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I think we all agree that ownership of firearms should be regulated. We all draw the line somewhere. We just draw the line in different places.

The second amendment says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't think any of us would want to allow people do drive around with a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car. I don't think any of us would want people to be able to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or in an APC. So we're all in favor of some sort of infringement. And apparently, that means we are all in favor of violating the 2nd amendment to some degree, and the 2nd amendment is not absolute.

(05-25-2022, 05:35 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-23-2022, 08:03 PM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]

"Heidi & I are fervently lifting up in prayer the children and families in the horrific shooting in Uvalde."

What an amazing man!

Yes he is.... That's why I voted for Cruz over Trump in the 2016 primaries...........

(05-25-2022, 06:47 AM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:35 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]"Heidi & I are fervently lifting up in prayer the children and families in the horrific shooting in Uvalde."

What an amazing man!

Yes he is.... That's why I voted for Cruz over Trump in the 2016 primaries...........

You missed the obvious sarcasm.
It's good for powerless commentators and pundits like us to pray for these events.
But people with the power to actually do something about it (Senators, for instance) should be doing more.
To whom much is given, much is expected.

There is always a balance when it comes to freedom. People will abuse it. The difference between the right and left is that the right will tolerate the cases where people abuse their freedom, with the provision they get punished harshly for it. The left would rather take those freedoms away at the cost of self-sufficiency. The right's approach will cost some lives in rare incidents but allows for greater productivity and overall happiness. The left's approach will create peace of mind but limits self-autonomy and potential abuse by the government.

I often feel that the problem in this situation is that it's easy to see the pitfalls that are created by the right's approach but is very difficult to see the pitfalls inherent in the left's approach.

(05-25-2022, 09:17 AM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]There is always a balance when it comes to freedom. People will abuse it. The difference between the right and left is that the right will tolerate the cases where people abuse their freedom, with the provision they get punished harshly for it. The left would rather take those freedoms away at the cost of self-sufficiency. The right's approach will cost some lives in rare incidents but allows for greater productivity and overall happiness. The left's approach will create peace of mind but limits self-autonomy and potential abuse by the government.

I often feel that the problem in this situation is that it's easy to see the pitfalls that are created by the right's approach but is very difficult to see the pitfalls inherent in the left's approach.

This is exactly right.
To me, Florida's recently passed red flag law threads the needle pretty well. I hope Texas passes a version of that in response to this, and I hope other states don't wait to have incidents of their own.
NY had a red flag law that should have stopped the Buffalo shooting, but it appears that the school officials who knew that kid was dangerous weren't educated on how to initiate new York's red flag process.
Hopefully all states will start to do a better job in this area.
But yes, to your point, the tension is between pre-emptive, pre-incident administrative law and post-incident civil and criminal law.  All three have roles to play in protecting people.

A few things are still puzzling to me regarding the recent shooting.

The shooter just recently turned 18, came from a broken home and lives in a town where the median income is I'm guessing probably relatively low compared to other areas.  An AR-15 is not exactly "cheap" as far as the price let alone getting extra accessories such as extra magazines and ammunition.

1.  Just how was an 18 year old "drop-out" from high school able to afford to legally buy not just one, but two rifles along with the accessories and ammunition?  As the owner of an undisclosed number of AR-15 rifles myself, I know that these things aren't exactly cheap.

2.  He does have a history of "mental illness".  From what I understand, he was routinely "picked on" as a young child because of a speech impediment and did some self-mutilation on himself according to past acquaintances.  It appears to me that he never received any professional help via some kind of doctor or therapist.  How exactly is this kind of thing supposed to be reported under so-called "red flag laws"?

What change in current law would prevent something like this from happening again?  The problem isn't the gun, the problem is mental health.  I blame lack of education and social media.

(05-25-2022, 06:15 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think we all agree that ownership of firearms should be regulated.  We all draw the line somewhere.  We just draw the line in different places. 

The second amendment says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't think any of us would want to allow people do drive around with a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car.  I don't think any of us would want people to be able to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or in an APC.  So we're all in favor of some sort of infringement.  And apparently, that means we are all in favor of violating the 2nd amendment to some degree, and the 2nd amendment is not absolute.

You're speaking for yourself.

(05-25-2022, 03:33 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]A few things are still puzzling to me regarding the recent shooting.

The shooter just recently turned 18, came from a broken home and lives in a town where the median income is I'm guessing probably relatively low compared to other areas.  An AR-15 is not exactly "cheap" as far as the price let alone getting extra accessories such as extra magazines and ammunition.

1.  Just how was an 18 year old "drop-out" from high school able to afford to legally buy not just one, but two rifles along with the accessories and ammunition?  As the owner of an undisclosed number of AR-15 rifles myself, I know that these things aren't exactly cheap.

2.  He does have a history of "mental illness".  From what I understand, he was routinely "picked on" as a young child because of a speech impediment and did some self-mutilation on himself according to past acquaintances.  It appears to me that he never received any professional help via some kind of doctor or therapist.  How exactly is this kind of thing supposed to be reported under so-called "red flag laws"?

What change in current law would prevent something like this from happening again?  The problem isn't the gun, the problem is mental health.  I blame lack of education and social media.

Get a credit card or cash advance considering he had no interest in ever paying back the money.

(05-25-2022, 03:33 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]A few things are still puzzling to me regarding the recent shooting.

The shooter just recently turned 18, came from a broken home and lives in a town where the median income is I'm guessing probably relatively low compared to other areas.  An AR-15 is not exactly "cheap" as far as the price let alone getting extra accessories such as extra magazines and ammunition.

1.  Just how was an 18 year old "drop-out" from high school able to afford to legally buy not just one, but two rifles along with the accessories and ammunition?  As the owner of an undisclosed number of AR-15 rifles myself, I know that these things aren't exactly cheap.

2.  He does have a history of "mental illness".  From what I understand, he was routinely "picked on" as a young child because of a speech impediment and did some self-mutilation on himself according to past acquaintances.  It appears to me that he never received any professional help via some kind of doctor or therapist.  How exactly is this kind of thing supposed to be reported under so-called "red flag laws"?

What change in current law would prevent something like this from happening again?  The problem isn't the gun, the problem is mental health.  I blame lack of education and social media.

There are none.  Gun control is not the answer.  Trying to legislate around mental illness will only infringe on civil liberties.  Feigning shock is an insult. Offering thoughts and prayers doesn't bring life back into the corpses sitting in a mortuary.

Gun violence is a ticking time bomb and you can only hope that you wont be at the wrong place at the wrong time when it goes off.

(05-25-2022, 06:47 AM)The Drifter Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:35 AM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]"Heidi & I are fervently lifting up in prayer the children and families in the horrific shooting in Uvalde."

What an amazing man!

Yes he is.... That's why I voted for Cruz over Trump in the 2016 primaries...........

Cowards voting for cowards.

(05-25-2022, 03:36 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 06:15 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]I think we all agree that ownership of firearms should be regulated.  We all draw the line somewhere.  We just draw the line in different places. 

The second amendment says, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I don't think any of us would want to allow people do drive around with a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car.  I don't think any of us would want people to be able to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or in an APC.  So we're all in favor of some sort of infringement.  And apparently, that means we are all in favor of violating the 2nd amendment to some degree, and the 2nd amendment is not absolute.

You're speaking for yourself.

Please elaborate.  What did I write that you disagree with?  Do you think the 2nd Amendment is absolute, and people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or have a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car?  Do you believe in any restriction at all?  No regulation whatsoever?

(05-25-2022, 05:22 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 03:36 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You're speaking for yourself.

Please elaborate.  What did I write that you disagree with?

He is just being his typical facetious self.

(05-25-2022, 05:22 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 03:36 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You're speaking for yourself.

Please elaborate.  What did I write that you disagree with?  Do you think the 2nd Amendment is absolute, and people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or have a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car?  Do you believe in any restriction at all?  No regulation whatsoever?

You said "I think we all...", no, we don't. Yes, I do believe those things. Happy now?

(05-25-2022, 05:28 PM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:22 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Please elaborate.  What did I write that you disagree with?

He is just being his typical facetious self.

He identifies as witty, not sarcastic.
And he's been open about not opposing private individuals owning nuclear weapons, fighter jets, and anything else you can think of.

(05-25-2022, 05:47 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:28 PM)captivating Wrote: [ -> ]He is just being his typical facetious self.

He identifies as witty, not sarcastic.
And he's been open about not opposing private individuals owning nuclear weapons, fighter jets, and anything else you can think of.

I identify as American. If peeps can afford those things then more power to them.

(05-25-2022, 05:47 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:22 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]Please elaborate.  What did I write that you disagree with?  Do you think the 2nd Amendment is absolute, and people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or have a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on their car?  Do you believe in any restriction at all?  No regulation whatsoever?

You said "I think we all...", no, we don't. Yes, I do believe those things. Happy now?

So you think people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or mount a 50 caliber machine gun on their car?

(05-25-2022, 03:33 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ]2.  He does have a history of "mental illness".  From what I understand, he was routinely "picked on" as a young child because of a speech impediment and did some self-mutilation on himself according to past acquaintances.  It appears to me that he never received any professional help via some kind of doctor or therapist.  How exactly is this kind of thing supposed to be reported under so-called "red flag laws"?

What change in current law would prevent something like this from happening again?  The problem isn't the gun, the problem is mental health.  I blame lack of education and social media.

A red flag law is still worth implementing even if it wouldn't have helped in this particular case. 
However I suspect it would have helped us here. It doesn't have to be a health professional reporting you. His grandmother probably had enough information to report him. But that is speculation, it remains to be seen.

(05-25-2022, 06:01 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 05:47 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]You said "I think we all...", no, we don't. Yes, I do believe those things. Happy now?

So you think people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or mount a 50 caliber machine gun on their car?

Sure, I don't care.

(05-25-2022, 06:13 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 06:01 PM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]So you think people should be allowed to drive around in a self-propelled howitzer, or mount a 50 caliber machine gun on their car?

Sure, I don't care.

That's asinine.

(05-25-2022, 06:57 PM)Lucky2Last Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-25-2022, 06:13 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, I don't care.

That's asinine.

It is, but we're all just guessing the weight of an elephant over here. FSG's guess is an extreme outlier for this particular elephant, but he gets pretty close to the truth in other cases.