I'm reading some interesting conversations in a reddit Afghanistan thread about how things went down over there. One conversation was specifically about the ANA surrendering after their chain of command ordered them to. Another reason they surrendered was they ran out of ammo and simply couldn't fight anymore. One question/comment in particular was interesting.
It's a domino effect too though not just crooked. If you see cities falling and it looks like you're going to lose. Wouldn't you rather surrender and hope to have some favour with the Taliban rather than fight and lose men and possibly be executed? And if you decide that then surrendering becomes even more appealing to the next leader along the line.
None of us knows how we'll react in high stress situations but my first reaction to the bolded part was, hell no I would not surrender. As a woman I'd just be trafficked for sex so obviously I would 100% fight to the death and I just wouldn't go down without a fight. But you guys would have.....options. Would you fight no matter what or would you surrender?
Never surrender.
What has been clearly taken out of context is the why the AFA fell so quickly. Also not widely published is the fact that the rise of the Taliban has been watched and predicted. One must ask themselves "who is supplying the Taliban and how are they funded"? Look just a bit to the east for the answer.
I'd fight for my country that I love with all my heart and soul in a heartbeat....... I may walk with a cane and my mobility is severely limited right now but...... I can still load a weapon and pull a trigger. I'd rather give my last drop of blood and take my last breath as a free man then live as a slave.....
Absolutely, I would fight. Does anyone actually believe that they would be in good standing with the Taliban if they were fighting against them and suddenly decided to surrender? Surrendering to those guys would mean certain death. They aren't very forgiving people. The very idea of this is ludicrous! I'd rather die fighting, than go out like a coward. You're likely to die either way, but at least you'd show some integrity.
(08-22-2021, 05:32 PM)TheO-LineMatters Wrote: [ -> ]I'd rather die fighting, than go out like a coward. You're likely to die either way, but at least you'd show some integrity.
Yep. If my freedom depends on my fighting, I fight. If the freedom of my country depends on my fighting and dying, then I fight and die. I certainly would not become a bargaining chip/POW for them.
Plus, my mother didn't raise a pansy.
As a female raised in the south (not to mention after I went into the Army) I've had to fight (and fight off) all kinds of people, institutions, preconceived notions, prejudices, etc., and still do.
(08-22-2021, 04:20 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]Never surrender.
What has been clearly taken out of context is the why the AFA fell so quickly. Also not widely published is the fact that the rise of the Taliban has been watched and predicted. One must ask themselves "who is supplying the Taliban and how are they funded"? Look just a bit to the east for the answer.
There are a lot who believe China is funding them and I can actually see that as an option. Some think Russia, but I'm not there yet.
The following is another part of the conversation that I thought to be pretty interesting....
That's not the reason. One was because of longterm betrayal in the ANA that I detailed out and wrote in another comment. The other was because of this:
(1) Why are some soldiers in the Afghan National Army not fighting back? I have been asked this question repeatedly over the past week. Here is some background. First: Casualties and death rates.
(2) Over the past several years Afghan soldiers have been fighting the Taliban and other insurgency groups daily, with the U.S. military providing mostly aerial support and training. And they have been killed and injured in large numbers.
(3) So, it is not like the U.S. military has been training one soldier for a decade, some of them have had only several months of training, before they were killed or injured and a new recruit would take their place.
(4) Second: Entry Level Skills – when one joins the military here at home, there are basic skills that are already acquired. That’s not the case in Afghanistan.
(5) Before any training could even begin, some soldiers needed to be taught how to read, write, drive a car or a truck, how to read instructions or follow a manual. So, the time it took to properly train would be much longer than expected.
(6) Third: Chronic Corruption – in our conversations with Afghan soldiers we have heard all kinds of stories. Commanders stealing the food to sell it on the market for profit, and leaving soldiers with inadequate supplies of rice and meat;
(7) Depriving them of SIM cards, so they cannot call their families; not giving them enough vacation to rest or recover, and of course no mental health counseling of any kind, even after repeated exposure to war.
(8) So, it is not that hard to understand why a 20-something young man might not want to sacrifice his life for leaders he does not respect, for a government he does not trust, and without any U.S. support to help.
(9) And one final point – Afghanistan does have Special Forces – they are called commandoes. These soldiers are highly trained, brave and dedicated. They fight with zeal.
(10) But what they lost with the U.S. withdrawal is the American Special Forces in their ear on many of the missions, watching them over drones, alerting them to danger and helping them out. So, even for them without this help, fighting became hard on a different level.
If I had to do it all over again. I would have served. There have been many times that I have looked back and kicked myself for not doing so.
(08-22-2021, 04:09 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm reading some interesting conversations in a reddit Afghanistan thread about how things went down over there. One conversation was specifically about the ANA surrendering after their chain of command ordered them to. Another reason they surrendered was they ran out of ammo and simply couldn't fight anymore. One question/comment in particular was interesting.
It's a domino effect too though not just crooked. If you see cities falling and it looks like you're going to lose. Wouldn't you rather surrender and hope to have some favour with the Taliban rather than fight and lose men and possibly be executed? And if you decide that then surrendering becomes even more appealing to the next leader along the line.
None of us knows how we'll react in high stress situations but my first reaction to the bolded part was, hell no I would not surrender. As a woman I'd just be trafficked for sex so obviously I would 100% fight to the death and I just wouldn't go down without a fight. But you guys would have.....options. Would you fight no matter what or would you surrender?
Let me try to post again.
I am sure of the answer for anyone that served. For me personally, I would rather die defending the country I grew up in than surrendering for any reason.
I'm probably going to die fighting other Americans for my Country.
(08-22-2021, 09:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm probably going to die fighting other Americans for my Country.
Sadly I agree with this statement.
(08-22-2021, 09:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm probably going to die of ADE.
Jk. But I hope it never comes to what you suggest. We can not win that war.
(08-22-2021, 09:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm probably going to die fighting other Americans for my Country.
It's a possibility I don't want to think about.
In countries where tribalism is stronger than nationalism it seems the Taliban have no problem fighting, killing and torturing people who are culturally similar. I wonder how that would play out here. As divided as this country is right now it would seem to be split between left and right; a political divide. But I believe it would be more nuanced than that.
Sad times we live in where this is even a discussion.
(08-22-2021, 06:38 PM)Jags Wrote: [ -> ]If I had to do it all over again. I would have served. There have been many times that I have looked back and kicked myself for not doing so.
My husband says the same. He wanted to serve but his dad talked him out of it.
"Live fee or die. Death is not the greatest of evils."
General John Stark, July 31, 1809
(08-22-2021, 09:47 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2021, 09:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm probably going to die fighting other Americans for my Country.
It's a possibility I don't want to think about.
In countries where tribalism is stronger than nationalism it seems the Taliban have no problem fighting, killing and torturing people who are culturally similar. I wonder how that would play out here. As divided as this country is right now it would seem to be split between left and right; a political divide. But I believe it would be more nuanced than that.
Sad times we live in where this is even a discussion.
This is why I don't think conservatives can win. In war, it's most often the side that is willing to push the farthest that comes out on top. This is also why I think communism has had to be defeated by fascism. The radical left will keep pushing until it meets an opposition force strong enough to contend against it, which means the power of the state will need to be used to it's fullest capabilities. If we end up in war, we have almost certainly lost the guiding principles of the constitution.
(08-22-2021, 09:22 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2021, 09:16 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]I'm probably going to die of ADE.
Jk. But I hope it never comes to what you suggest. We can not win that war.
The hell we can't.
Edit: And I guess I would be the first since no one else has.
(08-22-2021, 10:20 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2021, 09:47 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]It's a possibility I don't want to think about.
In countries where tribalism is stronger than nationalism it seems the Taliban have no problem fighting, killing and torturing people who are culturally similar. I wonder how that would play out here. As divided as this country is right now it would seem to be split between left and right; a political divide. But I believe it would be more nuanced than that.
Sad times we live in where this is even a discussion.
This is why I don't think conservatives can win. In war, it's most often the side that is willing to push the farthest that comes out on top. This is also why I think communism has had to be defeated by fascism. The radical left will keep pushing until it meets an opposition force strong enough to contend against it, which means the power of the state will need to be used to it's fullest capabilities. If we end up in war, we have almost certainly lost the guiding principles of the constitution.
Sadly, that is true. Everyone is seemingly abandoning more cohesive forms of government in favor of radicalism nowadays. Whether it's radical conservatism or radical leftist, these factions are growing all over the world and it's frightening.
(08-22-2021, 10:20 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (08-22-2021, 09:47 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]It's a possibility I don't want to think about.
In countries where tribalism is stronger than nationalism it seems the Taliban have no problem fighting, killing and torturing people who are culturally similar. I wonder how that would play out here. As divided as this country is right now it would seem to be split between left and right; a political divide. But I believe it would be more nuanced than that.
Sad times we live in where this is even a discussion.
This is why I don't think conservatives can win. In war, it's most often the side that is willing to push the farthest that comes out on top. This is also why I think communism has had to be defeated by fascism. The radical left will keep pushing until it meets an opposition force strong enough to contend against it, which means the power of the state will need to be used to it's fullest capabilities. If we end up in war, we have almost certainly lost the guiding principles of the constitution.
I was thinking about this earlier today and have a theory on why this happens but it's too late to type it out tonight, especially on my cellphone.
(08-22-2021, 04:09 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm reading some interesting conversations in a reddit Afghanistan thread about how things went down over there. One conversation was specifically about the ANA surrendering after their chain of command ordered them to. Another reason they surrendered was they ran out of ammo and simply couldn't fight anymore. One question/comment in particular was interesting.
It's a domino effect too though not just crooked. If you see cities falling and it looks like you're going to lose. Wouldn't you rather surrender and hope to have some favour with the Taliban rather than fight and lose men and possibly be executed? And if you decide that then surrendering becomes even more appealing to the next leader along the line.
None of us knows how we'll react in high stress situations but my first reaction to the bolded part was, hell no I would not surrender. As a woman I'd just be trafficked for sex so obviously I would 100% fight to the death and I just wouldn't go down without a fight. But you guys would have.....options. Would you fight no matter what or would you surrender?
I agree that one never knows how they will react in a life or death situation.
Would I fight for my country? Yes.
Would I die for my country? That's a tough one. I don't know. We give out medals to people who do that. That means it's not an easy thing to do.
I'm glad people are willing to serve. But our politicians get us into so many idiotic debacles, I don't think I would volunteer to do "whatever they tell me to do."
Some wars are clear cut good vs evil. Other wars involve defending economic interests. Would you die for Exxon? If you were British, would you die to defend the far reaches of the British Empire against the people who live there?
Someone mentioned surrender. Would I ever surrender? Aren't we glad the Germans finally surrendered in WW2? On the other hand, a lot of times in war, soldiers surrender even though they know they will probably not survive as a POW. That has never made sense to me. I wonder if the Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad knew they would be marched off to Siberia to die of starvation or to be worked to death.
It's a great question. "Would you fight for your country?" Yes, probably, but I would want to know that I was actually fighting for my country, and not just fighting for Exxon, or fighting to preserve an empire. In the Civil War they used to say, "Rich man's war, poor man's fight." It's the poor people in this country who lose their life in combat, or come home crippled, or with PTSD. What are we persuading people to do, and why? Maybe we're better off ignoring that question, because we are all grateful that people volunteer to serve in our armed forces.
I would absolutely fight for my country but I would do so under a command structure. If my command structure fell apart, as the ANA's did, it would be pointless to keep fighting openly. I'd have to take off the uniform and decide if I wanted to try to live a quiet life under enemy rule, or run to another country, or attempt disorganized/guerilla warfare against the enemy. No idea what I would choose
(08-23-2021, 02:57 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I would absolutely fight for my country but I would do so under a command structure. If my command structure fell apart, as the ANA's did, it would be pointless to keep fighting openly. I'd have to take off the uniform and decide if I wanted to try to live a quiet life under enemy rule, or run to another country, or attempt disorganized/guerilla warfare against the enemy. No idea what I would choose
That is why local is always better working together, united .... that's why the country has worked. If the government falls, who cares, you have your local leadership who can organize and communicate with other local leadership all the way across the country.
If the government is too big and takes everything down without it, it is too big.