A man stretches a wire across the Grand Canyon and invites 100 of the poorest people he can find to one side. Then he tells them that anyone who walks across that wire to the other side will collect $1 million. 20 people try. 5 of them fall to their death.
Any reasonable person would say that the man who strung the wire and made the offer bears some responsibility for those 5 deaths.
And that's one way to look at the lack of control of our borders. The people who allow this to happen bear at least some responsibility for desperate people dying in the desert, or in the back of an un-ventilated truck, or drowning in the Rio Grande. We are killing people by luring them into trying to cross the border.
Failing to control our border is causing people to die in the attempt. I think anyone who wants better border control needs to make that point. Compassion demands that we get control of this process. It's not that we don't want Mexicans to come into the country. We need them. But having them try to sneak in is killing them.
I think this is the way to make the point about controlling the border.
(09-19-2022, 06:55 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]A man stretches a wire across the Grand Canyon and invites 100 of the poorest people he can find to one side. Then he tells them that anyone who walks across that wire to the other side will collect $1 million. 20 people try. 5 of them fall to their death.
Any reasonable person would say that the man who strung the wire and made the offer bears some responsibility for those 5 deaths.
And that's one way to look at the lack of control of our borders. The people who allow this to happen bear at least some responsibility for desperate people dying in the desert, or in the back of an un-ventilated truck, or drowning in the Rio Grande. We are killing people by luring them into trying to cross the border.
Failing to control our border is causing people to die in the attempt. I think anyone who wants better border control needs to make that point. Compassion demands that we get control of this process. It's not that we don't want Mexicans to come into the country. We need them. But having them try to sneak in is killing them.
I think this is the way to make the point about controlling the border.
We can expand on this scenario. Let’s say the people who fell struck and killed people on the ground. That is exactly what’s happening with the deluge of Chinese fentanyl flooding across a border intentionally relaxed to attract illegal immigrants.
It's an interesting metaphor. But the man offering the prize is all of us. We have a decent lifestyle with relatively low crime and relatively good infrastructure. On top of that, we have a labor shortage, at least lately. That's the prize. Perhaps none of us are overtly offering it, but we don't have to. It's there. They can see it and they want it. As for the wire rope, what is the suggestion? Make it safer so less people die? Or more dangerous so less people try? If you make it safer, probably more people try and overall the same number die. If you make it more dangerous, probably less people try but the same number die.
Many components have to come together for a solution, but one is, make the people happier with where they are. The Remain in Mexico policy is part of that. We need to build on it. Just like the EU gives Turkey money to encourage Lebanese and Syrian refugees to settle, we need to be giving Mexico money to help them reduce crime and settle central American refugees.
But we also need to be vetting and carefully selecting people from all over the world to help address the labor shortage we have.
(09-19-2022, 11:26 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's an interesting metaphor. But the man offering the prize is all of us. We have a decent lifestyle with relatively low crime and relatively good infrastructure. On top of that, we have a labor shortage, at least lately. That's the prize. Perhaps none of us are overtly offering it, but we don't have to. It's there. They can see it and they want it. As for the wire rope, what is the suggestion? Make it safer so less people die? Or more dangerous so less people try? If you make it safer, probably more people try and overall the same number die. If you make it more dangerous, probably less people try but the same number die.
No, my solution is to prevent people from sneaking over the border. Either build a wall, or hire more border patrol, or both. We are tempting people to make that effort because they see that it is possible. And a lot of them die in the process. If we could actually stop people from crossing the border, then fewer people will try it and fewer people will die in the attempt. But right now, so many people are succeeding in getting into the country illegally, people see that and they decide they can do it, too.
And that's what is
immoral about not sealing the border. A good argument can be made that the people who refuse to deal with this have blood on their hands.
(09-19-2022, 11:42 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 11:26 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's an interesting metaphor. But the man offering the prize is all of us. We have a decent lifestyle with relatively low crime and relatively good infrastructure. On top of that, we have a labor shortage, at least lately. That's the prize. Perhaps none of us are overtly offering it, but we don't have to. It's there. They can see it and they want it. As for the wire rope, what is the suggestion? Make it safer so less people die? Or more dangerous so less people try? If you make it safer, probably more people try and overall the same number die. If you make it more dangerous, probably less people try but the same number die.
No, my solution is to prevent people from sneaking over the border. Either build a wall, or hire more border patrol, or both. We are tempting people to make that effort because they see that it is possible. And a lot of them die in the process. If we could actually stop people from crossing the border, then fewer people will try it and fewer people will die in the attempt. But right now, so many people are succeeding in getting into the country illegally, people see that and they decide they can do it, too.
And that's what is immoral about not sealing the border. A good argument can be made that the people who refuse to deal with this have blood on their hands.
I’m going to utter #evilorangeman’s name, but according to Jared Kushner, Trump’s plan was to build the wall with a ‘big beautiful gate’ to welcome and process immigrants. But the left won and this is what we have; dead immigrants, dead Americans and the infiltration of undesirables and terrorists into our country.
Good order and discipline is racist, doncha know.
(09-19-2022, 11:42 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 11:26 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's an interesting metaphor. But the man offering the prize is all of us. We have a decent lifestyle with relatively low crime and relatively good infrastructure. On top of that, we have a labor shortage, at least lately. That's the prize. Perhaps none of us are overtly offering it, but we don't have to. It's there. They can see it and they want it. As for the wire rope, what is the suggestion? Make it safer so less people die? Or more dangerous so less people try? If you make it safer, probably more people try and overall the same number die. If you make it more dangerous, probably less people try but the same number die.
No, my solution is to prevent people from sneaking over the border. Either build a wall, or hire more border patrol, or both. We are tempting people to make that effort because they see that it is possible. And a lot of them die in the process. If we could actually stop people from crossing the border, then fewer people will try it and fewer people will die in the attempt. But right now, so many people are succeeding in getting into the country illegally, people see that and they decide they can do it, too.
And that's what is immoral about not sealing the border. A good argument can be made that the people who refuse to deal with this have blood on their hands.
Human behavior is much less predictable and rational than you seem to think. Many who are stopped will try again, perhaps using a different and riskier method.
(09-19-2022, 06:55 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]A man stretches a wire across the Grand Canyon and invites 100 of the poorest people he can find to one side. Then he tells them that anyone who walks across that wire to the other side will collect $1 million. 20 people try. 5 of them fall to their death.
Any reasonable person would say that the man who strung the wire and made the offer bears some responsibility for those 5 deaths.
And that's one way to look at the lack of control of our borders. The people who allow this to happen bear at least some responsibility for desperate people dying in the desert, or in the back of an un-ventilated truck, or drowning in the Rio Grande. We are killing people by luring them into trying to cross the border.
Failing to control our border is causing people to die in the attempt. I think anyone who wants better border control needs to make that point. Compassion demands that we get control of this process. It's not that we don't want Mexicans to come into the country. We need them. But having them try to sneak in is killing them.
I think this is the way to make the point about controlling the border.
I think they bear a whole hell of a lot more than “at least some”. Way more.
(09-19-2022, 11:51 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 11:42 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]No, my solution is to prevent people from sneaking over the border. Either build a wall, or hire more border patrol, or both. We are tempting people to make that effort because they see that it is possible. And a lot of them die in the process. If we could actually stop people from crossing the border, then fewer people will try it and fewer people will die in the attempt. But right now, so many people are succeeding in getting into the country illegally, people see that and they decide they can do it, too.
And that's what is immoral about not sealing the border. A good argument can be made that the people who refuse to deal with this have blood on their hands.
I’m going to utter #evilorangeman’s name, but according to Jared Kushner, Trump’s plan was to build the wall with a ‘big beautiful gate’ to welcome and process immigrants. But the left won and this is what we have; dead immigrants, dead Americans and the infiltration of undesirables and terrorists into our country.
Good order and discipline is racist, doncha know.
That is what Trump said but he also drastically cut back on legal immigration. So he did intend for there to be a "gate," but only a small one.
(09-19-2022, 12:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 11:51 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I’m going to utter #evilorangeman’s name, but according to Jared Kushner, Trump’s plan was to build the wall with a ‘big beautiful gate’ to welcome and process immigrants. But the left won and this is what we have; dead immigrants, dead Americans and the infiltration of undesirables and terrorists into our country.
Good order and discipline is racist, doncha know.
That is what Trump said but he also drastically cut back on legal immigration. So he did intend for there to be a "gate," but only a small one.
His idea was to transition to a more merit based system, not decrease it.
(09-19-2022, 12:24 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 12:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]That is what Trump said but he also drastically cut back on legal immigration. So he did intend for there to be a "gate," but only a small one.
His idea was to transition to a more merit based system, not decrease it.
Actions speak louder than words.
(09-19-2022, 01:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 01:00 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]They sure do.
“The border is secure.”
https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/155...t-migrants
![[Image: Kamala-laughing.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1]](https://i0.wp.com/www.polishnews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Kamala-laughing.jpg?resize=1024%2C576&ssl=1)
Biden’s duplicity does not excuse Trump's.
I know you so desperately want to deflect this thread into a screed about Trump, or yourself. Which is fine. We’ll continue on without you.
(09-19-2022, 01:20 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 01:08 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Biden’s duplicity does not excuse Trump's.
I know you so desperately want to deflect this thread into a screed about Trump, or yourself. Which is fine. We’ll continue on without you.
Who mentioned Trump first in this thread?
(09-19-2022, 01:32 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 01:20 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]I know you so desperately want to deflect this thread into a screed about Trump, or yourself. Which is fine. We’ll continue on without you.
Who mentioned Trump first in this thread?
Valid point but I brought him up comparatively speaking. You inserted your opinion as fact and sought to debate it.
Regardless, this thread is about the utterly dismal failure and concerted effort to mislead, and endanger, the American public by the Biden administration. To wit:
Enough fentanyl seized, right here in the River City, to kill 1.5 million people.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2022...on-adults/
I would argue that in the scenario presented that gravity would be most responsible for the death plunges. Gravity must go. That or the wire manufacturing company.
Really the fact is that the day creepy joe took office they turned on the big red flashing neon OPEN sign and it has not been turned off since. The sign must be turned off. Period.
(09-19-2022, 01:53 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (09-19-2022, 01:32 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Who mentioned Trump first in this thread?
Valid point but I brought him up comparatively speaking. You inserted your opinion as fact and sought to debate it.
Regardless, this thread is about the utterly dismal failure and concerted effort to mislead, and endanger, the American public by the Biden administration. To wit:
Enough fentanyl seized, right here in the River City, to kill 1.5 million people.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2022...on-adults/
The reduction in the quotas and visas offered for legal immigration under Trump are a matter of numerical fact.
(09-19-2022, 02:03 PM)Jagwired Wrote: [ -> ]I would argue that in the scenario presented that gravity would be most responsible for the death plunges. Gravity must go. That or the wire manufacturing company.
Really the fact is that the day creepy joe took office they turned on the big red flashing neon OPEN sign and it has not been turned off since. The sign must be turned off. Period.
You agree that the sign is a metaphor. This is not an actual electric light or billboard.
So, making it real, what does "turning it off" look like? How will we know it's off?
In addition to human lives lost, there are numerous other tragedies that affect not only the illegals (google rape trees), but also the destruction of private property to ranchers/home owners along the border.
It's not the same border that it used to be 10 or 15 years ago. Illegals used to come on rancher's property looking to work for some money, then they would go back. It's not like that now.
I have first-hand (well I guess second-hand) information about this as I have relatives and friends of my family that own ranches along the border in New Mexico and Texas.
Oh my God. Mike, stop being obtuse. No one agrees with you. The border situation is not the problem of one party over another and it damn sure isn't the problem of the typical American. I haven't done one thing to invite any immigrants here, legal or otherwise. The cheap prices of most goods is thanks to everything being made in China, India, Taiwan, etc. The cheap price for services is thanks to mostly Hispanics I'll give you that.
The problem is the problem and you can't explain it away with word salads or your "superior" knowledge of things. It is what it is and the people who can do something about it have no incentive to do so for various reasons and people are suffering and/or dying. You can't dismiss that with any argument.