(12-28-2021, 07:31 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/20...ison-time/
What a terrible idea- force people into the military who don't want to be there, but are only there to avoid going to prison.
Not a new concept, but less useful in an age where the military requires more brains and less cannon fodder.
I saw this story and thought about posting it. While I have never dealt with people in this predicament during my time in the military, my experience with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds tells me that while there may be an occasional success story, most will be problematic. They’ll see the military strictly as the proverbial ‘get out of jail free’ card and will be unproductive and simply bide their time, or will be getting in trouble again. Most people’s characters are firmly established by this age. If they won’t respect boundaries and authority in civilian life, they won’t in the military. I’ve seen it.
(12-28-2021, 07:31 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/20...ison-time/
What a terrible idea- force people into the military who don't want to be there, but are only there to avoid going to prison.
It is very apparent you have no clue on this matter.
I have seen malcontents and petty criminals turn into model citizens and “lifers” because of that very option. For many of them it was the first time they had ever had any structure in their lives. I’d even go one step farther and have every HS graduate serve a minimum of two years for the same reason.
(12-28-2021, 07:49 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this story and thought about posting it. While I have never dealt with people in this predicament during my time in the military, my experience with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds tells me that while there may be an occasional success story, most will be problematic. They’ll see the military strictly as the proverbial ‘get out of jail free’ card and will be unproductive and simply bide their time, or will be getting in trouble again. Most people’s characters are firmly established by this age. If they won’t respect boundaries and authority in civilian life, they won’t in the military. I’ve seen it.
Where do you think Boatswain mates come from?
(12-28-2021, 08:40 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (12-28-2021, 07:31 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/20...ison-time/
What a terrible idea- force people into the military who don't want to be there, but are only there to avoid going to prison.
It is very apparent you have no clue on this matter.
I have seen malcontents and petty criminals turn into model citizens and “lifers” because of that very option. For many of them it was the first time they had ever had any structure in their lives. I’d even go one step farther and have every HS graduate serve a minimum of two years for the same reason.
(12-28-2021, 07:49 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this story and thought about posting it. While I have never dealt with people in this predicament during my time in the military, my experience with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds tells me that while there may be an occasional success story, most will be problematic. They’ll see the military strictly as the proverbial ‘get out of jail free’ card and will be unproductive and simply bide their time, or will be getting in trouble again. Most people’s characters are firmly established by this age. If they won’t respect boundaries and authority in civilian life, they won’t in the military. I’ve seen it.
Where do you think Boatswain mates come from?
I know working in the aviation ratings that a good part of the slackers came from non-ideal situations in civilian life and simply didn't adapt. Some do, but the ones who needed constant oversight and correction were overwhelmingly people with bad upbringings which instilled apathy towards authority and standards.
Trolling court dockets for potential recruits will introduce more problems than it will solve. Perhaps a stringent vetting process would increase the chances of success, but it's not destined to succeed wildly simply because of the people involved.
Btw, compulsory military service is a bad, bad idea.
(12-28-2021, 09:02 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (12-28-2021, 08:40 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]It is very apparent you have no clue on this matter.
I have seen malcontents and petty criminals turn into model citizens and “lifers” because of that very option. For many of them it was the first time they had ever had any structure in their lives. I’d even go one step farther and have every HS graduate serve a minimum of two years for the same reason.
Where do you think Boatswain mates come from?
I know working in the aviation ratings that a good part of the slackers came from non-ideal situations in civilian life and simply didn't adapt. Some do, but the ones who needed constant oversight and correction were overwhelmingly people with bad upbringings which instilled apathy towards authority and standards.
Trolling court dockets for potential recruits will introduce more problems than it will solve. Perhaps a stringent vetting process would increase the chances of success, but it's not destined to succeed wildly simply because of the people involved.
Btw, compulsory military service is a bad, bad idea.
After a shower and another cup of coffee I’ve reconsidered and you and Marty are probably right considering today’s military climate. I will however add that in my personal experience the navy I enlisted in was well suited to ween out those that were worth saving and those who were a lost cause. Many of the bad ones did not make it out of bootcamp. I would venture to guess about half of those that did went on to live productive lives. I have a friend that was given some advice by a judge to join the military because if he showed back up in his courtroom again he (the judge) would throw the book at him. My friend retired in 1999 as a Sr Chief and is currently a semi-retired independent trucker. Who is to say where he and many like him would be were they not given that opportunity?
If they can't handle the discipline required to not be a low life piece of [BLEEP] criminal - there's no way they can hack it in the Military.
so what happens if they apply to get into a branch of the military and they dont get accepted? The military is not an equal opportunity employer. Or what if they get in and get themselves kicked out? But I guess there is another side to this. What if the majority of these people actually get their lives straightened out and do well? Not saying it would happen, but what ratio of success vs failure would be it take to be deemed as a success? Some may say Oh wow 4 years of a guaranteed job with free medical, dental, vision for me and my family. Not to mention free housing on base housing if you have a family, or getting a subsidy that help you pay for rent and food from the military if you dont live in base housing, or are waiting to get into base housing. There is so much more the military has to offer military persons and their families that cost nothing, and the very real chance of their spouse getting a job on base and free child care. It would be a great place for a new start for low income/low educated people to grow and prosper if they wanted to. If they didnt, [BLEEP] it, send 'em back to jail.
We don't have a military for the purpose of doing social work.
(12-28-2021, 12:29 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]so what happens if they apply to get into a branch of the military and they dont get accepted? The military is not an equal opportunity employer. Or what if they get in and get themselves kicked out? But I guess there is another side to this. What if the majority of these people actually get their lives straightened out and do well? Not saying it would happen, but what ratio of success vs failure would be it take to be deemed as a success? Some may say Oh wow 4 years of a guaranteed job with free medical, dental, vision for me and my family. Not to mention free housing on base housing if you have a family, or getting a subsidy that help you pay for rent and food from the military if you dont live in base housing, or are waiting to get into base housing. There is so much more the military has to offer military persons and their families that cost nothing, and the very real chance of their spouse getting a job on base and free child care. It would be a great place for a new start for low income/low educated people to grow and prosper if they wanted to. If they didnt, [BLEEP] it, send 'em back to jail.
Except you’re not taking into account the drain on resources to process these people through the system and then push them out the door if they fail. Chains of command have better things to do than to make sure someone stays on the straight and narrow. If a command loses a body, that billet is not filled until the next rotation.
As Marty says, the military is not a social program. You can’t expect them to do their job and to be social workers.
Also, what is this free childcare you speak of?
(12-28-2021, 12:42 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (12-28-2021, 12:29 PM)wrong_box Wrote: [ -> ]so what happens if they apply to get into a branch of the military and they dont get accepted? The military is not an equal opportunity employer. Or what if they get in and get themselves kicked out? But I guess there is another side to this. What if the majority of these people actually get their lives straightened out and do well? Not saying it would happen, but what ratio of success vs failure would be it take to be deemed as a success? Some may say Oh wow 4 years of a guaranteed job with free medical, dental, vision for me and my family. Not to mention free housing on base housing if you have a family, or getting a subsidy that help you pay for rent and food from the military if you dont live in base housing, or are waiting to get into base housing. There is so much more the military has to offer military persons and their families that cost nothing, and the very real chance of their spouse getting a job on base and free child care. It would be a great place for a new start for low income/low educated people to grow and prosper if they wanted to. If they didnt, [BLEEP] it, send 'em back to jail.
Except you’re not taking into account the drain on resources to process these people through the system and then push them out the door if they fail. Chains of command have better things to do than to make sure someone stays on the straight and narrow. If a command loses a body, that billet is not filled until the next rotation.
As Marty says, the military is not a social program. You can’t expect them to do their job and to be social workers.
Also, what is this free childcare you speak of?
It wouldnt be any different on the chain of command for these people than a normal recruit. Lets not assume that such a large number of people would be in this program that it would disrupt the normal recruiting processes or overtaking traditional recruiting. Many traditional recruits get into bootcamp and decide they dont like the military and try to find a way to get out. Many find themselves in trouble after boot camp because they dont like it. Many more go on and at least fill their initial enlistment. When I was in there was an on base child care which if memory serves me correct was run by the Navy Relief Society. There was also an auto shop you could take your car to if you did your own repairs, a car wash complete with buffers for your own detail work (only on your own vehicle no doing any work for others) a little building that you could go to for carpet cleaners/buffers and most anything you needed to use around the house including a lawn mower all at no cost to the military member and his family on every base I was ever on. Oh also a movie theater and bowling alley and a swimming pool. Im a little fuzzy about the swimming pool but I seem to recall it.
True story, my Dad was given a choice when he was 17, enlist in the army and go to Vietnam or go to prison for 3 years. He did 2 tours and 30 years in the Army.
This reminds me of the immigration issue. You take away the hardship, and the policy fails.
(12-28-2021, 08:40 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (12-28-2021, 07:31 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/20...ison-time/
What a terrible idea- force people into the military who don't want to be there, but are only there to avoid going to prison.
It is very apparent you have no clue on this matter.
I have seen malcontents and petty criminals turn into model citizens and “lifers” because of that very option. For many of them it was the first time they had ever had any structure in their lives. I’d even go one step farther and have every HS graduate serve a minimum of two years for the same reason.
(12-28-2021, 07:49 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I saw this story and thought about posting it. While I have never dealt with people in this predicament during my time in the military, my experience with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds tells me that while there may be an occasional success story, most will be problematic. They’ll see the military strictly as the proverbial ‘get out of jail free’ card and will be unproductive and simply bide their time, or will be getting in trouble again. Most people’s characters are firmly established by this age. If they won’t respect boundaries and authority in civilian life, they won’t in the military. I’ve seen it.
Where do you think Boatswain mates come from?
Maybe 20 years ago the military would make em right through structure and strong culture. But as it is today, withthe whole come and stay as you are, or even better just change genders, they would likely not be corrected and just end up chaptered out.
(12-29-2021, 12:03 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]This reminds me of the immigration issue. You take away the hardship, and the policy fails.
I don't follow. What do you mean?
(12-29-2021, 09:42 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (12-29-2021, 12:03 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]This reminds me of the immigration issue. You take away the hardship, and the policy fails.
I don't follow. What do you mean?
Two things come to mind.
The military is nothing like it was 10-20 years ago when those of us here served. It's way too soft. Sure, there is still a measure of discipline but nothing compared to how it was.
If the people given this choice choose the military option and get chaptered out early because they couldn't/wouldn't adjust then they're not really being punished for their crime. The only way they do is if there is a clause that says if they are discharged under other than honorable conditions they
will serve time in jail. Like, they go straight from their duty station to jail. Period.
Unchecked immigration was fine in America when we didn't have welfare. People risked everything to come here and had to fight to be accepted and become successful. It made America the great melting pot. It brought citizens willing to risk everything because they bet on themselves. I think the same is true with military or jail. People are forced to bet on themselves, but that doesn't work if there isn't a hardship associated with it. They don't actually overcome anything.
(12-29-2021, 10:31 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Unchecked immigration was fine in America when we didn't have welfare. People risked everything to come here and had to fight to be accepted and become successful. It made America the great melting pot. It brought citizens willing to risk everything because they bet on themselves. I think the same is true with military or jail. People are forced to bet on themselves, but that doesn't work if there isn't a hardship associated with it. They don't actually overcome anything.
I agree with some of what you're saying, but we decided that unchecked immigration was bad about a decade before we ever set up any kind of poverty relief program at the federal level. So the true history is more complicated than the story you tell.
Fortunately open borders and service as punishment are both in the dustbin of history.
Well, that's true. They stopped it because some groups weren't assimilating. They opened and closed it to various parts of the world at different times. When those people assimilated, they opened it back up. That's irrelevant to my other point, though.