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To me it’s not even close I’d take Desantis all day over Trump, these two are gonna end up going at it during a primary.

If it's just Trump vs. DeSantis, DeSantis has a good chance, but if there are more candidates, DeSantis will lose.
Unless
The GOP changes their winner-take-all primaries to be proportional like the NH and IA primary,
Or unless
Trump is running from a jail cell.

(01-18-2022, 02:20 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]To me it’s not even close I’d take Desantis all day over Trump, these two are gonna end up going at it during a primary.

DeSantis said previously that he had no interest in running in 2024 and it would be a good idea if he didn’t for two reasons. 

The first is his wife’s health problems. I’ve heard nothing of how serious her cancer is, but why add the stress of a presidential campaign to it.

The second is time is on his side. Why run under the shadow of Trump when he can wait until 2028 when Trump will be irrelevant?

I don’t think we’ll see DeSantis throw his hat in the ring this time around.

(01-18-2022, 03:54 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 02:20 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]To me it’s not even close I’d take Desantis all day over Trump, these two are gonna end up going at it during a primary.

DeSantis said previously that he had no interest in running in 2024 and it would be a good idea if he didn’t for two reasons. 

The first is his wife’s health problems. I’ve heard nothing of how serious her cancer is, but why add the stress of a presidential campaign to it.

The second is time is on his side. Why run under the shadow of Trump when he can wait until 2028 when Trump will be irrelevant?

I don’t think we’ll see DeSantis throw his hat in the ring this time around.

Given his stance against Biden during this whole pandemic I actually think he could be a dark horse candidate to run. If he does run he has my vote already.

Any conservative who is not far right would take DeSantis over Trump unless they've been living under a rock the past couple of years.

Haha .... liberals got their marching orders to play up and create a rift between the 2. No one has a shot but Trump in 2024 if the fraud has been fixed. The left is trying anything they can to keep Trump from running.


FL needs Desantis to finish destroying all the liberals in Tallahassee and Miami. Then he can run as the front runner in 2028.

I think he will run. I also think it will help him to be at odds with trump when he does.

(01-18-2022, 05:16 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Any conservative who is not far right would take DeSantis over Trump unless they've been living under a rock the past couple of years.

I consider myself pretty far right and I can’t stand trump. Sure I picked him over Hillary and Biden but he was my last choice in any primary. 

To me Trump is Bill Clinton with an R in front of his name. His strong economy was built on government spending and everyone overlooked his lack of morality because it padded their pocket books.

I’m reading this: will it be Desantis or Trump that replaces Joe?

Nice debate topic. Good question and all. But a bit early for me to make a call. I see pros to Trump and cons. Desantis should be the Trump without the mouth. Except He will say it but in a politically correct way for our softer audience. Either would be light years ahead of what we have now.

(01-18-2022, 08:14 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 05:16 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Any conservative who is not far right would take DeSantis over Trump unless they've been living under a rock the past couple of years.

I consider myself pretty far right and I can’t stand trump. Sure I picked him over Hillary and Biden but he was my last choice in any primary. 

To me Trump is Bill Clinton with an R in front of his name. His strong economy was built on government spending and everyone overlooked his lack of morality because it padded their pocket books.

I guess by far right I'm saying far right. The Trump Munchers. Or maybe the Trump Munchers are a party unto themselves much like the progressives who are not really democrats.

(01-18-2022, 08:30 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 08:14 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]I consider myself pretty far right and I can’t stand trump. Sure I picked him over Hillary and Biden but he was my last choice in any primary. 

To me Trump is Bill Clinton with an R in front of his name. His strong economy was built on government spending and everyone overlooked his lack of morality because it padded their pocket books.

I guess by far right I'm saying far right. The Trump Munchers. Or maybe the Trump Munchers are a party unto themselves much like the progressives who are not really democrats.

That’s the way I see it, Trump never represented the right very well. I argued with my Dad who until recently was a very strong Trump supporter there is a philosophical fault with Trump. Unlike conservatives he does not believe government is the problem, he simply believes the wrong people where in charge of it. Trump entire political ideology is based upon if the right people are in charge government can be efficient and solve most problems.

Desantis would end hik in an open primary. Trumps ego prevents him from making timely political calculations and he is solely responsible for giving us Fauciism.

(01-18-2022, 09:13 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 08:30 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]I guess by far right I'm saying far right. The Trump Munchers. Or maybe the Trump Munchers are a party unto themselves much like the progressives who are not really democrats.

That’s the way I see it, Trump never represented the right very well. I argued with my Dad who until recently was a very strong Trump supporter there is a philosophical fault with Trump. Unlike conservatives he does not believe government is the problem, he simply believes the wrong people where in charge of it. Trump entire political ideology is based upon if the right people are in charge government can be efficient and solve most problems.

Conservatives might say that a government run by liberals is a problem, but they wouldn't say government in general is the problem.  I know Reagan said that, more or less, but it's a stupid thing to say.  No government, no society.  All societies have governments.  They all have people who rule and processes for selecting new people and making new rules.  Even a very small government helps people in small ways.

A smart political ideology says, government is only a problem if it has bad laws or bad policies.  Conservatives want laws and policies that uphold tradition, liberals want laws and policies that change rapidly, usually in a quest for some utopia.  But the smart ones in both camps are playing in that arena, law and policy.

A naive political ideology says, we just need the right people in charge.  This is where you say Trump was before he ran for President.  And maybe that was true.  It's naive because people die and retire and no one will ever have that much control over who replaces them.  The best people will quickly give way to the worst, unless someone has cemented laws and policies that plan for the worst and minimize the damage they can do.

The worst are the ones with no ideology at all except their own appetite for power and glory.  This is the man Trump proved to be as President. It's why he never found the "right people" to be his VP, his Atty General, even his press secretary.  Not that he picked bad people, but he didn't evaluate them on any criteria other than loyalty to him personally. He could have picked people based on them having a common vision of policy, but he didn't. He could have picked experts and left them alone, but he didn't.  He picked snivellers and constantly brought them to account publicly over whether they were snivelling enough. It's also why he insisted the election would be fraudulent before it even happened.

Not that Biden does much better. The Democratic Party's presidents, since Clinton, have used the Cabinet variously to store rivals and throw bones to minority demographics in their coalition. They don't look at common vision or expertise much either. But at least they let their people try to do their jobs without constant interference from Twitter.

(01-18-2022, 10:11 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 09:13 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]That’s the way I see it, Trump never represented the right very well. I argued with my Dad who until recently was a very strong Trump supporter there is a philosophical fault with Trump. Unlike conservatives he does not believe government is the problem, he simply believes the wrong people where in charge of it. Trump entire political ideology is based upon if the right people are in charge government can be efficient and solve most problems.

Conservatives might say that a government run by liberals is a problem, but they wouldn't say government in general is the problem.  I know Reagan said that, more or less, but it's a stupid thing to say.  No government, no society.  All societies have governments.  They all have people who rule and processes for selecting new people and making new rules.  Even a very small government helps people in small ways.

A smart political ideology says, government is only a problem if it has bad laws or bad policies.  Conservatives want laws and policies that uphold tradition, liberals want laws and policies that change rapidly, usually in a quest for some utopia.  But the smart ones in both camps are playing in that arena, law and policy.

A naive political ideology says, we just need the right people in charge.  This is where you say Trump was before he ran for President.  And maybe that was true.  It's naive because people die and retire and no one will ever have that much control over who replaces them.  The best people will quickly give way to the worst, unless someone has cemented laws and policies that plan for the worst and minimize the damage they can do.

The worst are the ones with no ideology at all except their own appetite for power and glory.  This is the man Trump proved to be as President. It's why he never found the "right people" to be his VP, his Atty General, even his press secretary.  Not that he picked bad people, but he didn't evaluate them on any criteria other than loyalty to him personally. He could have picked people based on them having a common vision of policy, but he didn't. He could have picked experts and left them alone, but he didn't.  He picked snivellers and constantly brought them to account publicly over whether they were snivelling enough. It's also why he insisted the election would be fraudulent before it even happened.

Not that Biden does much better.  The Democratic Party's presidents, since Clinton, have used the Cabinet variously to store rivals and throw bones to minority demographics in their coalition. They don't look at common vision or expertise much either. But at least they let their people try to do their jobs without constant interference from Twitter.

That is so true.  Especially the bolded part.  Trump's "ideology" is narcissism.  He loves people who praise him.  That's how you get on his good side, or get a job in his administration.  That's why most of his adherents aren't really Republicans.  They're better labeled as Trumpists.  Whatever Trump says is what they believe.  Whatever is good for Trump is what they want.  If Trump loses, it's because someone cheated.

(01-19-2022, 06:46 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-18-2022, 10:11 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Conservatives might say that a government run by liberals is a problem, but they wouldn't say government in general is the problem.  I know Reagan said that, more or less, but it's a stupid thing to say.  No government, no society.  All societies have governments.  They all have people who rule and processes for selecting new people and making new rules.  Even a very small government helps people in small ways.

A smart political ideology says, government is only a problem if it has bad laws or bad policies.  Conservatives want laws and policies that uphold tradition, liberals want laws and policies that change rapidly, usually in a quest for some utopia.  But the smart ones in both camps are playing in that arena, law and policy.

A naive political ideology says, we just need the right people in charge.  This is where you say Trump was before he ran for President.  And maybe that was true.  It's naive because people die and retire and no one will ever have that much control over who replaces them.  The best people will quickly give way to the worst, unless someone has cemented laws and policies that plan for the worst and minimize the damage they can do.

The worst are the ones with no ideology at all except their own appetite for power and glory.  This is the man Trump proved to be as President. It's why he never found the "right people" to be his VP, his Atty General, even his press secretary.  Not that he picked bad people, but he didn't evaluate them on any criteria other than loyalty to him personally. He could have picked people based on them having a common vision of policy, but he didn't. He could have picked experts and left them alone, but he didn't.  He picked snivellers and constantly brought them to account publicly over whether they were snivelling enough. It's also why he insisted the election would be fraudulent before it even happened.

Not that Biden does much better.  The Democratic Party's presidents, since Clinton, have used the Cabinet variously to store rivals and throw bones to minority demographics in their coalition. They don't look at common vision or expertise much either. But at least they let their people try to do their jobs without constant interference from Twitter.

That is so true.  Especially the bolded part.  Trump's "ideology" is narcissism.  He loves people who praise him.  That's how you get on his good side, or get a job in his administration.  That's why most of his adherents aren't really Republicans.  They're better labeled as Trumpists.  Whatever Trump says is what they believe.  Whatever is good for Trump is what they want.  If Trump loses, it's because someone cheated.

Most politicians are narcissist. Unlike Trump, they have had years of political grooming to hide it for the most part.

Just look at Biden. How many times has he claimed to have had experiences that were exaggerated on down right untrue. How many times has he lied about or try to distort political stances he has taken in the past thinking people are to dumb to remember?

Politics is power and narcissists are drawn to that by their nature..

That's what made Trump a better leader than most of our politicians. Obviously, the dude was flawed. He was a huge narcissist. However, he wanted to be loved by the people, which is a giant step up from what we currently have. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of the establishment who were relentless in attacking him, almost every facet of our lives was better under Trump. I will admit that it could have easily gone sideways with Trump, but he was constantly checked by his administration, which made for the best outcome for us. I care about that way more than the perceived threat that was overexaggerated by the media for their own benefit. Look at how he was growing in popularity in lower class and minority communities. I believe with one more year, Trump would have dominated the Black and Hispanic vote.

You guys love to talk about Trump's narcissism while ignoring literally EVERYONE else in the establishment with the exact same characteristic. Their narcissism is sanctioned, and Trump's isn't. I'd take Trump over this ALL day. You know the worst part about listening to guys like Mike and Marty wax on about Trump to me? We could control Trump. We did control Trump. How do we control the establishment? We vote, right? Lol.

(01-19-2022, 08:24 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]That's what made Trump a better leader than most of our politicians. Obviously, the dude was flawed. He was a huge narcissist. However, he wanted to be loved by the people, which is a giant step up from what we currently have. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of the establishment who were relentless in attacking him, almost every facet of our lives was better under Trump. I will admit that it could have easily gone sideways with Trump, but he was constantly checked by his administration, which made for the best outcome for us. I care about that way more than the perceived threat that was overexaggerated by the media for their own benefit. Look at how he was growing in popularity in lower class and minority communities. I believe with one more year, Trump would have dominated the Black and Hispanic vote.

You guys love to talk about Trump's narcissism while ignoring literally EVERYONE else in the establishment with the exact same characteristic. Their narcissism is sanctioned, and Trump's isn't. I'd take Trump over this ALL day. You know the worst part about listening to guys like Mike and Marty wax on about Trump to me? We could control Trump. We did control Trump. How do we control the establishment? We vote, right? Lol.

They're conflating Trump's character flaws with his political aspirations. It's easy to do with all the noise that surrounded him. Does anyone honestly believe Biden has the stones to attempt something like the Solemani take down, holding NATO accountable for their financial obligations, making the U.S. energy independent or actually address the sieve which is our southern border? Biden is regarded as a pushover by the world, and they're right. 

The system hated Trump because he was an outsider who took the grand prize without spending decades wallowing in the political mud or being anointed by the leftist media. For me, his most important legacy is solidifying the truth about media nepotism and revealing big tech for the leftist tool it is. He triggered the system (government, media, education...) into clearly defining its ideological hypocrisy, inequities, outright intolerance for differing views and overt efforts to silence them. The enemy of autonomy is no longer hidden behind political and bureaucratic curtains.

(01-19-2022, 08:24 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]That's what made Trump a better leader than most of our politicians. Obviously, the dude was flawed. He was a huge narcissist. However, he wanted to be loved by the people, which is a giant step up from what we currently have. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of the establishment who were relentless in attacking him, almost every facet of our lives was better under Trump. I will admit that it could have easily gone sideways with Trump, but he was constantly checked by his administration, which made for the best outcome for us. I care about that way more than the perceived threat that was overexaggerated by the media for their own benefit. Look at how he was growing in popularity in lower class and minority communities. I believe with one more year, Trump would have dominated the Black and Hispanic vote.

You guys love to talk about Trump's narcissism while ignoring literally EVERYONE else in the establishment with the exact same characteristic. Their narcissism is sanctioned, and Trump's isn't. I'd take Trump over this ALL day. You know the worst part about listening to guys like Mike and Marty wax on about Trump to me? We could control Trump. We did control Trump. How do we control the establishment? We vote, right? Lol.

The trouble with Trump's narcissism is that it went to the point of not being able to accept the fact that he lost the election.  He's so ashamed he lost the election that he's willing to tear the country apart over it.   That's one of the worst things a President can do- to tell his supporters that their vote doesn't count and that the election was stolen.   Ronald Reagan stood for things, but he never accused the other side of being evil.  What are Trump's supporters supposed to do when they are convinced that the Presidency has been stolen by evil people?

(01-19-2022, 09:05 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-19-2022, 08:24 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]That's what made Trump a better leader than most of our politicians. Obviously, the dude was flawed. He was a huge narcissist. However, he wanted to be loved by the people, which is a giant step up from what we currently have. The proof is in the pudding. Outside of the establishment who were relentless in attacking him, almost every facet of our lives was better under Trump. I will admit that it could have easily gone sideways with Trump, but he was constantly checked by his administration, which made for the best outcome for us. I care about that way more than the perceived threat that was overexaggerated by the media for their own benefit. Look at how he was growing in popularity in lower class and minority communities. I believe with one more year, Trump would have dominated the Black and Hispanic vote.

You guys love to talk about Trump's narcissism while ignoring literally EVERYONE else in the establishment with the exact same characteristic. Their narcissism is sanctioned, and Trump's isn't. I'd take Trump over this ALL day. You know the worst part about listening to guys like Mike and Marty wax on about Trump to me? We could control Trump. We did control Trump. How do we control the establishment? We vote, right? Lol.

The trouble with Trump's narcissism is that it went to the point of not being able to accept the fact that he lost the election.  He's so ashamed he lost the election that he's willing to tear the country apart over it.   That's one of the worst things a President can do- to tell his supporters that their vote doesn't count and that the election was stolen.   Ronald Reagan stood for things, but he never accused the other side of being evil.  What are Trump's supporters supposed to do when they are convinced that the Presidency has been stolen by evil people?

Well, they are evil in that they conspired against him at every turn. He was never given credit for anything. Serious question: Can you name one thing the media or his political opponents ever applauded him for or at least expressed some agreement? 

I think he was also stunned that the politicians and media he had been so successful in marginalizing for the previous 3 years were able to engineer his defeat. Regardless of how hard the media tried, they couldn't get his poll numbers down into the 30s (Biden is there now WITH the support of the media). But George Floyd and COVID came along in a perfect storm to be leveraged against him. He couldn't accept it and he just spiraled down from there. 

I'm not making excuses for Trump's behavior and character flaws but given the amount of resistance he faced at every turn (yes, he created some of it) it's not difficult to understand his frustration.

Remember in 1998, how stupid Hillary sounded to you when she claimed there was a "vast right wing conspiracy"? That's how some of you sound now.

As for Trump, COVID was a no win situation. So were the Floyd protests. He was going to take a major hit to his popularity no matter how he responded to either situation. That's just how below average intelligence people react to things. Blame the President for something that's not his fault and that he can't fix. That's not fair, that's frustrating, but you don't have to be angry and frustrated for him.

Regardless, though, we are above average intelligence people here, and I think we can agree that even though the actual reason Trump lost was silly, it's a Good Thing that Trump lost because sooner or later he was going to totally corrode our entire system of checks and balances and voting. As he showed on January 6th, undeniably.