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France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

(03-23-2023, 08:57 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

(03-23-2023, 09:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-23-2023, 08:57 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

I would like to imitate French Revolutionaries and introduce our political class to Msr. Guillotine.

Let them eat cake..

(03-23-2023, 09:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-23-2023, 08:57 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]France has a progressive income tax rate like ours maxing out at 45%. They also have a VAT tax of 20%, combine the two and that's a 65% tax rate at the top. Even with the rich paying almost 2/3rds of income to the state, they still can not fund their social programs. 

Does this make anyone rethink the non sense that is endless state funded social programs? Is it not better to realize that all money confiscated through taxation is inefficient at best. Surely no one can argue that France just simply doesn't tax enough. 

Reason with me my liberal friends, how does this not persuade one that taxation for utopia is a pipe dream?

American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

But that's the point, progressives point to Europe and tell me if we tax more we can have all those great social programs. And yet France with a 65% tax isn't able to afford it still!

(03-23-2023, 10:14 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-23-2023, 09:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

But that's the point, progressives point to Europe and tell me if we tax more we can have all those great social programs. And yet France with a 65% tax isn't able to afford it still!

Greece knows.

(03-23-2023, 10:14 PM)EricC85 Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-23-2023, 09:19 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]American progressives don't really want to lower our retirement age to 62 like France.  They're OK with 67.  Those 5 years make a big difference in the sustainability of the structure.
American progressives would like to imitate French housing and transit and health care policy maybe but not the retirement age.

But that's the point, progressives point to Europe and tell me if we tax more we can have all those great social programs. And yet France with a 65% tax isn't able to afford it still!

The progressives in America point to the fact that our top marginal rate was 90% from about 1940 to 1960.  They say we should aspire to that.

Taxation is theft. It's astounding that we continue to allow the same, cyclical nonsense to occur here in the states. They raise the ceiling while deepening the floor while also doing what they please with the taxes they take. We get no say in it.

Then, they lose trillions of dollars here and there and it's swept under the [BLEEP] rug while telling us that we'll have to work well into our 60's and you'll be lucky if there's any crumbs left to survive off of for retirement. There should be protests in the streets daily over this.

(03-24-2023, 09:24 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Taxation is theft. It's astounding that we continue to allow the same, cyclical nonsense to occur here in the states. They raise the ceiling while deepening the floor while also doing what they please with the taxes they take. We get no say in it.

Then, they lose trillions of dollars here and there and it's swept under the [BLEEP] rug while telling us that we'll have to work well into our 60's and you'll be lucky if there's any crumbs left to survive off of for retirement. There should be protests in the streets daily over this.

Taxation is not theft.  That's a ridiculous statement.  Taxation is you fulfilling your duty to pay for what you are getting from the federal government.  If you don't want to pay for all those weapons and interstate highways and national parks, medicare, social security, and all the other stuff, move to another country.  

"We get no say in it" is another ridiculous statement.  We have elections.  

And if you've worked into your 60s and have no crumbs left to survive in retirement, you've mismanaged your life.

(03-24-2023, 10:15 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-24-2023, 09:24 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Taxation is theft. It's astounding that we continue to allow the same, cyclical nonsense to occur here in the states. They raise the ceiling while deepening the floor while also doing what they please with the taxes they take. We get no say in it.

Then, they lose trillions of dollars here and there and it's swept under the [BLEEP] rug while telling us that we'll have to work well into our 60's and you'll be lucky if there's any crumbs left to survive off of for retirement. There should be protests in the streets daily over this.

Taxation is not theft.  That's a ridiculous statement.  Taxation is you fulfilling your duty to pay for what you are getting from the federal government.  If you don't want to pay for all those weapons and interstate highways and national parks, medicare, social security, and all the other stuff, move to another country.  

"We get no say in it" is another ridiculous statement.  We have elections.  

And if you've worked into your 60s and have no crumbs left to survive in retirement, you've mismanaged your life.

Taxation is theft. It's not ridiculous. We get the ILLUSION that we get a say in it. Elections are [BLEEP]. Just like the last one. You must not be reading up on Social Security then because they keep saying it won't be there at 65, possibly 70. Which is my point of it BEING [BLEEP] THEFT.

They're taking a large chunk out of your monthly income on the PROMISE that it'll be there if YOU"RE LUCKY to live long enough to see retirement. Which, the age on that they keep pushing out. I will be completely cool with paying my taxes if I could get a legitimate form to fill out and say in where it goes. 

Veterans being taken care of.

Public schools having better funding to educate the youth. 

Public access to better transportation or aftercare programs to help families that are unfortunate. You know? Because sometimes people are managing their lives just fine and then a wife or husband dies and everything goes to [BLEEP].

For somebody that has "philosopher" listed under his username. You sure as [BLEEP] don't strike me as one that has any real, tangible brains.

I agree with Marty here, taxation is not theft. Taxes are the price we pay for civilized society. Unless you have easements through private property between your house and your workplace, you use taxpayer dollars to drive on the roads to get back-and-forth. The water that comes out of your faucet, the electricity which flows through your outlet, the military which protects us, along with police and first responders are all taxpayer funded infrastructure and vital services. These are only a fraction of the necessities of good governance and civilized society. We all use them so we must all pay for them.

It's more fundamental than this. Money (as in easily exchangeable, verifiable and divisible tokens of exchange -definition excludes raw precious metal) doesn't exist without taxation. Taxation can exist without money (see the Roman tax code under Diocletian, or various peace treaties where payment is promised in raw gold) but there is no instance in all of history where money exists without taxation. Money is never just a means to settle private debt. It is always there to settle public debt as well. People settle on one medium of exchange (a coin, for instance) out of an infinite realm of possibilities (shells, pearls, purple cloth squares) because that one medium is the medium that the government collects taxes in.

Zelensky said you must pay your taxes because he needs more guns and ammo..

(03-24-2023, 10:50 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's more fundamental than this.  Money (as in easily exchangeable, verifiable and divisible tokens of exchange -definition excludes raw precious metal) doesn't exist without taxation.  Taxation can exist without money (see the Roman tax code under Diocletian, or various peace treaties where payment is promised in raw gold) but there is no instance in all of history where money exists without taxation.  Money is never just a means to settle private debt.  It is always there to settle public debt as well.  People settle on one medium of exchange (a coin, for instance) out of an infinite realm of possibilities (shells, pearls, purple cloth squares) because that one medium is the medium that the government collects taxes in.

Currency itself is manufactured with tax money.

The FED and the Tax System is all [BLEEP]. Period. Just because somebody says they're using it for X, Y & Z means dick. There's not enough evidence to support this. Our country is going to [BLEEP] while the Government continues to leak trillions of dollars out of it's [BLEEP] like the verbal diarrhea it spews into the public.

We get [BLEEP]. That's about it. The water? Tell that to the people up in Flint or Jackson. Again, I AM NOT AGAINST TAXES. I am just saying it's [BLEEP] theft. Especially when you're entrusting these crooks that wear red ties and blue ties to do the right thing with said taxes. A lot of you on here have elected a number of people over the years. Yet, we're all still pissing and moaning about the same cyclical nonsense.

Nothing is getting resolved. You know what does get resolved though? The bank accounts, assets and families of the people and politicians that rig and run our tax systems and all of our systems here. [BLEEP] taxes. [BLEEP] politicians. Give me a ballot that I can fill out and I'll determine where I want my [BLEEP] money going. Not Uncle Sam. That military that protects us? Is it really us? Or is it just a hired band of men and women being used like camp fodder to deepen some fat rich [BLEEP]'s pockets some more?

I ain't buying half the [BLEEP] that's being said on here nor out there. It's a joke.

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(03-24-2023, 10:56 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-24-2023, 10:50 AM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]It's more fundamental than this.  Money (as in easily exchangeable, verifiable and divisible tokens of exchange -definition excludes raw precious metal) doesn't exist without taxation.  Taxation can exist without money (see the Roman tax code under Diocletian, or various peace treaties where payment is promised in raw gold) but there is no instance in all of history where money exists without taxation.  Money is never just a means to settle private debt.  It is always there to settle public debt as well.  People settle on one medium of exchange (a coin, for instance) out of an infinite realm of possibilities (shells, pearls, purple cloth squares) because that one medium is the medium that the government collects taxes in.

Currency itself is manufactured with tax money.

Currency is pulled out of thin [BLEEP] air by the FED and then borrowed out to the Government with an interest applied to it. It's a giant scam. A [BLEEP] scheme. It's all fiat [BLEEP]. It's backed by nothing that's tangible anymore. The US Gold Standard being whacked assured of this fact.

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(03-24-2023, 10:53 AM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]Zelensky said you must pay your taxes because he needs more guns and ammo..

Yep. More fear porn and fear mongering. Meanwhile:

https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1...0530904065

Taxation without representation folks. Don't [BLEEP] yourselves. They throw us a few bones here and there but it's not being put to good work and most of you know better than that.

The libertarian corner of my brain agrees that taxation is theft. I also believe that there's slow response tax spending because of bureaucracy.

We all entered into somewhat of a contract with our employers that a certain amount of taxes are taken out for need, such as infrastructure.

I think there would be less outrage over taxes if we saw more of a receipt on where our taxes are going.

Progress is too slow..

(03-24-2023, 12:08 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ]The libertarian corner of my brain agrees that taxation is theft. I also believe that there's slow response tax spending because of bureaucracy.

We all entered into somewhat of a contract with our employers that a certain amount of taxes are taken out for need, such as infrastructure.

I think there would be less outrage over taxes if we saw more of a receipt on where our taxes are going.

Progress is too slow..

This is my stance. Also, wouldn't hurt if the Government would stop losing trillions of [BLEEP] dollars that they cannot account for nor trace for some reason. 

I claim 0 with my employer. I overpay in taxes if anything. 

A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft.
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted. But it's tyranny, not theft.

(03-24-2023, 12:13 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]A reasonable person must yield the point that taxation is not theft. 
That doesn't mean that all taxation is justified or good.
Taxation that is too high or that is spent on things the people don't want is tyranny and must be resisted.  But it's tyranny, not theft.

Taxation is theft. I'll die on that hill. You cannot escape it. You get no say in it. Taxes fluctuate. It's rare they stay even across the board. It is then used for God knows what and to who's benefit. 

The problem is, and it all circles back to Eric's original point and posting of this situation in France. The retirement age. Right now in our country, we're getting gouged by taxes, suffering through inflation and a stagnant economy. 

Meanwhile, they continue to raise our requirement age for Social Security. It's been put out there that we may not even see it. So, right now, a good portion of your taxes are being:

A. Used predominately in areas we have no say in, no knowledge of or benefit from.

B. Used to bail out crooked, corrupted systems that are ran by crooked, corrupted people. 

C. The coffers will be dry by the time you reach, if you're lucky, the new age requirement for retirement benefits. After they took it yearly from your paycheck when you could have been saving it. 

How in the [BLEEP] is this not theft? We're being robbed. By a bogus system. I already posted article after article on this matter in the main political thread. The Federal Reserve Act of 1916 passed by Woodrow Wilson combined by that other [BLEEP] crook, Nixon, when he [BLEEP] all over the Gold Standard, our future, our freedom, our financial security for most Americans, it's been completely hijacked. 

We have no real security here anymore. You can't pay your taxes? Cool. They'll seize your [BLEEP] property. They'll seize your assets. After they've been making it increasingly more difficult to play their [BLEEP] [BLEEP] game to begin with because the table is rigged, it's tilted, in their favor. As it's always been. 

That. Is. Theft. 

[BLEEP] your Webster definition, Jack. It's THEFT.