01-08-2024, 11:59 AM
(01-08-2024, 10:19 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a notable stat for you:
8 - 3 start
9 - 8 finish
Funny and not funny at the same time. The essence of great comedy.
(01-08-2024, 10:19 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a notable stat for you:
8 - 3 start
9 - 8 finish
(01-08-2024, 11:51 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 11:49 AM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a fun stat:
Trevor Lawrence completion percentage;
Year 1 - 59.6%
Year 2 - 66.3%
Year 3 - 65.6%
Blake Bortles completion percentage:
Year 1 - 58.9%
Year 2 - 58.6%
Year 3 - 58.9%
More fun stats:
Trevor Lawrence YPA:
Year 1 - 6.0
Year 2 - 7.0
Year 3 - 7.1
Bortles YPA:
Year 1 - 6.1
Year 2 - 7.3
Year 3 - 6.2
And perhaps most importantly:
Lawrence's first 3 years: 20-30-0 (With Urban Disaster as coach during one of those years, following a season where we went 1-15) with 1 playoff win
Bortles first 3 years: 11-34-0 with 0 playoff wins.
Let's not forget in Bortles 5th year, after he won a playoff game, he had a top 5 defense in both yards and points, and we still won only 5 games. Meanwhile, Trevor Has the 17th ranked defense and still won almost twice that.
Lol Trevor has Ridley/Kirk/Zay/Engram
Bortles had AR for a single season, Allen hurns and.. who else?
Also Doug P's system is RPO heavy a lot of screens/short passes gonna contribute to a higher cmp pct.
(01-08-2024, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles was a turnover machine. Lawrence has been as well. The difference though, is that, Bortles would throw interceptions that went back all the way for scores.
That's all I can remember about him. Damn near half the time he threw an interception it was telegraphed and returned to sender.
I'll give Lawrence that at least. His turnovers are nauseating but he's had very few INT's or FUM's go the other way for TD's. He had at least three interceptions this season that were not on him as well.
Engram being involved in two of those I believe. The missed PI in the win over Houston and the volleyball lob yesterday.
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(01-08-2024, 12:13 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles was a turnover machine. Lawrence has been as well. The difference though, is that, Bortles would throw interceptions that went back all the way for scores.
That's all I can remember about him. Damn near half the time he threw an interception it was telegraphed and returned to sender.
I'll give Lawrence that at least. His turnovers are nauseating but he's had very few INT's or FUM's go the other way for TD's. He had at least three interceptions this season that were not on him as well.
Engram being involved in two of those I believe. The missed PI in the win over Houston and the volleyball lob yesterday.
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True, Bortles sucked. But he still scored more often than Trevor.
(01-08-2024, 11:48 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 11:42 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah the fumbles have been an issue, but Bortles was way more careless with the ball through the air and his completion percentage was under 60% for his career. A comparison of years 2 and 3 for both tells a different story. And of course watching the two play and understanding context helps immensely. Bortles routinely threw picks on our own side of the field. That's not been a consistent theme with Trevor. He's generally been careful with the ball in the air though that changed a bit after the high ankle sprain.
Bortles years 2 and 3: 58 TDs 34 INTs 11 Fumbles (45 tuyrnovers)
Lawrence years 2 and 3: 46 TDs 22 INTS 22 Fumbles ( 44 turnovers )
Does it tho..
(01-08-2024, 12:28 PM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:13 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]True, Bortles sucked. But he still scored more often than Trevor.
Easy to score in Garbage Time.
A lot of Bortles stats came in Garbage time. I feel people forget this, and it's why stats don't tell the whole story.
(01-08-2024, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles was a turnover machine. Lawrence has been as well. The difference though, is that, Bortles would throw interceptions that went back all the way for scores.
That's all I can remember about him. Damn near half the time he threw an interception it was telegraphed and returned to sender.
I'll give Lawrence that at least. His turnovers are nauseating but he's had very few INT's or FUM's go the other way for TD's. He had at least three interceptions this season that were not on him as well.
Engram being involved in two of those I believe. The missed PI in the win over Houston and the volleyball lob yesterday.
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(01-08-2024, 12:36 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 11:48 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles years 2 and 3: 58 TDs 34 INTs 11 Fumbles (45 tuyrnovers)
Lawrence years 2 and 3: 46 TDs 22 INTS 22 Fumbles ( 44 turnovers )
Does it tho..
Yes, you've isolated his biggest concern which is the fumbles which isn't a reflection on his ability as a passer or QB. Many have occurred without contact as he takes off to run. It needs to be fixed and yes it's aggravating that we're now through year 3 and it hasn't significantly changed. It's a legitimate gripe.
I would have also liked to have seen more TD passes wind up on the stat sheet this year for him, but again there are plenty of guys who throw a bunch of TD passes and in turn throw a bunch of INTs because they are just throwing it up and hoping versus knowing better when to throw it or not. They don't last long as starters because they cost you games you would otherwise have won and by extension get coaches fired. Bortles is one of those guys as is Jameis Winston. They're fine as back ups, but you can't trust them for a full season.
Number of TD passes isn't necessarily a reflection of being a better QB. It requires a context of having watched the players play and an understanding of what you're seeing versus just pulling up football stats years later which as I've said to you multiple times previously isn't the same thing as looking at baseball stats. You'd body people in baseball stat conversations, I have no doubt. Here, it comes off more as an attachment to your initial negative opinion on him. He had a statistically underwhelming 3rd year for whatever reason(s) based on where expectations were. Having watched the entire season, I think the bulk of those reasons were things outside of his control that contributed to it and I believe based on what I've seen with my eyes that he and the team will bounce back next year when certain roster issues are (hopefully) properly addressed.
(01-08-2024, 12:43 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:28 PM)The Eleventh Doctor Wrote: [ -> ]Easy to score in Garbage Time.
A lot of Bortles stats came in Garbage time. I feel people forget this, and it's why stats don't tell the whole story.
Exactly. That one year where Bortles had 35 TD's to 17 INT's was mostly produced in garbage time. I remember that year, late in the 4th quarter. He throws a 90 yard TD to Allen Robinson against the Saints in New Orleans. Great pass. For being down by 30 points against a practice squad quality corner there.
This is where I get a little pissed off from my perspective. You get a lot of bottom line readers and box score readers that don't actually watch the game, they don't actually see the battle flow nor the typical downs and distances that all lead into these issues and up's and down's and twist's and turns.
The Bortles and Gabbert era's were dark. With one good year that was carried by a stout defense that feasted on an underwhelming schedule with QB challenged teams and a promising rookie season debut by Fournette and some help from Yeldon and Grant. There was nothing overly special about that 2017 season other than the defense playing out of it's mind and Bortles managing to play like Joe Flacco in the post season.
Lawrence is far from perfect. We all know that. This roster and coaching staff is all far from perfect and the decision makers in the personnel department are not helping. So, again, it's overreaction Monday for 90% of the MSM, the local's and this diehard fanbase. I get it.
Ultimately. Everybody needs to play better. Nobody is absolved from this. Not even our best football players. Where was Josh Allen on defense yesterday? Where was Oluokon? Where was Walker? We needed those guys the most in crunch time and they ultimately weren't enough with the other eight starters on defense to overcome a 28 point deficit.
They allowed a 6 win team to dictate the terms of battle from the very first whistle. Period. They ran it right up our [BLEEP]. What did our defense do? They bent over and said "Right this way please". Nobody deserves a pass for this disaster. Nobody.
(01-08-2024, 12:45 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:36 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, you've isolated his biggest concern which is the fumbles which isn't a reflection on his ability as a passer or QB. Many have occurred without contact as he takes off to run. It needs to be fixed and yes it's aggravating that we're now through year 3 and it hasn't significantly changed. It's a legitimate gripe.
I would have also liked to have seen more TD passes wind up on the stat sheet this year for him, but again there are plenty of guys who throw a bunch of TD passes and in turn throw a bunch of INTs because they are just throwing it up and hoping versus knowing better when to throw it or not. They don't last long as starters because they cost you games you would otherwise have won and by extension get coaches fired. Bortles is one of those guys as is Jameis Winston. They're fine as back ups, but you can't trust them for a full season.
Number of TD passes isn't necessarily a reflection of being a better QB. It requires a context of having watched the players play and an understanding of what you're seeing versus just pulling up football stats years later which as I've said to you multiple times previously isn't the same thing as looking at baseball stats. You'd body people in baseball stat conversations, I have no doubt. Here, it comes off more as an attachment to your initial negative opinion on him. He had a statistically underwhelming 3rd year for whatever reason(s) based on where expectations were. Having watched the entire season, I think the bulk of those reasons were things outside of his control that contributed to it and I believe based on what I've seen with my eyes that he and the team will bounce back next year when certain roster issues are (hopefully) properly addressed.
(01-08-2024, 12:43 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly. That one year where Bortles had 35 TD's to 17 INT's was mostly produced in garbage time. I remember that year, late in the 4th quarter. He throws a 90 yard TD to Allen Robinson against the Saints in New Orleans. Great pass. For being down by 30 points against a practice squad quality corner there.
This is where I get a little pissed off from my perspective. You get a lot of bottom line readers and box score readers that don't actually watch the game, they don't actually see the battle flow nor the typical downs and distances that all lead into these issues and up's and down's and twist's and turns.
The Bortles and Gabbert era's were dark. With one good year that was carried by a stout defense that feasted on an underwhelming schedule with QB challenged teams and a promising rookie season debut by Fournette and some help from Yeldon and Grant. There was nothing overly special about that 2017 season other than the defense playing out of it's mind and Bortles managing to play like Joe Flacco in the post season.
Lawrence is far from perfect. We all know that. This roster and coaching staff is all far from perfect and the decision makers in the personnel department are not helping. So, again, it's overreaction Monday for 90% of the MSM, the local's and this diehard fanbase. I get it.
Ultimately. Everybody needs to play better. Nobody is absolved from this. Not even our best football players. Where was Josh Allen on defense yesterday? Where was Oluokon? Where was Walker? We needed those guys the most in crunch time and they ultimately weren't enough with the other eight starters on defense to overcome a 28 point deficit.
They allowed a 6 win team to dictate the terms of battle from the very first whistle. Period. They ran it right up our [BLEEP]. What did our defense do? They bent over and said "Right this way please". Nobody deserves a pass for this disaster. Nobody.
You mean like the game where Bortles threw 5 TD passes in 1 game and just barely lost to the Titans because our defense couldn't stop Marcus Mariota from running for like 150 yards?
"Garbage time" lol.. Wheres Trevors garbage time stats at. We've had plenty of terrible games with him where "garbage time" would apply.
(01-08-2024, 12:45 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:36 PM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, you've isolated his biggest concern which is the fumbles which isn't a reflection on his ability as a passer or QB. Many have occurred without contact as he takes off to run. It needs to be fixed and yes it's aggravating that we're now through year 3 and it hasn't significantly changed. It's a legitimate gripe.
I would have also liked to have seen more TD passes wind up on the stat sheet this year for him, but again there are plenty of guys who throw a bunch of TD passes and in turn throw a bunch of INTs because they are just throwing it up and hoping versus knowing better when to throw it or not. They don't last long as starters because they cost you games you would otherwise have won and by extension get coaches fired. Bortles is one of those guys as is Jameis Winston. They're fine as back ups, but you can't trust them for a full season.
Number of TD passes isn't necessarily a reflection of being a better QB. It requires a context of having watched the players play and an understanding of what you're seeing versus just pulling up football stats years later which as I've said to you multiple times previously isn't the same thing as looking at baseball stats. You'd body people in baseball stat conversations, I have no doubt. Here, it comes off more as an attachment to your initial negative opinion on him. He had a statistically underwhelming 3rd year for whatever reason(s) based on where expectations were. Having watched the entire season, I think the bulk of those reasons were things outside of his control that contributed to it and I believe based on what I've seen with my eyes that he and the team will bounce back next year when certain roster issues are (hopefully) properly addressed.
(01-08-2024, 12:43 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly. That one year where Bortles had 35 TD's to 17 INT's was mostly produced in garbage time. I remember that year, late in the 4th quarter. He throws a 90 yard TD to Allen Robinson against the Saints in New Orleans. Great pass. For being down by 30 points against a practice squad quality corner there.
This is where I get a little pissed off from my perspective. You get a lot of bottom line readers and box score readers that don't actually watch the game, they don't actually see the battle flow nor the typical downs and distances that all lead into these issues and up's and down's and twist's and turns.
The Bortles and Gabbert era's were dark. With one good year that was carried by a stout defense that feasted on an underwhelming schedule with QB challenged teams and a promising rookie season debut by Fournette and some help from Yeldon and Grant. There was nothing overly special about that 2017 season other than the defense playing out of it's mind and Bortles managing to play like Joe Flacco in the post season.
Lawrence is far from perfect. We all know that. This roster and coaching staff is all far from perfect and the decision makers in the personnel department are not helping. So, again, it's overreaction Monday for 90% of the MSM, the local's and this diehard fanbase. I get it.
Ultimately. Everybody needs to play better. Nobody is absolved from this. Not even our best football players. Where was Josh Allen on defense yesterday? Where was Oluokon? Where was Walker? We needed those guys the most in crunch time and they ultimately weren't enough with the other eight starters on defense to overcome a 28 point deficit.
They allowed a 6 win team to dictate the terms of battle from the very first whistle. Period. They ran it right up our [BLEEP]. What did our defense do? They bent over and said "Right this way please". Nobody deserves a pass for this disaster. Nobody.
You mean like the game where Bortles threw 5 TD passes in 1 game and just barely lost to the Titans because our defense couldn't stop Marcus Mariota from running for like 150 yards?
"Garbage time" lol.. Wheres Trevors garbage time stats at. We've had plenty of terrible games with him where "garbage time" would apply.
(01-08-2024, 12:13 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Well Trevor is married so that’s not a fair comparison.(01-08-2024, 12:07 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Bortles was a turnover machine. Lawrence has been as well. The difference though, is that, Bortles would throw interceptions that went back all the way for scores.
That's all I can remember about him. Damn near half the time he threw an interception it was telegraphed and returned to sender.
I'll give Lawrence that at least. His turnovers are nauseating but he's had very few INT's or FUM's go the other way for TD's. He had at least three interceptions this season that were not on him as well.
Engram being involved in two of those I believe. The missed PI in the win over Houston and the volleyball lob yesterday.
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True, Bortles sucked. But he still scored more often than Trevor.
(01-08-2024, 01:26 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:13 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]True, Bortles sucked. But he still scored more often than Trevor.Well Trevor is married so that’s not a fair comparison.
-Married guy
(01-08-2024, 12:50 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:45 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]You mean like the game where Bortles threw 5 TD passes in 1 game and just barely lost to the Titans because our defense couldn't stop Marcus Mariota from running for like 150 yards?
"Garbage time" lol.. Wheres Trevors garbage time stats at. We've had plenty of terrible games with him where "garbage time" would apply.
Been down this rabbit hole already with Bortles and situational football. I am not going back down it. Feel free to dig through his game logs on pro-football-reference.com to find the same conclusions I found years ago.
Bortles had opportunities to keep his job, he found some job opportunities around the NFL in a back-up capacity. He ultimately faded into obscurity after one little brief moment in the sun.
I liked the guy. He had a fun personality, had some great soundbites, but, he was just a little too Joe Cool and laidback without the actual gusto and wins to support it. No harm, no foul. Same feelings I had for Gardner Minshew. Cool guy, just falls a little short when it matters the most.
(01-08-2024, 01:40 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 12:50 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]Been down this rabbit hole already with Bortles and situational football. I am not going back down it. Feel free to dig through his game logs on pro-football-reference.com to find the same conclusions I found years ago.
Bortles had opportunities to keep his job, he found some job opportunities around the NFL in a back-up capacity. He ultimately faded into obscurity after one little brief moment in the sun.
I liked the guy. He had a fun personality, had some great soundbites, but, he was just a little too Joe Cool and laidback without the actual gusto and wins to support it. No harm, no foul. Same feelings I had for Gardner Minshew. Cool guy, just falls a little short when it matters the most.
I think you're mistaking my dissapointment in Trevor with Bortles praise.
Bortles was terrible. Trevor has been bad too.
(01-08-2024, 01:27 PM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 01:26 PM)Jags32250 Wrote: [ -> ]Well Trevor is married so that’s not a fair comparison.
-Married guy
The difference between having a go to Receiver and being able to spread the ball around to whoever is open.
(01-08-2024, 03:16 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ](01-08-2024, 01:40 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're mistaking my dissapointment in Trevor with Bortles praise.
Bortles was terrible. Trevor has been bad too.
No. I get it. Both guys were or have been turnover prone. It's something that needs to be addressed heavily in the off season with Lawrence as well. It's a process. Going into year four it needs to be less of a process and more of an automatic, regardless of circumstance or personnel challenges.
Do. Not. Make. A. Bad. Situation. Worse.
It's either there or it's not there. More Checkdown Charlie. Less Ragtime Randy. He needs to also hit the deck more when he's running around out there and he needs to keep two hands on the football.
Not sure what he does in the off season to stay or tune up his football mechanics but he might want to incorporate a lot of bail out running scenarios and multiple practice personnel around him with heavily padded broomsticks trying to whack the football out of his hands or arms.
Also would like to see use ladders in front of him in drop back passing scenarios. To get more air under the football on deep shots. Had a few get away from him this season and it noticeably hurt. At one point he was one of the better, if not, the best deep ball passer in the NFL QB rating wise.
Not sure where he finished out there now.
(01-08-2024, 05:33 PM)jessepeck1213 Wrote: [ -> ]Trevor has a subpar stretch of games while dealing with 4 different injuries and a bunch of turnstiles on the line and cjb is back to being neurotic. I felt bad for him.when NYC would rub his face in the piss on the carpet but I won't make that same mistake again next year when Trev comes out blazing.