What do we think of the debt ceiling standoff?
The President is blaming Republicans of course, and there is some basis for that because this problem is usually fixed with votes from both parties.
I just don't see why Democrats won't go ahead and pass the increase to the debt limit without Republican votes. They get three chances at reconciliation per year, did they already use two? I think they only used one.
In Congress, everybody is a little bit to blame, but the majority party is always more to blame than the minority party.
You can't blame Republicans when they could have the votes with full support from the democrats.
(10-04-2021, 04:12 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]You can't blame Republicans when they could have the votes with full support from the democrats.
It depends if there is some type of limit on how many times they can use reconciliation per year.
But even so, if Republicans have the power to fix this but they refuse to help, then they bear some responsibility if it breaks. Not as much as the majority party but still some. It would be like if the EMT refused to help the motorcycle accident victim. "He should have worn a helmet, he alone is responsible for where he is." Maybe, but you can help and you should help!
Do Republicans want to see us default on the debt? I don't think they do.
(10-04-2021, 04:07 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]What do we think of the debt ceiling standoff?
The President is blaming Republicans of course, and there is some basis for that because this problem is usually fixed with votes from both parties.
I just don't see why Democrats won't go ahead and pass the increase to the debt limit without Republican votes. They get three chances at reconciliation per year, did they already use two? I think they only used one.
In Congress, everybody is a little bit to blame, but the majority party is always more to blame than the minority party.
There are a few problems with this. At some point this needs to stop.
The "basic" problem is borrowing money in order to pay off money owed. That's pretty much the same as not being able to pay your credit card bill, so you raise the credit limit (borrow more money) to pay it.
The second problem is that the democrats don't want to raise the debt ceiling to pay off existing debt, they also want to increase it enough to pay for their "green pipe dream" bill. In my analogy it's like borrowing money not only to pay your credit card bill, but also to buy something else.
When you look at the claimed "$3.5T" green pipe dream bill that democrats want to push though, it's filled with massive pork.
Another problem is that the democrats are claiming that their $3.5T pipe dream bill "won't cost anything" because they want to raise taxes on pretty much everyone. They target the "corporate tax rate" as well as "capital gains" and "estate taxes" in order to "get money from the wealthy". All three of those targets sound good to many people, but they don't realize just how much it would hurt everyone.
No. No Republican needs to vote for a reckless spending bill. This is a bloated bill made by democrats, and, if they want to pass it, they have the votes to do so. Republicans withholding their votes is their way of saying Democrats need to own this bill. If the Dems can't get their own people on board, that's entirely on them. Why do you struggle with this?
(10-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]No. No Republican needs to vote for a reckless spending bill. This is a bloated bill made by democrats, and, if they want to pass it, they have the votes to do so. Republicans withholding their votes is their way of saying Democrats need to own this bill. If the Dems can't get their own people on board, that's entirely on them. Why do you struggle with this?
Exactly. There are two senate members of Mikesez's party that don't agree with it, and that's the hold up.
(10-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]No. No Republican needs to vote for a reckless spending bill. This is a bloated bill made by democrats, and, if they want to pass it, they have the votes to do so. Republicans withholding their votes is their way of saying Democrats need to own this bill. If the Dems can't get their own people on board, that's entirely on them. Why do you struggle with this?
I'm just talking about the debt limit. Republicans should vote for the increase to the limit, and that should be offered as a stand-alone bill.
(10-04-2021, 04:55 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2021, 04:07 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]What do we think of the debt ceiling standoff?
The President is blaming Republicans of course, and there is some basis for that because this problem is usually fixed with votes from both parties.
I just don't see why Democrats won't go ahead and pass the increase to the debt limit without Republican votes. They get three chances at reconciliation per year, did they already use two? I think they only used one.
In Congress, everybody is a little bit to blame, but the majority party is always more to blame than the minority party.
There are a few problems with this. At some point this needs to stop.
The "basic" problem is borrowing money in order to pay off money owed. That's pretty much the same as not being able to pay your credit card bill, so you raise the credit limit (borrow more money) to pay it.
The second problem is that the democrats don't want to raise the debt ceiling to pay off existing debt, they also want to increase it enough to pay for their "green pipe dream" bill. In my analogy it's like borrowing money not only to pay your credit card bill, but also to buy something else.
When you look at the claimed "$3.5T" green pipe dream bill that democrats want to push though, it's filled with massive pork.
Another problem is that the democrats are claiming that their $3.5T pipe dream bill "won't cost anything" because they want to raise taxes on pretty much everyone. They target the "corporate tax rate" as well as "capital gains" and "estate taxes" in order to "get money from the wealthy". All three of those targets sound good to many people, but they don't realize just how much it would hurt everyone.
It's not a credit card. And I'm just talking about raising the debt limit. The new spending and new taxes are a separate bill, or, if not, they should be separate.
Is it offered as a stand alone bill?
(10-04-2021, 05:02 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]No. No Republican needs to vote for a reckless spending bill. This is a bloated bill made by democrats, and, if they want to pass it, they have the votes to do so. Republicans withholding their votes is their way of saying Democrats need to own this bill. If the Dems can't get their own people on board, that's entirely on them. Why do you struggle with this?
I'm just talking about the debt limit. Republicans should vote for the increase to the limit, and that should be offered as a stand-alone bill.
(10-04-2021, 04:55 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]There are a few problems with this. At some point this needs to stop.
The "basic" problem is borrowing money in order to pay off money owed. That's pretty much the same as not being able to pay your credit card bill, so you raise the credit limit (borrow more money) to pay it.
The second problem is that the democrats don't want to raise the debt ceiling to pay off existing debt, they also want to increase it enough to pay for their "green pipe dream" bill. In my analogy it's like borrowing money not only to pay your credit card bill, but also to buy something else.
When you look at the claimed "$3.5T" green pipe dream bill that democrats want to push though, it's filled with massive pork.
Another problem is that the democrats are claiming that their $3.5T pipe dream bill "won't cost anything" because they want to raise taxes on pretty much everyone. They target the "corporate tax rate" as well as "capital gains" and "estate taxes" in order to "get money from the wealthy". All three of those targets sound good to many people, but they don't realize just how much it would hurt everyone.
It's not a credit card. And I'm just talking about raising the debt limit. The new spending and new taxes are a separate bill, or, if not, they should be separate.
So why should the debt limit be increased?
(10-04-2021, 06:05 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2021, 05:02 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just talking about the debt limit. Republicans should vote for the increase to the limit, and that should be offered as a stand-alone bill.
It's not a credit card. And I'm just talking about raising the debt limit. The new spending and new taxes are a separate bill, or, if not, they should be separate.
So why should the debt limit be increased?
Congress should never have passed one bill saying "spend that money" followed with another bill that says "don't spend that money". There shouldn't be any kind of debt limit at all when the government itself is free to print new money at will. All the debt limit does is gives some disingenuous grandstanders in Congress like Ted Cruz and Barack Obama the chance to look like they care about the debt, when they don't.
That said, the second best option is to raise it as quickly and as quietly as possible.
Who passed the bill saying spend that money?
How about less government? no one I know will shed any tears over that and you can put that hard dollar savings toward the debt.
They should do away with the idiotic concept of a "debt ceiling." All that would be accomplished by not extending the debt ceiling is that we would not pay for things we already bought.
It's as if I decided to cut down on my spending by not paying my credit card bill. The problem is the deficit spending. Not paying for the deficit spending doesn't accomplish anything good, and would wreck the economy.
(10-04-2021, 06:05 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2021, 05:02 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just talking about the debt limit. Republicans should vote for the increase to the limit, and that should be offered as a stand-alone bill.
It's not a credit card. And I'm just talking about raising the debt limit. The new spending and new taxes are a separate bill, or, if not, they should be separate.
So why should the debt limit be increased?
Because if the government refuses to pay its bills, the economy will be wrecked. That would actually increase the deficits by massive amounts, by destroying the credit-worthiness of the United States.
If we don't want to pay for stuff, we shouldn't buy stuff. But when we've already bought it, we'd better pay for it, or we will have some extremely serious problems.
(10-05-2021, 06:09 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]They should do away with the idiotic concept of a "debt ceiling." All that would be accomplished by not extending the debt ceiling is that we would not pay for things we already bought.
It's as if I decided to cut down on my spending by not paying my credit card bill. The problem is the deficit spending. Not paying for the deficit spending doesn't accomplish anything good, and would wreck the economy.
(10-04-2021, 06:05 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]So why should the debt limit be increased?
Because if the government refuses to pay its bills, the economy will be wrecked. That would actually increase the deficits by massive amounts, by destroying the credit-worthiness of the United States.
If we don't want to pay for stuff, we shouldn't buy stuff. But when we've already bought it, we'd better pay for it, or we will have some extremely serious problems.
The problem here is they want to keep spending/buying.
(10-05-2021, 12:35 AM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ]How about less government? no one I know will shed any tears over that, and you can put that hard dollar savings toward the debt.
We need 21Federal Depts. of Security.
(10-05-2021, 10:35 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-05-2021, 06:09 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]They should do away with the idiotic concept of a "debt ceiling." All that would be accomplished by not extending the debt ceiling is that we would not pay for things we already bought.
It's as if I decided to cut down on my spending by not paying my credit card bill. The problem is the deficit spending. Not paying for the deficit spending doesn't accomplish anything good, and would wreck the economy.
Because if the government refuses to pay its bills, the economy will be wrecked. That would actually increase the deficits by massive amounts, by destroying the credit-worthiness of the United States.
If we don't want to pay for stuff, we shouldn't buy stuff. But when we've already bought it, we'd better pay for it, or we will have some extremely serious problems.
The problem here is they want to keep spending/buying.
That is correct.
(10-05-2021, 10:35 AM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-05-2021, 06:09 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]They should do away with the idiotic concept of a "debt ceiling." All that would be accomplished by not extending the debt ceiling is that we would not pay for things we already bought.
It's as if I decided to cut down on my spending by not paying my credit card bill. The problem is the deficit spending. Not paying for the deficit spending doesn't accomplish anything good, and would wreck the economy.
Because if the government refuses to pay its bills, the economy will be wrecked. That would actually increase the deficits by massive amounts, by destroying the credit-worthiness of the United States.
If we don't want to pay for stuff, we shouldn't buy stuff. But when we've already bought it, we'd better pay for it, or we will have some extremely serious problems.
The problem here is they want to keep spending/buying.
The people who don't like the spending should vote no on the spending, and live with the result if the yeses win that vote.
They shouldn't take a separate vote to stop making interest payments. That shouldn't even be possible.
(10-04-2021, 06:55 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-04-2021, 06:05 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]So why should the debt limit be increased?
Congress should never have passed one bill saying "spend that money" followed with another bill that says "don't spend that money". There shouldn't be any kind of debt limit at all when the government itself is free to print new money at will. All the debt limit does is gives some disingenuous grandstanders in Congress like Ted Cruz and Barack Obama the chance to look like they care about the debt, when they don't.
That said, the second best option is to raise it as quickly and as quietly as possible.
Making a second mistake will not fix the first mistake. It only encourages further fiscal irresponsibility.
How about the people who voted for the spending just approve it? This isn't rocket science.
(10-05-2021, 12:09 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]How about the people who voted for the spending just approve it? This isn't rocket science.
In most cases, it was a previous Congress.