It is interesting because we want an ascending team that is building up. Something our eyes tell us is real. As a fan of this team, you could see it in 1995 and then reflected in 1996. Walking out of the stadium in 2000 after that 1999 team lost to one team all year people with eyes knew it was over.
We got the same build up under JDR.
Honestly the last regime all under DC as GM was a disaster. We only saw the defense build and show signs of success. The offense was a sham and it made 2017 a blown opportunity. As fun as Minshew was the team wasn't good enough. Those wins weren't building to anything.
With a franchise first, and coinciding with TL I hope this does it and we have a foundational transformation.
I remember we missed out on Andrew Luck almost 10 years ago. I’ve never been for tanking. But somehow with the butterfly effect it let us have Trevor Lawrence in 2021.
It makes that game back in 2011 in Indy feel a lot better...
(04-20-2021, 08:34 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (04-20-2021, 08:27 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]what the fart? please cite any example in the history of all sports of a team being accused of tanking for the tenth or twentieth pick of a draft.
Exactly. If a team truly wanted to tank, they would be bringing guys off the street to take the field. There is a difference between incompetent roster building/management and intentional attempts to lose.
lol Thank you.
The board does this song and dance every single off season. No coaches or players purposefully try to lose games. That's not what tanking is. Tanking is putting out inferior players (or coaches) in order to give your team a better chance at losing. Those players on the field or court are trying to win the game but they're just not good enough. The Sixers did it for years and I think the Jags/Jets tried that this year.
And for me personally, I either want to have the 1st overall pick or make the playoffs. Continually being 7-9 or 6-10 does nothing for your franchise. "Yea but what about finishing strong!" Nah. There's no correlation between ending the season with a few wins and then continuing that streak the next season.
Regarding that last bit, I'll differ to a degree. A young, up and coming team that is 2-10 will get a lot of value from learning how to seal an otherwise meaningless win. Otherwise, I agree, if you are about to start a complete roster overhaul, those late wins only complicate the process. We've seen that far too often, unfortunately.
(04-20-2021, 11:26 AM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-20-2021, 10:46 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Yea. Except this doesn't happen..... Culture isn't changed by winning a few meaningless games at the end of a season. Raiders won their last game of the season..... is their culture changed?
Also, why wouldn't you want to play backups for the last 2 games if you're out of playoff contention? It's almost like a pre-season game. See what some of these younger dudes have.
I also agree with Bullseye. If you are a young ascending team (Chargers), then maybe those late season wins mean something. However, they fired their coach and are starting over anyway so who cares?
This has nothing to do with a "loser mentality." Having better players gives your team a better chance to win and the best way to acquire these better players is with higher draft picks. Spurs tanked a season and ended up with Duncan.
Not just the few wins at the end of a season, every game. That's how to change the culture. All those top 5 and top 10 picks did us a lot of good didn't it? It's just a loser mentality, some people like to win at everything, some doesn't mind losing. If your GM needs pick 18 instead of pick 20 to pick the right guy you have the wrong GM. So the wins wins late in the season means something for the Chargers but not the other team? Lol, ok
How many of those top picks would still be here had Shad not brought TC in? They didn't leave because the team had a losing culture - they left because the team was operated by a despot who was violating league standards and did everything in his power to drive them out.
Let's put it this way. Next season, we are 3-10. We're sitting fourth in the darft order. TLaw has had moments, but rookie mistakes, a suspect line, and new defense all conspire to make victories rare. But, the light bulb goes off, the line starts to gel, and the D is getting off the field on third downs. TLaw is commanding the offense, and we finish 6-11, tenth in the darft order. Ain't nobody going to say we should put Beathard in so we could darft (insert prospect name here) at pick 5.
Now go back a year. We're 1-10. Second in the darft order. Poor QB play overshadows the promise of a young undrafted rookie RB. The defense forces the offense to win by shootout, a task they are incapable of accomplishing. Fans and team alike have seemed to have given up on the coach, GM, and maybe even the owner. The coach gives a few rah-rah speeches, and guys give their all, we finish 5-11, picking eighth in the draft.
Are fans going to cheer the lack of give-up in their squad, or are they going to lament that yet again, we have an enormous need at QB, and are likely to miss out on the top guys, same as it ever was?
It's not just about W-L. Your roster guides your perspective.
(04-20-2021, 12:23 PM)Predator Wrote: [ -> ]What are you talking about?
Late season wins means everything to someone's future job prospects.No one wants to hire someone who quits.
And to think someone would lose on purpose just to help the people who are firing them is just ridiculous. They couldn't give a rats [BLEEP] about the teams fortunes once they are gone. If anything they would be vindictive and want to ruin things for the team that is firing them.
We got two firsts for Ramsey.
A good number of the top picks in this darft opted out of last season.
URBZ QUIT ON TWO DIFFERENT TEAMS
(04-20-2021, 12:49 PM)flgatorsandjags Wrote: [ -> ] (04-20-2021, 12:28 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I don't go to games but if you think I haven't suffered through losing, then you are mistaken. Caps, Orioles, Terps and Jags..... Not exactly murderers row. I have gone to plenty of Orioles, Terps and Caps games throughout the years and most of the time, I'm going to the games to enjoy the atmosphere and party with friends. The outcome, most of the time, is largely irrelevant. It doesn't effect my day one bit. Playoff games are different though but outside of the Caps, not a lot of that happening.
Here's the list of 6-10, 7-9 or 8-8 teams from last season (excluding WFT and Chicago who made playoffs). Pats, Raiders, Chargers, Giants, Cowboys, Bears, Vikings, and Cards. Of those teams, I would say 2 or 3 have a better roster or better shot at making the playoffs than the Jags. And yet, they had 5-7 more wins than the Jags last season. I don't think the Bears, Pats, Raiders, or Giants are that much better than the Jags or even better at all for that matter.
Winning games is extremely important but the overall goal is to make the playoffs and ultimately a championship. If you don't make the playoffs, there is no difference in your record in my eyes. No playoffs means you have a lot of work to do and I would rather have a larger player pool to choose from when it comes to the draft.
I would rather the team win every game but to me, there is no difference between 3-13 and 7-9 or 8-8. Both miss the playoffs and both have work to do. Games are largely decided by 1 score. Going 7-9 vs 3-13 largely means you got lucky in 3 games. It doesn't mean you're that much better than the rest of the bad teams. They're all bad.
There is a difference to me. 7-9 means this team is improving and likely learning how to win, 3-13 the team hasn't improved much and we are likely picking top 5 again. Like you say, the outcome of a game is irrelevant to you, losses really doesn't bother you. Some people hate to lose, I'm one of them and I hope are players are like that too because I know our coach is.
If we start out 5-1 and finish 7-10, though, that is going to speak volumes, just like an 0-13 start finishing 3-14 would. Again, just looking at the W-L record is a fool's errand.
(04-20-2021, 06:55 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]I remember we missed out on Andrew Luck almost 10 years ago. I’ve never been for tanking. But somehow with the butterfly effect it let us have Trevor Lawrence in 2021.
It makes that game back in 2011 in Indy feel a lot better...
Not only did we miss on Luck, we actually beat the Colts (who were tanking) in week 17 to enable them to gain the #1 pick. Thank God he didn't turn out to be the next Manning as I couldn't have dealt with a Colts 30 year run at AFC South titles. Heck, back in the Manning era, you had to win over 12 games to win the division over the Colts. I think we were 12-4 and finished 2nd in the division to the Colts back in the day.
(04-21-2021, 09:46 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ] (04-20-2021, 06:55 PM)JagFanatic24 Wrote: [ -> ]I remember we missed out on Andrew Luck almost 10 years ago. I’ve never been for tanking. But somehow with the butterfly effect it let us have Trevor Lawrence in 2021.
It makes that game back in 2011 in Indy feel a lot better...
Not only did we miss on Luck, we actually beat the Colts (who were tanking) in week 17 to enable them to gain the #1 pick. Thank God he didn't turn out to be the next Manning as I couldn't have dealt with a Colts 30 year run at AFC South titles. Heck, back in the Manning era, you had to win over 12 games to win the division over the Colts. I think we were 12-4 and finished 2nd in the division to the Colts back in the day.
You really think the Colts were losing on purpose? Jim Caldwell got fired right after that season. And what about the players? You think the players were playing poorly on purpose? How is that good for them?
No, that wasn't tanking, if tanking means losing on purpose.
(04-21-2021, 10:05 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (04-21-2021, 09:46 AM)HURRICANE!!! Wrote: [ -> ]Not only did we miss on Luck, we actually beat the Colts (who were tanking) in week 17 to enable them to gain the #1 pick. Thank God he didn't turn out to be the next Manning as I couldn't have dealt with a Colts 30 year run at AFC South titles. Heck, back in the Manning era, you had to win over 12 games to win the division over the Colts. I think we were 12-4 and finished 2nd in the division to the Colts back in the day.
You really think the Colts were losing on purpose? Jim Caldwell got fired right after that season. And what about the players? You think the players were playing poorly on purpose? How is that good for them?
No, that wasn't tanking, if tanking means losing on purpose.
Maybe...maybe not.
Either way, Colts' ownership wasn't broken up about it. I guess he isn't a fan of the team he inherited and owns.
https://www.nfl.com/news/jim-irsay-thank...0000454924