(04-24-2022, 05:21 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Let me put it another way. If we allowed Christianity to be taught in schools, you would be perfectly within your linguistic rights to say Christian teachers were grooming atheist children to become Christians, especially if the Christian teachers were actively proselytizing to the students. A better word is conditioning, but grooming works.
Now, let's say they were secretly converting children and telling them they didn't need to tell their parents, because they are children of God. Now, let's say that the people started to complain about this, and their representatives took notices and said, look, we are going to pass a bill that says we don't really think religion should be discussed in school before third grade. After third grade, you can have discussions about faith when appropriate, but we still don't want you trying to convert children and believe that's something that something that should be dealt with at the family level. Then Christians called it the Don't Say God act and tried to make the governor out to be a religious bigot.
This is more or less exactly what has transpired, and, unless you try to jump through hoops to reframe that analogy, you should be able to see why this whole thing progressive rhetoric.
Your metaphor is actually spot on, but, there is no evidence that anything analogous to proselytizing for queerness was taking place in public schools.
The legislative effort began because legislators were upset about how a case in a Leon County middle school was handled. You should read up on the case. The school didn't have good guidelines or procedures in place, mistakes were made. The parents knew their kid was having queer feelings, they were open to having a trans child, they were OK with the math teacher knowing, but they wanted to be in the loop on every step. On telling more teachers. On changing nicknames or pronouns. On changing bathrooms. The school didn't realize how fully the parents wanted to be in the loop. Again, inadequate guidelines and procedures.
The facts are all out there. No one is alleging that the student was being recruited or proselytized into a trans identity. And this was the most egregious case the legislature knew of.
The new law is pretty narrowly tailored to what actually happened, and I agree with you that the left has vastly overreacted to it. But it also has nothing to do with pedophiles or groomers. DeSantis is pushing his advantage by forcing the other side to react. The Republicans love pissing off the libs and calling them all pedophiles certainly does it. But he doesn't need to do this. Disney might still be donating to Republicans if DeSantis had just handled this more gingerly. They could have passed the same law and pissed off fewer people.
Thinking logically, if the only evidence you had was the protest, that should be sufficient to make you question their motives. But we have more than that. We have an abundance of evidence of this happening around the country, so it doesn't take many examples of it here in Florida for parents to want to react to it. People became aware of this kind of activity thanks to remote learning and social media, but guys like you and Marty keep believing it's an isolated incident. If this was only a few isolated incidents, and this type of bill was sufficient to curtail that, it would have passed and been done with, without out massive outrage. HOWEVER, there is a protest because the people who are making the biggest noise DO want to proselytize your kids into this way of thinking. Read the literature. Oh, that's right... you haven't.
With the newfound requirement of LGBTQ+ and diversity studies in college, more and more kids are being indoctrinated into the critical theories, and this is another one of those things. They must have a praxis element, or they aren't true believers. In education, this is called critical pedagogy. And, while a majority of people don't buy into critical theory, the ones that do are ACTIVELY trying to recruit your kids to their cause and lifestyle. They are creating allies. You would know this if you bothered to read these essays instead of thinking college is like it was back when you went. It's not. The fact that the progressive left is getting so bent out of shape over this bill should get you thinking. Keep in mind, that just because you don't think like that doesn't mean that the people who are making the loudest noise are thinking like you. They are the believers, man. You are just naive.
"This bad thing that we weren't doing in school wasn't illegal before, but now that it is illegal we're mad that you made a law to stop us from doing it."
Sound totes legit.
The protests about the law are almost entirely over hurt feelings, misunderstandings, and mistrust. It's psychological, not legal. The governor knows this, and he likes it
Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
(04-25-2022, 01:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
It’s cuz he’s such a strong Republican you know…
(04-25-2022, 01:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
I know the governor is smart enough to have read and understood the bill. He graduated [BLEEP] Laude from Harvard Law. When he says the bill is about defending kids from groomers, and that anyone who opposes it is a groomer, he is lying and he knows better.
The left is lying about the bill too, but their lies seem to be ignorant lies, not intentional ones. The governor is playing into this ignorance, rather than correcting it.
The necessity of the bill aside, it is being used more as a tool to piss off the libs.
(04-25-2022, 07:05 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 01:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
I know the governor is smart enough to have read and understood the bill. He graduated [BLEEP] Laude from Harvard Law.
The left is lying about the bill too, but their lies seem to be ignorant lies, not intentional ones. The governor is playing into this ignorance, rather than correcting it.
For the love of God, please stop.
(04-25-2022, 07:05 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 01:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
I know the governor is smart enough to have read and understood the bill. He graduated [BLEEP] Laude from Harvard Law. When he says the bill is about defending kids from groomers, and that anyone who opposes it is a groomer, he is lying and he knows better.
The left is lying about the bill too, but their lies seem to be ignorant lies, not intentional ones. The governor is playing into this ignorance, rather than correcting it.
The necessity of the bill aside, it is being used more as a tool to piss off the libs.
You're hilarious. They have essay upon essay about their intentions if you would just read. They are intentionally teaching critical gender studies to their children with the floor being allies and the ceiling being activists who embrace their lifestyle. Again, this is not every gay and lesbian teacher, but it is the goal for teachers who subscribe to critical pedagogy, which is taught at many universities. Even if it's a small amount NOW, it will only get worse if people don't move against it. This bill aims to stop that, and the progressive elites (who share that goal) are making waves because it hurts their religion, but you don't seem to advocate for shutting it down now. Why?
You are the one that is peddling ignorant lies, not DeSantis. You can admit that grooming is an adequate word when applied to a different scenario. You can admit there are many different incidents of this occurring in schools around the country. You can admit that the left is lying about the details of the bill. You can admit that teachers shouldn't be teaching sexual activism to kids under third grade. You just can't seem to put it all together, because you're blinded by the narrative you consume.
People who are putting their energy behind opposing this bill ARE groomers. Their end goal is to prepare the next generation for a new lifestyle, or at the very least support it. I hate to break it to you, but if you support those people, you are supporting groomers. That's not a lie.
(04-25-2022, 01:32 AM)Bchbunnie4 Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 01:11 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Really? You know what the governor thinks. This has nothing to do with the people who are LYING about what the bill does and its effect on the community. It's always just one-sided, eh?
It’s cuz he’s such a strong Republican you know…
He didn't leave the Party, the Party left him.
(04-25-2022, 07:09 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 07:05 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I know the governor is smart enough to have read and understood the bill. He graduated [BLEEP] Laude from Harvard Law.
The left is lying about the bill too, but their lies seem to be ignorant lies, not intentional ones. The governor is playing into this ignorance, rather than correcting it.
For the love of God, please stop.
Actually, you're right.
While DeSantis probably is the smartest legal mind in he room, there are plenty of folks on the left who also know better and see some advantage in lying about the bill.
What that advantage is, I don't know. Might be as simple as avoiding arguments with your allies, who knows. Do you know?
(04-25-2022, 08:22 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 07:05 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I know the governor is smart enough to have read and understood the bill. He graduated [BLEEP] Laude from Harvard Law. When he says the bill is about defending kids from groomers, and that anyone who opposes it is a groomer, he is lying and he knows better.
The left is lying about the bill too, but their lies seem to be ignorant lies, not intentional ones. The governor is playing into this ignorance, rather than correcting it.
The necessity of the bill aside, it is being used more as a tool to piss off the libs.
...
You are the one that is peddling ignorant lies, not DeSantis. You can admit that grooming is an adequate word when applied to a different scenario. You can admit there are many different incidents of this occurring in schools around the country. You can admit that the left is lying about the details of the bill. You can admit that teachers shouldn't be teaching sexual activism to kids under third grade. You just can't seem to put it all together, because you're blinded by the narrative you consume.
...
No, I did not admit that.
(04-24-2022, 05:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-24-2022, 05:21 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]Let me put it another way. If we allowed Christianity to be taught in schools, you would be perfectly within your linguistic rights to say Christian teachers were grooming atheist children to become Christians, especially if the Christian teachers were actively proselytizing to the students. A better word is conditioning, but grooming works.
Now, let's say they were secretly converting children and telling them they didn't need to tell their parents, because they are children of God. Now, let's say that the people started to complain about this, and their representatives took notices and said, look, we are going to pass a bill that says we don't really think religion should be discussed in school before third grade. After third grade, you can have discussions about faith when appropriate, but we still don't want you trying to convert children and believe that's something that something that should be dealt with at the family level. Then Christians called it the Don't Say God act and tried to make the governor out to be a religious bigot.
This is more or less exactly what has transpired, and, unless you try to jump through hoops to reframe that analogy, you should be able to see why this whole thing progressive rhetoric.
Your metaphor is actually spot on, but, there is no evidence that anything analogous to proselytizing for queerness was taking place in public schools.
The legislative effort began because legislators were upset about how a case in a Leon County middle school was handled. You should read up on the case. The school didn't have good guidelines or procedures in place, mistakes were made. The parents knew their kid was having queer feelings, they were open to having a trans child, they were OK with the math teacher knowing, but they wanted to be in the loop on every step. On telling more teachers. On changing nicknames or pronouns. On changing bathrooms. The school didn't realize how fully the parents wanted to be in the loop. Again, inadequate guidelines and procedures.
The facts are all out there. No one is alleging that the student was being recruited or proselytized into a trans identity. And this was the most egregious case the legislature knew of.
The new law is pretty narrowly tailored to what actually happened, and I agree with you that the left has vastly overreacted to it. But it also has nothing to do with pedophiles or groomers. DeSantis is pushing his advantage by forcing the other side to react. The Republicans love pissing off the libs and calling them all pedophiles certainly does it. But he doesn't need to do this. Disney might still be donating to Republicans if DeSantis had just handled this more gingerly. They could have passed the same law and pissed off fewer people.
As usual you are wrong again. I know that Tucker Carlson probably triggers you, but this was a pretty good piece that he did that explains how the bill started.
What qualifies to you for this?
(04-25-2022, 09:41 AM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (04-24-2022, 05:45 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Your metaphor is actually spot on, but, there is no evidence that anything analogous to proselytizing for queerness was taking place in public schools.
The legislative effort began because legislators were upset about how a case in a Leon County middle school was handled. You should read up on the case. The school didn't have good guidelines or procedures in place, mistakes were made. The parents knew their kid was having queer feelings, they were open to having a trans child, they were OK with the math teacher knowing, but they wanted to be in the loop on every step. On telling more teachers. On changing nicknames or pronouns. On changing bathrooms. The school didn't realize how fully the parents wanted to be in the loop. Again, inadequate guidelines and procedures.
The facts are all out there. No one is alleging that the student was being recruited or proselytized into a trans identity. And this was the most egregious case the legislature knew of.
The new law is pretty narrowly tailored to what actually happened, and I agree with you that the left has vastly overreacted to it. But it also has nothing to do with pedophiles or groomers. DeSantis is pushing his advantage by forcing the other side to react. The Republicans love pissing off the libs and calling them all pedophiles certainly does it. But he doesn't need to do this. Disney might still be donating to Republicans if DeSantis had just handled this more gingerly. They could have passed the same law and pissed off fewer people.
As usual you are wrong again. I know that Tucker Carlson probably triggers you, but this was a pretty good piece that he did that explains how the bill started.
I know what being triggered feels like.
Tucker doesn't trigger me.
I will not listen to Tucker simply because, like his predecessors Hannity and OReilly, his show is opinion and entertainment only. Any facts presented are purely coincidental. And yes, I avoid watching CNN and MSNBC primetime shows for the same reason.
(04-25-2022, 09:41 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]What qualifies to you for this?
What would qualify is if there ever was a student expressing general emotional distress/concerns in school, and the school employee suggested, "maybe you're gay" or "maybe you're trans" without the student suggesting it first.
Another thing that would qualify is instruction on the Kinsey spectrum before college.
Another thing that would qualify is instruction that includes universalizing statements about sexuality or gender identity. For instance, not to discuss religion, but I think we can agree that Christian proselytizing usually starts with two universalizing statements, "we were all created by God" and "we are all sinners.". Making universalizing statements that "everyone has a sexuality" and "everyone has a gender identity" asks students to contemplate things they don't need to contemplate in the course of their studies. Unless they ask, of course, one on one. Saying it in a mandatory assembly for instance, that should be off limits. Perhaps this was going on in Florida, but I doubt it. I hadn't heard anything about it.
This is about 6 year old children, they won't suggest it but they are eminently suggestable to it. That's why parents have to be notified if their kid asks or makes comments about it. How dreadful for the groomers and their allies that must be.
(04-25-2022, 10:44 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]This is about 6 year old children, they won't suggest it but they are eminently suggestable to it. That's why parents have to be notified if their kid asks or makes comments about it. How dreadful for the groomers and their allies that must be.
You're correct about 6-year-old children.
But the law is about K-12.
The law is pretty well tailored for high school age as well, but there is a misconception both sides have, and you seem to share it.
Unlike 6 year olds, 15 year olds will commonly suggest things about their own sexuality and gender identity. The misconception is that everything that a student might do that could indicate they are anything other than straight must be reported to parents. That is not what the law says. The law says that any change in services must be reported to the parents. If the student is getting a new name or a new bathroom, tell the parents. If the student is getting appointments with the guidance counselor, tell the parents. If the guidance counselor is changing therapies, tell the parents. These changes in services might have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. The law does not intend to out students and in nearly all cases would not out any students as long as teachers respectfully hedge their personal conversations with students. Which they should be doing anyways.
(04-25-2022, 12:20 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 10:44 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]This is about 6 year old children, they won't suggest it but they are eminently suggestable to it. That's why parents have to be notified if their kid asks or makes comments about it. How dreadful for the groomers and their allies that must be.
You're correct about 6-year-old children.
But the law is about K-12.
The law is pretty well tailored for high school age as well, but there is a misconception both sides have, and you seem to share it.
Unlike 6 year olds, 15 year olds will commonly suggest things about their own sexuality and gender identity. The misconception is that everything that a student might do that could indicate they are anything other than straight must be reported to parents. That is not what the law says. The law says that any change in services must be reported to the parents. If the student is getting a new name or a new bathroom, tell the parents. If the student is getting appointments with the guidance counselor, tell the parents. If the guidance counselor is changing therapies, tell the parents. These changes in services might have nothing to do with gender or sexuality. The law does not intend to out students and in nearly all cases would not out any students as long as teachers respectfully hedge their personal conversations with students. Which they should be doing anyways.
Terrific, again you show why this law is great and much needed in our schools.
(04-25-2022, 10:19 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (04-25-2022, 09:41 AM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]As usual you are wrong again. I know that Tucker Carlson probably triggers you, but this was a pretty good piece that he did that explains how the bill started.
I know what being triggered feels like.
Tucker doesn't trigger me.
I will not listen to Tucker simply because, like his predecessors Hannity and OReilly, his show is opinion and entertainment only. Any facts presented are purely coincidental. And yes, I avoid watching CNN and MSNBC primetime shows for the same reason.
It's unfortunate that democrats such as yourself reject a point-of-view from the other side because of your pre-conceived notions.
I'll summarize the piece for you.
Tucker talked about a Twitter account (Libsoftiktok) being censored for posting videos uploaded by other people on TikTok. These people claimed to be teachers, and what they were saying is very disturbing.
You have one girl with a nose ring claiming to be a PRESCHOOL "teacher" talking about how her students pick their gender every morning (we are talking 4 year olds here). Somebody that young barely knows how to go to the bathroom at the correct time.
Another one with green hair and facial piercings claims that she told her students (kindergarten) that she is "non-binary".
Etc.
Later in the piece he said that staffers for Governor DeSantis followed the twitter feed and alerted the administration of the content.
You and democrats like you think that facts presented by someone you disagree with is "purely coincidental".