OT's is largely filled with projects. Free agency is pretty much barren as well. We should keep the draft picks, because as many picks as we have, we have even more needs.
For some perspective as to how much it might cost, here are terms of a few trades up into the top 5 for QBs....
https://www.12up.com/posts/revisiting-ch...e5xmgda4qt
This details the 1998 trade where the Chargers moved up one spot from 3 to 2 to get in position to select Ryan Leaf.
"In 2001, the Falcons had the No. 5 pick in the NFL draft, but they stunned the NFL world by trading up with the Chargers to acquire the No. 1 overall selection. Atlanta sent its first- and third-round picks and a 2002 second-round draft pick to San Diego in order to select Virginia Tech quarterback Michael Vick." That was a move up of four spots...
https://www.si.com/nfl/2020/04/21/this-d...ck-falcons
Here is another trade in 2004 involving the Chargers. Here, Eli Manning forced the deal, being unwilling to play for the Chargers. who had the #1 overall pick.
Here were the terms of the trade:
Chargers send Eli Manning to the Giants.
The Giants send Phillip Rivers
The Giants 2004 3rd round pick
The Giants 2005 first round pick
and The Giants 2005 fifth round pick
More recently-2012 to be specific, to move from 6-2, the Washington Football team sent 3 first round picks and a 2nd to the Rams to get RGIII.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/7668...louis-rams
Lastly, in 2018, the Jets traded up from the 6th overall pick to #3..."
"The short story: The Jets gave up a good amount to move up and draft their quarterback of the future, Sam Darnold. To swap ones, the Jets sent to Indianapolis two second-round picks last year, Nos. 37 and 49, and a second-rounder this year, which figures to be No. 34."
https://www.newyorkjets.com/news/looking...am-darnold
Now these samples do not represent the entirety of first round top 5 trades for QBs. However, they give some indicia that, while likely costly, a trade up with the jets to move up one spot may not be as catastrophically expensive as some fear, especially considering we have lots of ammunition this year and we are only one pick below the Jets.
As long as the price is better than, or at least comparable to the trades above, aside from what Washington paid to move up to get RG III, I would pay the price without hesitation if it means us ending up with Trevor Lawrence.
(11-26-2020, 06:24 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ](11-26-2020, 10:56 AM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]So you're saying that it wouldn't be worth it to give up a 2nd and a 3rd for Peyton Manning or Patrick Mahomes on their rookie deal? Because that's what were are talking about here if you believe the Trevor Lawrence hype that he's a can't miss franchise QB... the type of player we have never had here before. Of course there are no guarantees, just as there are no guarantees that your 2nd and 3rd round picks will be any good either. But I'd give up Jawaan Taylor and Josh Oliver (2nd and 3rd rounders respectively in 2019) for Trevor Lawrence in a heart beat; quality over quantity. Hell, I'd trade a 2nd and a 3rd for Joe Burrow (pre-injury). The fact we do have draft capital in 2021, and cap space for free agents, to add more quality players would make me feel even better making that move.
That being said, I tend to agree with flgatorsandjags that someone else will likely be desperate and dramatically overpay to go up and get that #1 pick. People thought the Bears overpaid in 2017, giving up two-3rds and a 4th to flip picks from #3 to #2 to get Trubisky, but Lawrence has much more hype around him than that. I'd cap our offer at flipping 1st's, plus a 2nd and a 3rd; someone else would likely outbid us. I'd be fine with Sewell, but at some point you need to find your QB. Minshew et al. ain't it.
Yea with hindsight, of course we'd trade for Peyton Manning or Mahomes... The problem is that we know how that story played out/is playing out, so it's a no brainer. There's no guarantee Lawrence will be anything close to either of those two. Especially if we still have this same coaching staff working with Lawrence.
Regardless, its all a moot point anyways. The Jets aren't trading that #1 pick. They are going to take Lawrence 100% if they hold the #1 pick. Our only hope at getting Lawrence is that we continue to lose and the Jets win a couple.
(11-27-2020, 12:35 AM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ](11-26-2020, 06:24 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Yea with hindsight, of course we'd trade for Peyton Manning or Mahomes... The problem is that we know how that story played out/is playing out, so it's a no brainer. There's no guarantee Lawrence will be anything close to either of those two. Especially if we still have this same coaching staff working with Lawrence.
Regardless, its all a moot point anyways. The Jets aren't trading that #1 pick. They are going to take Lawrence 100% if they hold the #1 pick. Our only hope at getting Lawrence is that we continue to lose and the Jets win a couple.
Well that is what you are trying to evaluate. If you think Lawrence is that guy, you pay that price. If you don't make the move and he turns into the second coming of Patrick Mahomes, it will haunt your franchise for a decade. Look at Chicago... they have built a Super Bowl caliber defense and a solid roster overall, but missed terribly on the QB with Trubisky. Missing on that single pick will cost that GM his job either this year or next. Could you imagine that team if they had taken either Mahomes or Watson?!?! They'd likely have a ring by now instead of KC.
However, you are probably right about it being a moot point with the Jets keeping the pick... but you never know.
(11-27-2020, 03:00 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]If he's going to try and force a trade, he's a [BLEEP] and not a true franchise QB.
(11-27-2020, 11:39 AM)Upper Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 03:00 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]If he's going to try and force a trade, he's a [BLEEP] and not a true franchise QB.
Maybe he would do it because we hire Dabo and he wants to keep the band together.
Also, it's not exactly like Elway and Eli weren't franchise QBs. Granted Eli is overrated.
(11-27-2020, 07:39 PM)airjoeo Wrote: [ -> ]1. Lawrence 2. Fields
Worst case scenario, we get Fields. We just need to keep on losing the rest of the way and go 1-15.
By the way does anyone know, if Jets and Jaguars are both 1-15, who takes first pick?
(11-27-2020, 03:00 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 12:35 AM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]Well that is what you are trying to evaluate. If you think Lawrence is that guy, you pay that price. If you don't make the move and he turns into the second coming of Patrick Mahomes, it will haunt your franchise for a decade. Look at Chicago... they have built a Super Bowl caliber defense and a solid roster overall, but missed terribly on the QB with Trubisky. Missing on that single pick will cost that GM his job either this year or next. Could you imagine that team if they had taken either Mahomes or Watson?!?! They'd likely have a ring by now instead of KC.
However, you are probably right about it being a moot point with the Jets keeping the pick... but you never know.
Mahomes went #10 overall though and Watson went #12. It's not like either of those guys were looked at as locks, so again it just proves how much of a crap shoot it is drafting QBs.
Most of these players that are hyped up as generational talents fail to live up to the hype.
There's really only two options why the Jets wouldn't take Lawrence. He either stays in school, or he tries to force a trade (or I guess they win a couple games, but that's highly unlikely). If he's going to try and force a trade, he's a [BLEEP] and not a true franchise QB.
(11-27-2020, 07:47 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 03:00 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes went #10 overall though and Watson went #12. It's not like either of those guys were looked at as locks, so again it just proves how much of a crap shoot it is drafting QBs.
Most of these players that are hyped up as generational talents fail to live up to the hype.
There's really only two options why the Jets wouldn't take Lawrence. He either stays in school, or he tries to force a trade (or I guess they win a couple games, but that's highly unlikely). If he's going to try and force a trade, he's a [BLEEP] and not a true franchise QB.
Lawrence is being spoken of like John Elway or Peyton Manning. Not since Andrew Luck has anyone been considered a generational talent like this. Not Cam Newton. Not Baker Mayfield. Not Sam Bradford. Not Matthew Stafford. What QB are you referring to that has been hyped like this and missed?
That being said, it will be up to our new GM to determine if that assessment is warranted and evaluate the price they would be willing to pay to get him. Unless the Jets can beat the Dolphins this weekend... that would help!
(11-27-2020, 07:54 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 07:47 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence is being spoken of like John Elway or Peyton Manning. Not since Andrew Luck has anyone been considered a generational talent like this. Not Cam Newton. Not Baker Mayfield. Not Sam Bradford. Not Matthew Stafford. What QB are you referring to that has been hyped like this and missed?
That being said, it will be up to our new GM to determine if that assessment is warranted and evaluate the price they would be willing to pay to get him. Unless the Jets can beat the Dolphins this weekend... that would help!
Generational type talent gets thrown around every year. I'm not just talking about the QB position, I'm talking about every position in general. They get put up so high on this pedestal, it's almost impossible for them to live up to the hype.
But regardless, I'm still hoping and rooting that the Jets can weasel out a win or two. My fingers are crossed and I've been rooting/watching them most every week.
(11-23-2020, 11:53 AM)HolsterHusto Wrote: [ -> ](11-23-2020, 11:45 AM)StroudCrowd1 Wrote: [ -> ]Why on Earth do you think Lawrence wouldn't want to play in the country's largest television market and opt to play for the Jaguars who have been historically horrible?
I didn’t say that he would demand a trade to Jax, just that he wouldn’t want to play for the Jets. But a few reasons could be:
1) No state income tax
2) Not having to deal with the NY media, which he already seems annoyed with based some of his Clemson press conferences
3) Small town southern kid may not like the idea of NY
4) Won’t have to play/live in New Jersey
5) Closer to home and his family
I don’t know how Trevor feels about NY... no one does. It’s not likely, but that is probably the only way NY would trade the pick.
(11-27-2020, 07:47 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 03:00 AM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes went #10 overall though and Watson went #12. It's not like either of those guys were looked at as locks, so again it just proves how much of a crap shoot it is drafting QBs.
Most of these players that are hyped up as generational talents fail to live up to the hype.
There's really only two options why the Jets wouldn't take Lawrence. He either stays in school, or he tries to force a trade (or I guess they win a couple games, but that's highly unlikely). If he's going to try and force a trade, he's a [BLEEP] and not a true franchise QB.
Lawrence is being spoken of like John Elway or Peyton Manning. Not since Andrew Luck has anyone been considered a generational talent like this. Not Cam Newton. Not Baker Mayfield. Not Sam Bradford. Not Matthew Stafford. What QB are you referring to that has been hyped like this and missed?
That being said, it will be up to our new GM to determine if that assessment is warranted and evaluate the price they would be willing to pay to get him. Unless the Jets can beat the Dolphins this weekend... that would help!
(11-27-2020, 11:26 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ](11-27-2020, 07:47 PM)NeptuneBeachBum Wrote: [ -> ]Lawrence is being spoken of like John Elway or Peyton Manning. Not since Andrew Luck has anyone been considered a generational talent like this. Not Cam Newton. Not Baker Mayfield. Not Sam Bradford. Not Matthew Stafford. What QB are you referring to that has been hyped like this and missed?
That being said, it will be up to our new GM to determine if that assessment is warranted and evaluate the price they would be willing to pay to get him. Unless the Jets can beat the Dolphins this weekend... that would help!
I gotta disagree with this assessment. I like Lawrence a lot and see him as by far, the best QB prospect in this draft, but I definitely don't consider him a generational talent. In fact, I don't think he's as good as Joe Burrow was coming out of college last year and I certainly don't think he's as good as Andrew Luck was either. Luck was the last QB that I would've genuinely given almost anything to trade up for. I just don't like trading up, ever. Luck was the only time I went against that idea. In general, I like trading down and accumulating picks or just staying put. If we finish with the #2 pick, I say stay put and take Sewell. If we finish lower than #2, I'd have to see who's ahead of us. In my mind there is two elite players in that draft (Lawrence and Sewell.) If we can't get either one, we might as well trade down a few spots and accumulate more picks for 2022.