Jacksonville Jaguars Fan Forums

I do not like or hate Cowerd but he does have some good videos sometimes. This video compares Wilson and Lawrence. Midway through he has some very good stats about players under pressure.

Moral of the story: if you want to optimize TL's effectiveness, protect him well.

(04-22-2021, 06:28 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Moral of the story:  if you want to optimize TL's effectiveness, protect him well.

To be a bit more specific, just having an elite QB isn't enough to always beat other teams that have their own effective QB. Having the elite QB probably makes you 3 or 4 wins better over a given regular season compared with having a middle tier starting QB (middle tier of starters, not taking backups into account), and more like 5 or 6 over a backup level QB, but you still need a good well coached team around him to be a superbowl level team. As a rookie I don't expect Trevor to start out elite, but if the Jaguars can be a roster that is capable of winning 6 or 7 games with mediocre quarterback play then we can probably be a greater than .500 team with Trevor.

The real moral: Even the best Qb's struggle with pressure.

I think the level of competition is pretty important, and Wilson, in his one great year, played a long string of nobodies.

While he does have a great arm, there's a lot more to quarterbacking than that, and I would much prefer a rookie QB with a longer track record against much better competition, such as Trevor Lawrence or Justin Fields.

'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers... Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny. As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire. I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

(04-23-2021, 04:21 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers...  Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny.  As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire.  I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

The NFC championship bore it out, he doesn't lift a team to a win. He's a great stat gainer, but his entire career has been defined by running up the score on bad teams in his division and failing to make an impact on the playoffs.

(04-23-2021, 07:08 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]The NFC championship bore it out, he doesn't lift a team to a win. He's a great stat gainer, but his entire career has been defined by running up the score on bad teams in his division and failing to make an impact on the playoffs.

Do not agree with you.  The issue was Tampa's front 4 was savage and made even the best QB's in the league look average.  Mahomes who people already crowned the new Goat looked very mediocre in the Superbowl.  Tom Brady posted a rating of 40 against pressure last year.  I can't blame Rodgers for his line not protecting and receivers not getting open.

A dominant defense will always beat a dominant offense. Tampa let the dogs out on those QB's and the offensive lines couldn't hold.  Rodgers is a special kind of breed and a first ballot HOF'er IMO.

(04-23-2021, 09:09 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-23-2021, 07:08 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]The NFC championship bore it out, he doesn't lift a team to a win. He's a great stat gainer, but his entire career has been defined by running up the score on bad teams in his division and failing to make an impact on the playoffs.

Do not agree with you.  The issue was Tampa's front 4 was savage and made even the best QB's in the league look average.  Mahomes who people already crowned the new Goat looked very mediocre in the Superbowl.  Tom Brady posted a rating of 40 against pressure last year.  I can't blame Rodgers for his line not protecting and receivers not getting open.

A dominant defense will always beat a dominant offense. Tampa let the dogs out on those QB's and the offensive lines couldn't hold.  Rodgers is a special kind of breed and a first ballot HOF'er IMO.

If it were just last year then you'd be right. Rodgers has had a problem lifting his team against superior competition his whole career.

(04-23-2021, 09:09 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-23-2021, 07:08 PM)SeldomRite Wrote: [ -> ]The NFC championship bore it out, he doesn't lift a team to a win. He's a great stat gainer, but his entire career has been defined by running up the score on bad teams in his division and failing to make an impact on the playoffs.

Do not agree with you.  The issue was Tampa's front 4 was savage and made even the best QB's in the league look average.  Mahomes who people already crowned the new Goat looked very mediocre in the Superbowl.  Tom Brady posted a rating of 40 against pressure last year.  I can't blame Rodgers for his line not protecting and receivers not getting open.

A dominant defense will always beat a dominant offense. Tampa let the dogs out on those QB's and the offensive lines couldn't hold.  Rodgers is a special kind of breed and a first ballot HOF'er IMO.

I mean Rodgers was trying to force feed the ball into Davante Adams all game. Instead of reading the field and trusting the TE or anyone else. Especially for the first FG drive in the red zone, and even later when he didn't scramble for more yards on 3rd down. Even if he expected to go for it on 4th, no reason to not scramble there.

I know McCarthy wasn't exactly an offensive genius, but Rodgers seems to have a tendency to go off book because he can more than he should, and that doesn't always work.

I saw this clip yesterday, completely agree about the nitpicking. I cant help but laugh at QB draft evaluations nowadays, hyped to the moon and 'NFL ready' but just look at some of the 'cant miss' prospects there have been. Goff, Wentz, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky....

And that brings me to the Zach Wilson segment. 0 wins against 10+ W teams. Would you spend a #2 pick on him? Would you draft him over trading for a Watson/Wilson/Rodgers? 

If I were a Jets fan, I'd be worried. Thank God we have #1.

(04-24-2021, 10:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this clip yesterday, completely agree about the nitpicking. I cant help but laugh at QB draft evaluations nowadays, hyped to the moon and 'NFL ready' but just look at some of the 'cant miss' prospects there have been. Goff, Wentz, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky....

And that brings me to the Zach Wilson segment. 0 wins against 10+ W teams. Would you spend a #2 pick on him? Would you draft him over trading for a Watson/Wilson/Rodgers? 

If I were a Jets fan, I'd be worried. Thank God we have #1.

If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

(04-23-2021, 04:21 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers...  Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny.  As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire.  I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

(04-24-2021, 10:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this clip yesterday, completely agree about the nitpicking. I cant help but laugh at QB draft evaluations nowadays, hyped to the moon and 'NFL ready' but just look at some of the 'cant miss' prospects there have been. Goff, Wentz, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky....

And that brings me to the Zach Wilson segment. 0 wins against 10+ W teams. Would you spend a #2 pick on him? Would you draft him over trading for a Watson/Wilson/Rodgers? 

If I were a Jets fan, I'd be worried. Thank God we have #1.

If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

(04-23-2021, 04:21 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers...  Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny.  As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire.  I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

Completely agree Bullseye. I get having a high pick is the chance to take a top QB prospect and every team wants that QB but I look at someone like the Jets and like you say, so many holes. They had Darnold, a top 5 pick on a horrible team, trade him for peanuts and now going QB again. You could take Sewell, Pitts, give the QB some help.

Cant help but think Zach Wilson is going to have a very similar development path that Darnold had. Poor kid.

(04-24-2021, 10:49 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Completely agree Bullseye. I get having a high pick is the chance to take a top QB prospect and every team wants that QB but I look at someone like the Jets and like you say, so many holes. They had Darnold, a top 5 pick on a horrible team, trade him for peanuts and now going QB again. You could take Sewell, Pitts, give the QB some help.

Cant help but think Zach Wilson is going to have a very similar development path that Darnold had. Poor kid.

NYC has got to be the worst market for a young qb.  The unrelenting scrutiny and negativity are magnified there.  Plus, the two teams are not good.  The Jets are a continual dumpster fire.

(04-24-2021, 11:17 AM)I am Yoda Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:49 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Completely agree Bullseye. I get having a high pick is the chance to take a top QB prospect and every team wants that QB but I look at someone like the Jets and like you say, so many holes. They had Darnold, a top 5 pick on a horrible team, trade him for peanuts and now going QB again. You could take Sewell, Pitts, give the QB some help.

Cant help but think Zach Wilson is going to have a very similar development path that Darnold had. Poor kid.

NYC has got to be the worst market for a young qb.  The unrelenting scrutiny and negativity are magnified there.  Plus, the two teams are not good.  The Jets are a continual dumpster fire.

Think about the scrutiny Trevor Lawrence received for his innocuous statements to SI.  Can you imagine what he would get in New York as jets' QB?!?

---

(04-24-2021, 10:49 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

Completely agree Bullseye. I get having a high pick is the chance to take a top QB prospect and every team wants that QB but I look at someone like the Jets and like you say, so many holes. They had Darnold, a top 5 pick on a horrible team, trade him for peanuts and now going QB again. You could take Sewell, Pitts, give the QB some help.

Cant help but think Zach Wilson is going to have a very similar development path that Darnold had. Poor kid.

Due to free agency, they are actually okay at WR with Crowder, Davis, Cole and the rookie they took last year-Mims.  They signed a decent RB in Tevin Coleman.  He's not a between the tackles pounder, but can get you some decent yardage and provides more of a burst than Frank Gore last year (thank you again for that first down catch, kind sir).  They signed Dan Feeney from the Chargers to be their C (was never a big fan of his coming out of Indiana).  But they need a T opposite Becton and guards, and a RB to complement Coleman.

Nevertheless, I can't feel too badly for him or the Jets.

None of them felt badly for us all those years.  All they did was trash us.  Besides, as I indicated, the Jets, in particular, may be competing with us for many of the same players at the same positions.  If it came down to Lawrence or Wilson getting the help they need to succeed, I eagerly, enthusiastically, vehemently choose Lawrence every single time without hesitation.

(04-22-2021, 06:28 PM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]Moral of the story:  if you want to optimize TL's effectiveness, protect him well.

Bingo!

(04-23-2021, 05:13 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think the level of competition is pretty important, and Wilson, in his one great year, played a long string of nobodies.  

While he does have a great arm, there's a lot more to quarterbacking than that, and I would much prefer a rookie QB with a longer track record against much better competition, such as Trevor Lawrence or Justin Fields.

It's really weird how level of competition works when it comes to QBs.  I read this criticism of Wilson and it seems fair and valid on its face.  There's something to be said for beating the best of the best at your level of play.  He was winless against the best of the best at his level of play.  Furthermore, if you are up against an inferior level of competition, how do scouts truly evaluate your performance?  Do we give you credit for completing an out that stands no chance of being completed against a higher level of competition?  But then I see guys like McNair, Steve Young, Joe Flacco, Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, Terry bradshaw and several other QBs from smaller schools playing lower levels of competition have success in the league.

I'm just glad the Jaguars really don't have to make that evaluation with Lawrence.  He has played against a much higher level of competition and has performed well.

(04-24-2021, 10:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this clip yesterday, completely agree about the nitpicking. I cant help but laugh at QB draft evaluations nowadays, hyped to the moon and 'NFL ready' but just look at some of the 'cant miss' prospects there have been. Goff, Wentz, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky....

And that brings me to the Zach Wilson segment. 0 wins against 10+ W teams. Would you spend a #2 pick on him? Would you draft him over trading for a Watson/Wilson/Rodgers? 

If I were a Jets fan, I'd be worried. Thank God we have #1.

If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

(04-23-2021, 04:21 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers...  Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny.  As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire.  I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

Dan Marino only reached one.  It's a team sport.

(04-24-2021, 05:26 PM)jaguarmvp Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

Dan Marino only reached one.  It's a team sport.

Yes it is a team sport, which is why I was saying it may or may not be his fault.

I know Rodgers was working with more than Dan Marino when it came to a running game and defense.

I'm not saying Rodgers isn't a Hall of Famer.  He has been a great player over the years.  But to me he should have more than one Super Bowl to his credit.

(04-24-2021, 10:27 AM)Bullseye Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-24-2021, 10:15 AM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this clip yesterday, completely agree about the nitpicking. I cant help but laugh at QB draft evaluations nowadays, hyped to the moon and 'NFL ready' but just look at some of the 'cant miss' prospects there have been. Goff, Wentz, Rosen, Darnold, Trubisky....

And that brings me to the Zach Wilson segment. 0 wins against 10+ W teams. Would you spend a #2 pick on him? Would you draft him over trading for a Watson/Wilson/Rodgers? 

If I were a Jets fan, I'd be worried. Thank God we have #1.

If I'm the Jets, I go heavy in the OL and RB.  I go after a RT and some guards.  They are okay at C and good at LT.  While they could definitely use a CB, at the end of the day, they can't expect to make the same mistakes with Wilson they did with Darnold and expect him to survive, much less thrive.

I have a feeling we'll be competing with the Jets for many of the same players.

---

(04-23-2021, 04:21 PM)scottyg Wrote: [ -> ]'Front-runner' for Aaron Rodgers...  Felt that way about him for years. He's moved up some in the past couple years, but he's so far down the list for most 4th quarter comebacks in his career, it's funny.  As good as he is, you'd think he'd pull more games out of the fire.  I don't know, maybe he hardly ever needs to because he IS so good.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/l...career.htm

The only problem I've had with Aaron Rodgers is that somehow he only reached one Super Bowl.

This may or may not be his fault.  But all things considered, he should have multiple Super Bowls on his resume.  Appearances if not rings.

I mean he's only been starting for 12 seasons.  At the same point in Peyton's career, he only had 2 super bowl appearances.  Granted, he had Brady to contend with.  But in only two of those seasons did he lose to Brady specifically.