(10-14-2022, 03:38 PM)jagibelieve Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 02:49 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Help me understand this statement and allow me to elaborate the question. My wife and I purchased our dream home in 1997 for a tidy sum back then of 110k. Through self control, prudent spending, and personal home improvements we were able to pay off our 30 year mortgage in less than 15 years. We did this while living on one income and banking/doubling our mortgage payments. Since then we have invested in personal improvements and upgrades that satisfy us. As such the property value has quadrupled. As we enter our retirement years there will be a day under your statement that we will no longer be able to afford the taxes on something we worked a lifetime to achieve by doing everything right. We have paid taxes on every board, nail and drop of paint on our home. Yet you want us to pay even more because we had the audacity to pay off our mortgage early (saving interest payments) because we upgraded our purchase into a personal paradise. Punishing people for being responsible is, nor will ever be a conservative principle. I await your clarification.
It sounds like you have lived the "American Dream" much like my wife and I. We purchased a modest home on the West side of Jacksonville in the early 1990's. We worked hard, paid our mortgage off in a bit over 15 years. Saved up money for several years then finally bought our "retirement" place. We were able to both retire early (well before 60) and after turning 35+ acres of woods into an "estate" our property taxes are much higher than we ever paid.
The thing is, property taxes, especially for my place are way too high. We have a modest 2000 sq. ft. home, a garage, a couple of barns and some fields with fruit and nut trees. Suddenly this patch of woods is so "valuable" that our property taxes reflect that we live in a "mansion" or something.
And that is the issue. The system is rigged to make everyone dependent on government except the elite. There are too many stupid people to reverse the course.
(10-14-2022, 02:49 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 11:09 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]These aren't laments. I think there is an optimum property tax rate, and it's not so much that NYC and LA suffer because theirs is too low, it's that they are missing out on growth opportunities that they could unlock if they lowered their income and sales tax and raised their property tax to make up the difference.
As for income inequality, we know from history that there are few better predictors of coups and revolutions than income inequality. And we know, when we look at places like Brazil and Mexico, that our small-d democratic Presidential form of government is not immune to coups or revolutions. It's better than a monarchy or dictatorship, but it's not immune to problems.
So don't misunderstand me. I don't mention inequality as a concern out of a bleeding heart or any misplaced sympathy - "the poor will always be among us." I only mention it because I want to, conservatively, preserve our present form of government.
Help me understand this statement and allow me to elaborate the question. My wife and I purchased our dream home in 1997 for a tidy sum back then of 110k. Through self control, prudent spending, and personal home improvements we were able to pay off our 30 year mortgage in less than 15 years. We did this while living on one income and banking/doubling our mortgage payments. Since then we have invested in personal improvements and upgrades that satisfy us. As such the property value has quadrupled. As we enter our retirement years there will be a day under your statement that we will no longer be able to afford the taxes on something we worked a lifetime to achieve by doing everything right. We have paid taxes on every board, nail and drop of paint on our home. Yet you want us to pay even more because we had the audacity to pay off our mortgage early (saving interest payments) because we upgraded our purchase into a personal paradise. Punishing people for being responsible is, nor will ever be a conservative principle. I await your clarification.
You're in FL right? Not LA? Not NYC?
(10-14-2022, 06:54 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 02:49 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Help me understand this statement and allow me to elaborate the question. My wife and I purchased our dream home in 1997 for a tidy sum back then of 110k. Through self control, prudent spending, and personal home improvements we were able to pay off our 30 year mortgage in less than 15 years. We did this while living on one income and banking/doubling our mortgage payments. Since then we have invested in personal improvements and upgrades that satisfy us. As such the property value has quadrupled. As we enter our retirement years there will be a day under your statement that we will no longer be able to afford the taxes on something we worked a lifetime to achieve by doing everything right. We have paid taxes on every board, nail and drop of paint on our home. Yet you want us to pay even more because we had the audacity to pay off our mortgage early (saving interest payments) because we upgraded our purchase into a personal paradise. Punishing people for being responsible is, nor will ever be a conservative principle. I await your clarification.
You're in FL right? Not LA? Not NYC?
That’s not the point Mike. You stated property owners need to pay more taxes. Explain.
(10-14-2022, 06:57 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 06:54 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]You're in FL right? Not LA? Not NYC?
That’s not the point Mike. You stated property owners need to pay more taxes. Explain.
I said property owners in NYC and LA should pay higher property taxes. And lower (or no) income taxes. That offends you why?
(10-14-2022, 07:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 06:57 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]That’s not the point Mike. You stated property owners need to pay more taxes. Explain.
I said property owners in NYC and LA should pay higher property taxes. And lower (or no) income taxes. That offends you why?
Pretty sure I spelled it out clearly. You made a statement that property owners need to pay more taxes, the location is irrelevant. I am asking you to clarify your position. It shouldn’t be that hard if you actually believe what you typed.
(10-14-2022, 07:19 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 07:00 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I said property owners in NYC and LA should pay higher property taxes. And lower (or no) income taxes. That offends you why?
Pretty sure I spelled it out clearly. You made a statement that property owners need to pay more taxes, the location is irrelevant. I am asking you to clarify your position. It shouldn’t be that hard if you actually believe what you typed.
Is the location irrelevant? One location charges 1% of assessed value. Another charges 5%. That's irrelevant to you?
(10-14-2022, 07:26 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 07:19 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure I spelled it out clearly. You made a statement that property owners need to pay more taxes, the location is irrelevant. I am asking you to clarify your position. It shouldn’t be that hard if you actually believe what you typed.
Is the location irrelevant? One location charges 1% of assessed value. Another charges 5%. That's irrelevant to you?
So you are unable to defend your statement and instead rely on semantics. Why did I expect anything different?
(10-14-2022, 07:35 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 07:26 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Is the location irrelevant? One location charges 1% of assessed value. Another charges 5%. That's irrelevant to you?
So you are unable to defend your statement and instead rely on semantics. Why did I expect anything different?
At least I made a statement. What's your opinion on property taxes?
Dude is being willfully obtuse. You won't get a straight answer from him so why waste your time?
(10-14-2022, 11:09 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]These aren't laments. I think there is an optimum property tax rate, and it's not so much that NYC and LA suffer because theirs is too low, it's that they are missing out on growth opportunities that they could unlock if they lowered their income and sales tax and raised their property tax to make up the difference.
What makes you think raising property taxes will stimulate growth in NYC and LA?
(10-14-2022, 07:56 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 07:35 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]So you are unable to defend your statement and instead rely on semantics. Why did I expect anything different?
At least I made a statement. What's your opinion on property taxes?
You have made no statement at all. You regurgitated some information you found and when asked to clarify the statement you are unable to.
As for my opinion on property taxes, anyone with analytical skills should be able to deduce my position in the question I asked you.
(10-14-2022, 08:34 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Dude is being willfully obtuse. You won't get a straight answer from him so why waste your time?
I know, I blame tequila.
(10-14-2022, 08:47 PM)Sneakers Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 11:09 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]These aren't laments. I think there is an optimum property tax rate, and it's not so much that NYC and LA suffer because theirs is too low, it's that they are missing out on growth opportunities that they could unlock if they lowered their income and sales tax and raised their property tax to make up the difference.
What makes you think raising property taxes will stimulate growth in NYC and LA?
On its own it would not.
It would allow you to reduce income taxes, which would then stimulate some growth.
And if the zoning was loosened up, it would further incentivize higher density development, which over time would reduce median housing costs via supply and demand.
So you'd have lower housing costs and lower income tax. More disposable income. More growth, obviously.
(10-15-2022, 06:13 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-14-2022, 07:56 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]At least I made a statement. What's your opinion on property taxes?
You have made no statement at all. You regurgitated some information you found and when asked to clarify the statement you are unable to.
As for my opinion on property taxes, anyone with analytical skills should be able to deduce my position in the question I asked you.
(10-14-2022, 08:34 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]Dude is being willfully obtuse. You won't get a straight answer from him so why waste your time?
I know, I blame tequila.
I've deduced your position. Your position is that any amount of property tax is morally wrong because once you pay off your mortgage it should be yours forever. Then you should be able to pass it to your kids and your kids should be able to live in it tax free indefinitely. So your kids will live tax free and rent free and mortgage free and they will have extra disposable income to out-compete the people still paying their property off as they invest in adjacent properties, pay them off, and pass even more property to their kids. Meanwhile there is no penalty for continuing to acquire more and more property, so there is little motive to sell or redevelop. Your property, with no mortgage, no tax, no costs, is worth more to you than it could ever be worth to any new owner who might have to pay some of those things, at least at first
Some people call that the feudal system. It probably sounds better when you explain it. Which is why I gave you the chance.
NYC, LA and similar cities have no reason to lower property tax. They have people at their mercy who are invested in their homes, jobs and kid's schools who aren't willing (or able) to move. They have a captive audience so there's no reason for these cities to do anything to take away from that tax revenue.
Rico lives in the Dallas suburbs and pays $500 a month in property tax alone. That is absurd.
(10-15-2022, 04:04 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]NYC, LA and similar cities have no reason to lower property tax. They have people at their mercy who are invested in their homes, jobs and kid's schools who aren't willing (or able) to move. They have a captive audience so there's no reason for these cities to do anything to take away from that tax revenue.
Rico lives in the Dallas suburbs and pays $500 a month in property tax alone. That is absurd.
Texas no longer has big oil and big tech like they did back in the 50s through 80s to subsidize their lack of state taxes. Thankfully Florida has tourism to keep our property taxes low.
(10-15-2022, 04:04 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ]NYC, LA and similar cities have no reason to lower property tax. They have people at their mercy who are invested in their homes, jobs and kid's schools who aren't willing (or able) to move. They have a captive audience so there's no reason for these cities to do anything to take away from that tax revenue.
Rico lives in the Dallas suburbs and pays $500 a month in property tax alone. That is absurd.
Texas is more like Illinois.
The rates are too high, and the valuations are either too low (because the school district has a bad reputation) or too high (because the school district has a good reputation). And that's a self fulfilling prophesy of course. People pay more for the property because the schools are assumed to be better, then their valuation is higher and their actual tax payments are higher, and suddenly that school district really is able to spend more per student and everything that goes along with that.
That's another trap of bad local government that Florida has avoided, because we fund schools at the county level and we have large counties.
(10-15-2022, 12:32 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-15-2022, 06:13 AM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]You have made no statement at all. You regurgitated some information you found and when asked to clarify the statement you are unable to.
As for my opinion on property taxes, anyone with analytical skills should be able to deduce my position in the question I asked you.
I know, I blame tequila.
I've deduced your position. Your position is that any amount of property tax is morally wrong because once you pay off your mortgage it should be yours forever. Then you should be able to pass it to your kids and your kids should be able to live in it tax free indefinitely. So your kids will live tax free and rent free and mortgage free and they will have extra disposable income to out-compete the people still paying their property off as they invest in adjacent properties, pay them off, and pass even more property to their kids. Meanwhile there is no penalty for continuing to acquire more and more property, so there is little motive to sell or redevelop. Your property, with no mortgage, no tax, no costs, is worth more to you than it could ever be worth to any new owner who might have to pay some of those things, at least at first
Some people call that the feudal system. It probably sounds better when you explain it. Which is why I gave you the chance.
Wow! I think I see the issue when dealing with you. You are unable to process any information outside of what you read off of a website. You have no empathy and are unable to correlate real world experiences with the “facts” you read off of your google searches. So let me try and help you understand what common everyday people experience in the real world.
1. You still have yet to answer my original question.
2. Yes property taxes are 100% morally wrong. Your conclusion however is also 100% wrong.
3. When my wife and I purchased our home we paid taxes on the purchase.
4. With every upgrade we have made we have paid taxes on again, every board, nail and drop of paint.
5. With the two aforementioned facts listed, we are punished every year for having been responsible adults, saving our hard earned income as we sacrificed immediate gratification for a brighter future. Also, according to you we should be punished further because we actually own property.
6. And this is where I really get ticked off with this tax system that you support, because we had the audacity of not paying interest for 30 years we are unable to deduct what we actually did pay to get here we are. Ergo, we are punished thrice for being responsible.
7. Finally how in the hell did you make the leap to an inheritance tax and a feudal system with anything I previously posted? What the heck are you smoking?
(10-15-2022, 07:26 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ] (10-15-2022, 12:32 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I've deduced your position. Your position is that any amount of property tax is morally wrong because once you pay off your mortgage it should be yours forever. Then you should be able to pass it to your kids and your kids should be able to live in it tax free indefinitely. So your kids will live tax free and rent free and mortgage free and they will have extra disposable income to out-compete the people still paying their property off as they invest in adjacent properties, pay them off, and pass even more property to their kids. Meanwhile there is no penalty for continuing to acquire more and more property, so there is little motive to sell or redevelop. Your property, with no mortgage, no tax, no costs, is worth more to you than it could ever be worth to any new owner who might have to pay some of those things, at least at first
Some people call that the feudal system. It probably sounds better when you explain it. Which is why I gave you the chance.
Wow! I think I see the issue when dealing with you. You are unable to process any information outside of what you read off of a website. You have no empathy and are unable to correlate real world experiences with the “facts” you read off of your google searches. So let me try and help you understand what common everyday people experience in the real world.
1. You still have yet to answer my original question.
2. Yes property taxes are 100% morally wrong. Your conclusion however is also 100% wrong.
3. When my wife and I purchased our home we paid taxes on the purchase.
4. With every upgrade we have made we have paid taxes on again, every board, nail and drop of paint.
5. With the two aforementioned facts listed, we are punished every year for having been responsible adults, saving our hard earned income as we sacrificed immediate gratification for a brighter future. Also, according to you we should be punished further because we actually own property.
6. And this is where I really get ticked off with this tax system that you support, because we had the audacity of not paying interest for 30 years we are unable to deduct what we actually did pay to get here we are. Ergo, we are punished thrice for being responsible.
7. Finally how in the hell did you make the leap to an inheritance tax and a feudal system with anything I previously posted? What the heck are you smoking?
You did not pay sales taxes when you purchased your house. Then you paid the interest on the mortgage out of your pre-income-tax income. The home improvements, yes, you likely paid sales tax on those and paid them out of your post-income-tax income.
So your martyrdom is somewhat overwrought. You can get off the cross.
And leaving aside that you don't understand our income tax system, where did I say I support any aspect it?
Are inheritance taxes OK? Should we tax inheritances?
(10-15-2022, 07:35 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (10-15-2022, 07:26 PM)copycat Wrote: [ -> ]Wow! I think I see the issue when dealing with you. You are unable to process any information outside of what you read off of a website. You have no empathy and are unable to correlate real world experiences with the “facts” you read off of your google searches. So let me try and help you understand what common everyday people experience in the real world.
1. You still have yet to answer my original question.
2. Yes property taxes are 100% morally wrong. Your conclusion however is also 100% wrong.
3. When my wife and I purchased our home we paid taxes on the purchase.
4. With every upgrade we have made we have paid taxes on again, every board, nail and drop of paint.
5. With the two aforementioned facts listed, we are punished every year for having been responsible adults, saving our hard earned income as we sacrificed immediate gratification for a brighter future. Also, according to you we should be punished further because we actually own property.
6. And this is where I really get ticked off with this tax system that you support, because we had the audacity of not paying interest for 30 years we are unable to deduct what we actually did pay to get here we are. Ergo, we are punished thrice for being responsible.
7. Finally how in the hell did you make the leap to an inheritance tax and a feudal system with anything I previously posted? What the heck are you smoking?
You did not pay sales taxes when you purchased your house. Then you paid the interest on the mortgage out of your pre-income-tax income. The home improvements, yes, you likely paid sales tax on those and paid them out of your post-income-tax income.
So your martyrdom is somewhat overwrought. You can get off the cross.
And leaving aside that you don't understand our income tax system, where did I say I support any aspect it?
Are inheritance taxes OK? Should we tax inheritances?
No Mr. Sez we are done until you answer my original question.
I think he enjoys being a contortionist.