I consider anyone who votes for higher taxes, new taxes, or continuation of existing taxes a total CHUMP. Taxes are slavery, pure and simple. You expend your labor and talents, but someone else takes a portion of YOUR PRODUCTIVE EARNINGS. Did they lift a finger to earn it? No, you did. Sure, they always promise to do great wonderful things with it - AFTER THEY KEEP A FAT SLICE FOR THEMSELVES. Vote for your own slavery? Only if you're a CHUMP.
The particular tax in question is allegedly for the Police and Fire pension plan(s). But there's a 14-year deception built in. None of this tax goes to the pension fund until 2030. So, how will they fund the pension next year, or 3 years from now, or 5 years, or 10 years from now? They will have their hands out again - SOON. That's how. Or, if they can fund it themselves for 14 years they should be able to fund it forever. A lot can happen in 14 years.
The politicians act like the ONLY solution is to take more money from the public. No, the only true solution is to let the underfunded pensions fail. Or force them to negotiate reduced payouts. If your household plans poorly for the future, you learn to live with less, or you go bust. Same should apply to them.
The other way I know this is a bad deal - it has the famous BIPARTISAN support. That equals a double bend-over for the public, and a S-eating grin for the bipartisan leadership.
They say they'll have to raise Property Taxes if we don't vote yes. But that remains to be seen. That's another issue and another fight. I'm a homeowner, but I'd rather fight another day than capitulate tomorrow. And again next year. And again 5 years from now. I'm no CHUMP and never will be.
VOTE NO
But.. but... they've spent $2.1M in marketing to tack on another $2B in debt. How can I let that money be wasted? I will vote NO, but have a sneaking suspicion this passes today.
P.S. - vote yes on Solar.
I voted yes. No one likes taxes. But- the problem is spending, not taxes. When you've already incurred the debt, you are morally and legally obligated to pay it. If you owe money, you are morally and legally obligated to reach into your pocket and pull out the money and pay the debt. And sales taxes are a lot more fair than property taxes or income taxes.
A YES vote is no skin off my back - I won't live to see the 2030 extension. And I will benefit today from no property tax increase. But I cannot vote for my own slavery.
Marty, before you talk about moral and legal obligations, show me the moral or legal contract I signed to fund somebody else's pension plan. That's what I thought - there is none.
Quote:A YES vote is no skin off my back - I won't live to see the 2030 extension. And I will benefit today from no property tax increase. But I cannot vote for my own slavery.
Marty, before you talk about moral and legal obligations, show me the moral or legal contract I signed to fund somebody else's pension plan. That's what I thought - there is none.
Slavery!
Maybe you think your car payment is slavery.
If we owe the money, we have to pay it. If you don't want to have to pay for a bad deal, then don't make a bad deal. We made a bad deal. But unfortunately, we don't have a time machine that can take us back 30 years so we can make a better deal. Now we have to solve the problem. And yes is, so far, the only solution I've seen that appears to be workable.
Quote:A YES vote is no skin off my back - I won't live to see the 2030 extension. And I will benefit today from no property tax increase. But I cannot vote for my own slavery.
Marty, before you talk about moral and legal obligations, show me the moral or legal contract I signed to fund somebody else's pension plan. That's what I thought - there is none.
It's either the sales tax, or a property tax...either way they are getting their money from somewhere. At least this way it's not just on the backs of the property owners, anyone that buys anything in Duval county is paying it too.
Quote:Slavery!
Maybe you think your car payment is slavery.
If we owe the money, we have to pay it. If you don't want to have to pay for a bad deal, then don't make a bad deal. We made a bad deal. But unfortunately, we don't have a time machine that can take us back 30 years so we can make a better deal. Now we have to solve the problem. And yes is, so far, the only solution I've seen that appears to be workable.
That's what I thought - no moral or legal contract. I didn't make a bad deal. I didn't make any deal at all. So don't include me in this "we".
Tell me, why do they allow an illegal and immoral NO vote? Isn't it a breach of your imaginary contract to vote NO?
Quote:That's what I thought - no moral or legal contract. I didn't make a bad deal. I didn't make any deal at all. So don't include me in this "we".
Tell me, why do they allow an illegal and immoral NO vote? Isn't it a breach of your imaginary contract to vote NO?
The vote is not about whether to pay the debt or not, it's voting on an option for paying it. Big difference.
I've actually never had a car payment, but If I paid your car payment, that would be slavery, just like it's slavery to pay somebody else's pension.
Quote:A YES vote is no skin off my back - I won't live to see the 2030 extension.
Where can my kid send a thank you note for this bill?
Already voted no, but not sure about the slavery thing.
Quote:That's what I thought - no moral or legal contract. I didn't make a bad deal. I didn't make any deal at all. So don't include me in this "we".
Tell me, why do they allow an illegal and immoral NO vote? Isn't it a breach of your imaginary contract to vote NO?
What you are saying is, since you weren't personally involved in setting up the police and fire pension fund, you shouldn't have to pay for it.
I don't know if you realize this, but we live in a democratic republic, also known as a representative democracy. We elect legislators and city council people and they are empowered to make contracts on our behalf. Now the local government has the legal and moral obligation to pay for things they obligated themselves, and by extension us, to pay. If you buy things, you don't have the option of refusing to pay for them.
Heck, if I followed your logic, I didn't get a chance to vote on the Social Security Act, so therefore I shouldn't have to pay Social Security taxes.
I think the hyperbole in the politics section is getting to be a bit much.
Quote:Heck, if I followed your logic, I didn't get a chance to vote on the Social Security Act, so therefore I shouldn't have to pay Social Security taxes.
I fully agree. You shouldn't be a tax slave, and shouldn't be forced to participate in a Ponzi scheme. The government didn't hold my SS contributions - they stole them and left a drawer full of IOUs. They are underfunded by $30 Trillion.
Early voting shows a 20,000+ vote advantage for slavery. Can the freedom fighters rally? Stay tuned folks.
Byronlefttown, you mentioned a 14 year deception built in. That 14 year span is part of the Better Jacksonville plan. You are going to pay that regardless. You should check out the JCCI reports, a lot of good information on what the city has tried to do to fix the pension issue over the past decade. You should also check out COJ.com to read up on the PFPF, GEPP and COPP pension plans. Find the facts for yourself, don't rely on a commercial. :thumbsup: Anywho, I think this is a big win for the city. They are going to close all three pension funds and increase employee contribution.
Thank goodness it passed. I just imagine Byron curled in a corner last night crying.
At least Corrine is gone.
I'm not crying at all. Like I said, the YES vote puts money in my pocket.
Titansquealtrash, I'm aware for the next 14 years the half-cent tax goes to retire Better Jacksonville debt. What happens to the failed pension plan in those 14 years? They go under? No, they will raise taxes in some other way to cover those 14 years, or they will go into heavy debt, claiming they'll pay it off with the half-cent tax in 2030. Of course then the half-cent won't be nearly enough to cover the more massive debt.
What will never happen is a negotiation for reducing payouts or raising individual contributions.
Slavery... So we should pay no taxes?
What is up with the complete misuse of words now adays. Reminds me of football players saying they were in modern day slavery in the NFL.