(11-13-2023, 02:01 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:32 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/11/13...ler-murray
Scroll down to find his Jags takes. I think this is where I'm at.
"But even if Taylor is running the offense this way to protect the line, he has dramatically overreacted. According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10."
Hopefully this is large enough for some of the dumb [BLEEP] to read and maybe understand...
But no, it's not the OC. It can never be our lord and savior, Press Taylor. Hallowed be thine name.
He's not protecting the line you dip [BLEEP], he's protecting our Franchise QB who is STILL getting destroyed in 2.0 every drop back. He's making chicken salad out of Baalke's chicken [BLEEP] paersonnel management. You SERIOUSLY think our playcaller should call even longer developing plays than what we're seeing get Lawrence rocked 20 times a game? Your hate for the OC blinds you to what's going on here.
(11-13-2023, 12:23 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Lets be real about something. Lawrence is a good QB but he is far from elite. In fact, Lawrence isn't even the best QB in our division because CJ Stroud has taken that mantle.
Lawrence has very mediocre numbers this year. A 90 rating (good) 9 TDs in 9 games, and 6 ints along with a ton of fumbles. Lawrence has a good receiving group. Engram is a great tight end. The production is just not there when looking at the numbers. Yesterday he looked like a pure rookie with being lost all game. He struggles against man coverage while folding like a cheap tent under pressure. I know the offensive line is a problem but sometimes the man behind the center can help the line.
This loss was not all on Lawrence. The defense fell apart along with the team just giving away the ball too much. Yes the line is a problem but that is not the whole story. Lawrence is on pace for 16 TDs and around 10 ints this year. Kirk was the only real productive player on the field yesterday. Is it players around the QB failing or is it the QB the issue? This isn't just about yesterday but the offense has been very bi-polar all year.
The OL is the problem, full stop.
Great QB is gonna take a buncha sacks or throw some ill advised passes if the rush is getting there before plays develop.
Play calls are extremely limited if the only thing you can call is a quick slant or run up the middle because everything else results in sack or lost yards.
You've got a piece of crappy meat and trying to pass it off as haute cuisine - is it the fault of the cook, the kitchen, or the meat that the meal is awful?
(11-13-2023, 02:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 02:20 PM)AnOldBrownie Wrote: [ -> ]Good article.
Puts a lot of the burn on Press Taylor and the design of the plays that the Jags run. I agree whole heartedly, and the poor redzone performance and lack of ability to get deep shots (compared to the rest of the league) bears fruit.
Trevor could be making better decisions, but if I'm being honest...I almost never see Ridley cleanly open. Sure, he gets doubled...but so do most # 1 receivers in the league and the good ones still get their numbers.
Sometimes the playcaller/designer has to help his QB/Receiver/RB.
I don't see Press doing that.
Still think the Jags have had poor LG/Center/RG performances all year long. Sure, the RT is taking his rookie lumps, but NOONE on the interior line sustains blocks. Fortner is still strength weak for a starting NFL center.
Unfortunately - Ben Solak didn't hear or read Pederson's interviews about their process offensively.
Doug has said prior to each of his seasons in Jax that he heads up a collective of his offensive coaches for designing the plays that make their way into the play book. So - while Press Taylor has fingerprints on this playbook, it is largely Doug's baby.
I'd rather be able to say it is primarily a Taylor thing, but he's just a contributor to play design and a game-day caller. It would seem Solak's play design critiques are aimed at the wrong coach. Which sucks, because its the guy we have sort-of trusted the most to get it right lately.
Whatever they can identify that is holding the offense back besides the OL (and it is mostly the OL) I really hope they find a way to improve it.
If it is installing some new plays or variations on those already in place, if it is changing play calling duties, if it is altering route trees, I don't care. I support any improvement wherever they can find it. I just don't see a sea change coming unless the OL steps up their performance.
They need to figure out a way to let Lawrence use his legs more. By design or by RPO. I haven't seen that enough this year. Again, he's at his best when he's outside the pocket.
Get him flowing in and out of the pocket. Mesh everything towards that side of his rollout, let him keep it and take off every now and then.
They have to figure out a way to keep a defense honest and on it's toes more often than not. I don't think his knee is an issue as much as people think it is. Hell, the day he had it on for the first time he looked good against the Saints.
More of that will help down the stretch. If he's going to get hit and dinged up anyway? Might as well let him get out there and earn something on the receiving end instead of just taking a loss from the pocket or worse.
(11-13-2023, 02:58 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 12:23 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Lets be real about something. Lawrence is a good QB but he is far from elite. In fact, Lawrence isn't even the best QB in our division because CJ Stroud has taken that mantle.
Lawrence has very mediocre numbers this year. A 90 rating (good) 9 TDs in 9 games, and 6 ints along with a ton of fumbles. Lawrence has a good receiving group. Engram is a great tight end. The production is just not there when looking at the numbers. Yesterday he looked like a pure rookie with being lost all game. He struggles against man coverage while folding like a cheap tent under pressure. I know the offensive line is a problem but sometimes the man behind the center can help the line.
This loss was not all on Lawrence. The defense fell apart along with the team just giving away the ball too much. Yes the line is a problem but that is not the whole story. Lawrence is on pace for 16 TDs and around 10 ints this year. Kirk was the only real productive player on the field yesterday. Is it players around the QB failing or is it the QB the issue? This isn't just about yesterday but the offense has been very bi-polar all year.
The OL is the problem, full stop.
Great QB is gonna take a buncha sacks or throw some ill advised passes if the rush is getting there before plays develop.
Play calls are extremely limited if the only thing you can call is a quick slant or run up the middle because everything else results in sack or lost yards.
You've got a piece of crappy meat and trying to pass it off as haute cuisine - is it the fault of the cook, the kitchen, or the meat that the meal is awful?
Bingo, and there's nothing the coaches can do about the fact that our guys in the middle are terrible.
(11-13-2023, 02:59 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 02:49 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Unfortunately - Ben Solak didn't hear or read Pederson's interviews about their process offensively.
Doug has said prior to each of his seasons in Jax that he heads up a collective of his offensive coaches for designing the plays that make their way into the play book. So - while Press Taylor has fingerprints on this playbook, it is largely Doug's baby.
I'd rather be able to say it is primarily a Taylor thing, but he's just a contributor to play design and a game-day caller. It would seem Solak's play design critiques are aimed at the wrong coach. Which sucks, because its the guy we have sort-of trusted the most to get it right lately.
Whatever they can identify that is holding the offense back besides the OL (and it is mostly the OL) I really hope they find a way to improve it.
If it is installing some new plays or variations on those already in place, if it is changing play calling duties, if it is altering route trees, I don't care. I support any improvement wherever they can find it. I just don't see a sea change coming unless the OL steps up their performance.
They need to figure out a way to let Lawrence use his legs more. By design or by RPO. I haven't seen that enough this year. Again, he's at his best when he's outside the pocket.
Get him flowing in and out of the pocket. Mesh everything towards that side of his rollout, let him keep it and take off every now and then.
They have to figure out a way to keep a defense honest and on it's toes more often than not. I don't think his knee is an issue as much as people think it is. Hell, the day he had it on for the first time he looked good against the Saints.
More of that will help down the stretch. If he's going to get hit and dinged up anyway? Might as well let him get out there and earn something on the receiving end instead of just taking a loss from the pocket or worse.
You keep saying this but it's not true. He's a mobile quarterback who can move around, but his best is when he's in rythym in the pocket with good protection. The very first play yesterday, go back and watch it, because more times than not that's the result of trying to move him around.
(11-13-2023, 12:37 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 12:31 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]The all 22 will reveal if Lawrence was failing to find open receivers in time. Most likely he was and it's on him. Could be as simple as not getting enough sleep on Saturday night.
They highlighted a play yesterday during the broadcast that was eye opening.
I think it was Kirk that was wide open on the right side of the field. Instead of throwing that, Lawrence forces an incomplete pass between 2 defenders. I do not see enough of the film to know how often that kind of thing happens.
Can't say I blame him, dude is probably teetering on Derek Carr levels of "get the ball out of your hands or it's another sack" by the time he gets to second read.
Hindsight is 20/20. There were a few plays I saw where a play ran, and either if a guy cuts the other way he's wide open, or he was open, but the first read was out of peripheral view - those are the things that can be picked up between series when they review snapshots or game tape. It certainly should be part of today's watchthrough. Catching those may allow you to use that play in the future and make it work.
But good gravy some of these plays you have to instantly read and throw before an end is barreling down on you.
(11-13-2023, 03:00 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 02:58 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]The OL is the problem, full stop.
Great QB is gonna take a buncha sacks or throw some ill advised passes if the rush is getting there before plays develop.
Play calls are extremely limited if the only thing you can call is a quick slant or run up the middle because everything else results in sack or lost yards.
You've got a piece of crappy meat and trying to pass it off as haute cuisine - is it the fault of the cook, the kitchen, or the meat that the meal is awful?
Bingo, and there's nothing the coaches can do about the fact that our guys in the middle are terrible.
(11-13-2023, 02:59 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]They need to figure out a way to let Lawrence use his legs more. By design or by RPO. I haven't seen that enough this year. Again, he's at his best when he's outside the pocket.
Get him flowing in and out of the pocket. Mesh everything towards that side of his rollout, let him keep it and take off every now and then.
They have to figure out a way to keep a defense honest and on it's toes more often than not. I don't think his knee is an issue as much as people think it is. Hell, the day he had it on for the first time he looked good against the Saints.
More of that will help down the stretch. If he's going to get hit and dinged up anyway? Might as well let him get out there and earn something on the receiving end instead of just taking a loss from the pocket or worse.
You keep saying this but it's not true. He's a mobile quarterback who can move around, but his best is when he's in rythym in the pocket with good protection. The very first play yesterday, go back and watch it, because more times than not that's the result of trying to move him around.
If they schemed properly and had the designs correctly it would work. Again, they need to try something different because it's not working from the pocket right now as you said due to the interior not holding up well enough.
If they can't hold the rush? Let the man flush.
Roll right with Engram in motion with him working from left to right, give him an additional underneath option there with Kirk rolling that way. Maybe we'll [BLEEP] around and get another deep shot wide open like we did with the Steelers.
Linebackers and safeties start cheating up more when guys are running and moving wide open underneath for easy yardage. This is how some of the best offenses in the NFL operate right now and they get guys wide open in certain points of the game because they don't just sit back, line up and go with it.
The only time this team seems to use motion is when it's some gimmick play that takes the football out of Lawrence's hands. The cutesy [BLEEP] with Kirk and Agnew doesn't work.
You can then maybe get some of that rhythm, up tempo pocket aspect of the offense going AFTER you do some of this other stuff first. But, going run early with Etienne and then failing at that and shutting down doesn't cut it man. Somebody has to figure this out at some point.
(11-13-2023, 01:30 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Ben Solak who writes for the ringer posted this earlier. Rings true based on what we see but didn't realize just how far behind thr league we are.
"According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10.
The Jags just don’t run receivers downfield. "
I know early in the year we were thinking thr horizontal passing game was due to oline injuries. And while the line isn't great it's not much different than last year. I'm sure Zay being out hurts as well. But I think ultimately it's just a conservative game plan. You have to stretch the defense. Everything is just too condensed.
superficial stat. Why would you bother running 15-yard routes if the line isn't giving you time to complete the 8-yard routes?
(11-13-2023, 02:20 PM)AnOldBrownie Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:32 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/11/13...ler-murray
Scroll down to find his Jags takes. I think this is where I'm at.
Good article.
Puts a lot of the burn on Press Taylor and the design of the plays that the Jags run. I agree whole heartedly, and the poor redzone performance and lack of ability to get deep shots (compared to the rest of the league) bears fruit.
Trevor could be making better decisions, but if I'm being honest...I almost never see Ridley cleanly open. Sure, he gets doubled...but so do most # 1 receivers in the league and the good ones still get their numbers.
Sometimes the playcaller/designer has to help his QB/Receiver/RB.
I don't see Press doing that.
Still think the Jags have had poor LG/Center/RG performances all year long. Sure, the RT is taking his rookie lumps, but NOONE on the interior line sustains blocks. Fortner is still strength weak for a starting NFL center.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
(11-13-2023, 03:13 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:30 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Ben Solak who writes for the ringer posted this earlier. Rings true based on what we see but didn't realize just how far behind thr league we are.
"According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10.
The Jags just don’t run receivers downfield. "
I know early in the year we were thinking thr horizontal passing game was due to oline injuries. And while the line isn't great it's not much different than last year. I'm sure Zay being out hurts as well. But I think ultimately it's just a conservative game plan. You have to stretch the defense. Everything is just too condensed.
superficial stat. Why would you bother running 15-yard routes if the line isn't giving you time to complete the 8-yard routes?
If defenses know that no one is going past 20 yards, why not just sit 10 defenders within 15 yards?
The jags are artificially creating a vertical boundary similar to being in the red zone
(11-13-2023, 02:01 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:32 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/11/13...ler-murray
Scroll down to find his Jags takes. I think this is where I'm at.
"But even if Taylor is running the offense this way to protect the line, he has dramatically overreacted. According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10."
Hopefully this is large enough for some of the dumb [BLEEP] to read and maybe understand...
But no, it's not the OC. It can never be our lord and savior, Press Taylor. Hallowed be thine name.
this begs questions.
- what percentage of our plays were excluded as 'typically shallow', and how does that compare with other teams' exclusion rate?
- what is the score when these plays are called? Maybe we should also exclude teams that are behind multiple scores late, that are throwing deep out of desperation.
- does shorter route depth lend itself to better stats elsewhere, like YAC?
Not saying it's the OC, the home grass, the color of our jersey that week, or anything else, but I want analysis that gets deeper than a singular stat to tell me anything about the situation.
(11-13-2023, 03:13 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:30 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Ben Solak who writes for the ringer posted this earlier. Rings true based on what we see but didn't realize just how far behind thr league we are.
"According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10.
The Jags just don’t run receivers downfield. "
I know early in the year we were thinking thr horizontal passing game was due to oline injuries. And while the line isn't great it's not much different than last year. I'm sure Zay being out hurts as well. But I think ultimately it's just a conservative game plan. You have to stretch the defense. Everything is just too condensed.
superficial stat. Why would you bother running 15-yard routes if the line isn't giving you time to complete the 8-yard routes?
Carp8 says the OC should be calling more 7 step drops to give the DEs enough time to really kill the QB instead of just wrecking him.
(11-13-2023, 02:19 PM)Jag88 Wrote: [ -> ]I think tank will be third string running back soon. I like him, but he doesn’t protect the ball with his stone hands.
I think Tank is gonna compete with Snoop for a spot on the PS at this rate. @Do we darft another RB next year?@
(11-13-2023, 01:30 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Ben Solak who writes for the ringer posted this earlier. Rings true based on what we see but didn't realize just how far behind thr league we are.
"According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10.
The Jags just don’t run receivers downfield. "
I know early in the year we were thinking thr horizontal passing game was due to oline injuries. And while the line isn't great it's not much different than last year. I'm sure Zay being out hurts as well. But I think ultimately it's just a conservative game plan. You have to stretch the defense. Everything is just too condensed.
Great info, Thx for sharing.
(11-13-2023, 03:21 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 02:19 PM)Jag88 Wrote: [ -> ]I think tank will be third string running back soon. I like him, but he doesn’t protect the ball with his stone hands.
I think Tank is gonna compete with Snoop for a spot on the PS at this rate. @Do we darft another RB next year?@
Probably 2, that will fix the run blocking problem.
(11-13-2023, 03:20 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 03:13 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]superficial stat. Why would you bother running 15-yard routes if the line isn't giving you time to complete the 8-yard routes?
Carp8 says the OC should be calling more 7 step drops to give the DEs enough time to really kill the QB instead of just wrecking him.
Its only 2 steps while in shot gun
TE chip on RE
RB chip on LE
hot check if they blitz
Theres ways to mitigate everything but try you must
(11-13-2023, 02:01 PM)carp8dm Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 01:32 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/11/13...ler-murray
Scroll down to find his Jags takes. I think this is where I'm at.
"But even if Taylor is running the offense this way to protect the line, he has dramatically overreacted. According to Next Gen Stats, only 7.4 percent of the Jaguars’ routes go further than 20 yards downfield—that’s last in the league by a comfortable margin. When looking at routes from just wide and slot alignments (i.e., removing routes that are typically shallow, from inline tight ends and backs in the backfield), the Jaguars are the only team with an average route depth (9.9 yards) under 10."
Hopefully this is large enough for some of the dumb [BLEEP] to read and maybe understand...
But no, it's not the OC. It can never be our lord and savior, Press Taylor. Hallowed be thine name.
I have not seen anyone praising the play calling. I think it's more like bad play calling and bad execution. It's a mixture of both not just one or the other.
(11-13-2023, 03:24 PM)jagshype Wrote: [ -> ] (11-13-2023, 03:20 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Carp8 says the OC should be calling more 7 step drops to give the DEs enough time to really kill the QB instead of just wrecking him.
Its only 2 steps while in shot gun
TE chip on RE
RB chip on LE
hot check if they blitz
Theres ways to mitigate everything but try you must
No disagreement, but they got to Lawrence with a three man rush yesterday. There's just no way an offense can function when multiple guys are getting beat on the line every play. The fact that we're 6-3 with this group is a testament to how really good our defense has been and how really good the SF front 4 are this year.
(11-13-2023, 02:19 PM)Jag88 Wrote: [ -> ]I think tank will be third string running back soon. I like him, but he doesn’t protect the ball with his stone hands.
I agree but that last int was not on him. Lawrence threw him a fastball at close range. Lawrence should of never thrown that ball. Just my take.